Southern California Manhunt

[kenny]

Lots of that going around, Kenny, especially since audio of police radio appeared online with an officer saying, "Burn that m...f...er." Here's where we get too PC if you ask me. 1. He killed how many people again? Including a cop who did great stuff for the poor & whose wife just had a baby, and a young couple who'd never met him, 2. He was given a jillion opportunities to give himself up & rather notably refused, murdering a few folks in the process, 3. He made it clear on FB he would not be taken alive & would continue killing up to 40 people he was mad at, 4. Who was supposed to die next, going to get him? He could have surrendered any time -- he DIDN'T WANT TO; instead tried to shoot as many police as possible over the 2 day firefight.

He engineered what he spent a week seeking: death by cop, whether or not he shot himself before burning up. Can't sympathize with tears & alarums for this nobody.

--- Laurie

So when crimes are really bad we just lynch the bastard, or worse, cheer on the police to do it for us.
America's justice system be damned!

Nice.

 

[luv2sparkle]

I don't know how you can blame the police for this Kenny, this guy was not going to let it happen any other way. He had no intention
of being taken in to custody. His plan was to go out in a hail of gun fire. If anyone would have insight into what would happen if you go on this kind of rampage it was him. He got exactly what he wanted.


The funeral for the fallen Riverside officer was today and the local news televised it but I couldn't watch. The officer who was killed yesterday was well loved by the mountain community. He went to Rim High and worked in the mountains as well as the Yucaipa station. It is all so sad, I have a hard time feeling anything but sadness for the families and anger against the man who committed all these crimes.

 

[KaeKae]

I watched part of the funeral today. It was very emotional, as it would be expected.

I haven't been able to follow this story closely. I do think there is a lot we don't know and may never know.

 

[kenny]

I don't know how you can blame the police for this Kenny, this guy was not going to let it happen any other way. He had no intention
of being taken in to custody. His plan was to go out in a hail of gun fire. If anyone would have insight into what would happen if you go on this kind of rampage it was him. He got exactly what he wanted.


The funeral for the fallen Riverside officer was today and the local news televised it but I couldn't watch. The officer who was killed yesterday was well loved by the mountain community. He went to Rim High and worked in the mountains as well as the Yucaipa station. It is all so sad, I have a hard time feeling anything but sadness for the families and anger against the man who committed all these crimes.

Read my posts again.
I didn't blame.
I suspected, and hoped I was wrong.

The officer being loved by the community, or your sadness, does not justify if lynch mob took justice into their own hands.

Be clear.
Separate things.

 

[JewelFreak]

So when crimes are really bad we just lynch the bastard, or worse, cheer on the police to do it for us.
America's justice system be damned!

Kenny, you're the captain in charge of the situation: how would you get him to surrender? Without murdering more people.

Realistically, if they had waited him out, he would eventually have made a run, firing as he went & killing yet more before being cut down -- suicide by cop -- or have shot himself in there, as he did. He made very clear his intention not to be taken alive -- and to take as many innocent lives with him as he could. To ruin the lives of those who loved his victims -- part of his FB screed.

What would you have done? I am seriously interested.

It's easy & feels superior to tar the entire American justice system with the brush of this one horrifyingly evil man -- who could have surrendered any time & been taken peacefully to trial but instead dealt death & destruction until trapped, unable to murder more, and killed himself. If he had wanted to live, he could have walked out of that cabin even after the tear gas was thrown. Up to the last minute. But he did not.

I don't see how the whole justice system is responsible. Enlighten me, please. I don't mean that in a snippy way -- maybe you can clear it up for me.

--- Laurie

 

[kenny]

Surround property and wait till he runs out of food/water?
Pump in some gas that puts him to sleep?
I don't know.

What's that got to do with my point that lynch mobs and vigilante justice is wrong?

 

[kenny]

Realistically, if they had waited him out, he would eventually have made a run, firing as he went & killing yet more before being cut down -- suicide by cop -- or have shot himself in there, as he did.

Speculation.

Yes, if he's firing at the police then the police are right to shoot back, hopefully to shoot the gun out of his hand if possible, not to aim to kill.
Then he could get a trial and IF found guilty (perhaps there are tons of things the cops did wrong that they lying to the media about) can be punished.

Trials are good things.
Cops showing away news helicopters so there is no oversight is a bad thing.

 

[kenny]

I don't see how the whole justice system is responsible. Enlighten me, please. I don't mean that in a snippy way -- maybe you can clear it up for me.

--- Laurie

Did I say the whole justice system is responsible?
No.

I'm speculating that the police MAY have just subverted the justice system with a football team, lynch mob, tribal mentality that burns down a house they knew contained a human being.
There was no trial, and no death sentence issued.

Again, I hope investigations determine that my suspicions are unfounded but I expect the LAPD will circle the wagons and keep reporters away.
I'm not on anyone's "side"; just on the side of what's right.

 

[TC1987]

Realistically, if they had waited him out, he would eventually have made a run, firing as he went & killing yet more before being cut down -- suicide by cop -- or have shot himself in there, as he did.

Speculation.

Yes, if he's firing at the police then the police are right to shoot back, hopefully to shoot the gun out of his hand if possible, not to aim to kill.
Then he could get a trial and IF found guilty (perhaps there are tons of things the cops did wrong that they lying to the media about) can be punished.

Trials are good things.
Cops showing away news helicopters so there is no oversight is a bad thing.

1. The guy was a killer who had already killed 2 INNOCENT people who are not part of LAPD. That alone, in my opinion, justified taking him out at the earliest possible moment. There is no need to send that killer to trial, or house him in prison at taxpayer expense or waste time and money having a trial, the results of which he's certain to appeal as many times as possible. You killed people = You gone. ASAP. I concur with the FBI analysts who said he picked weak and easy targets.
2. Then he ambushed two cops, and killed them. So, before whackko nutjob ever got to that cabin, he had killed 4 people, threatened others, and terrorized the general populace in that region as well as the police. He disrupted the lives of countless people, and kept them in fear. For days. And wasted taxpayer money by making law enforcement go into high alert and go traipsing all over the place looking for him before he kills again.
3. Then he killed another cop and wounded one while making his last stand.

Hooray for the pyrotechnic tear gas, and whoever forgot all about how about its fire hazards when they shot it into a dwelling.

Even if nutjob had a legitimate case about LAPD corruption and unfair treatment, he negated it when he started going killing civilians.

Cops showing away news helicopters so there is no oversight is a bad thing.

Ridiculous! There is a very old adage, dating back to a Civil War general, that says "Don't print your battle plans in the newspapers." Nowadays, we extrapolate that to include don't broadcast 'em on TV, don't post 'em on Facebook or Twitter, don't talk to the media, don't upload a video, don't allow news team choppers to send live aerial shots or stills to the ex-military ex-popo in the cabin so that he can see exactly what army he's facing and what equipment they have on site, where everyone is, and who might be moving the woods getting into position to launch an attack, etc.

I am 100% approving of what police and Feds did in this situation, and 100% opposed to the liberals who are giving whackk nutjob murderer any pity. If he had a case, killing civilians was not the way to promote it.

 

[kenny]

People don't need to agree.
People vary.

I feel how I feel.
So do you.

 

[FrekeChild]

I am 100% approving of what police and Feds did in this situation, and 100% opposed to the liberals who are giving whackk nutjob murderer any pity. If he had a case, killing civilians was not the way to promote it.

So you're ok with "justice" without judge, jury and trial?

The dude killed people. Maybe. Because he lost his job for speaking out about a superior officer brutalizing a suspect. The guy had all of the training of the LAPD and that of the Navy. So he was a formidable opponent for LAPD and other police departments.

Police wanted him dead. They were the hunted, of course they wanted him gone.

As an American citizen, he was entitled to trial, and innocent until proven guilty- just as you and I are. He was not entitled to being barbecued by the very people who wanted him dead.

There is a reason for laws. They protect each and every single one of us from wrongful prosecution (not sure this is the right term - I'm not a criminal attorney!). I'm not sure how that's a bad thing.

And it's probable that this gentleman was a product of his environment. Veterans do not have enough mental health resources or support. Period. Add a few concussions from playing football as a youthhttp://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...xamines-concussion-hazards-in-youth-football/ and then top it off with what sounds like a bogus dismissal from LAPD...we should consider ourselves lucky that this doesn't happen more often.

This whole situation is just awful.

 

[JewelFreak]

We are always wise to be wary of police powers, but this situation is well documented; calling it vigilantism is ridiculous. Police did what they are hired to do: protect the public, at risk to their own lives. 2 died doing so (one while sitting in a car at a light), 2 more were so injured they will probably never be the same. Others who never even heard of this Dorner died.

Because he was mad that he was fired. I was fired from my first job after college, for a dumb reason. If i'd shot everybody in the company, would I deserve your pity? Why he was axed is irrelevant. "I couldn't have a family because I lost my job, so I'm gonna kill yours," he wrote on FB. Losing your job keeps you from having a family? Thousands who get pink slips yearly go on to new work. Life is full of bumps & his was far from the worst humanity faces. Kill a beautiful constructive young woman & fiance with all life ahead, whose father tried to defend this dodo. Kill a young cop with a 7-year-old daughter & 4-month-old baby, who tried to take him in & avoid more violence. Maim their families forever. 40 more on his list still to die, plus any other police he encountered. "It's THEIR fault." Boo hoo.

He wrote he would NOT be taken alive. Do you think he didn't mean it? All his actions confirm his intentions.

Surround property and wait till he runs out of food/water?
Pump in some gas that puts him to sleep?
I don't know.

Like on tv? If such a gas existed it would've been used many times. It doesn't. What do you expect he would've done if waited out? Toddled out the door & asked nicely for water? He would have done what he did: kill himself there, or run for it & shoot more police before being shot himself. They knew he had a huge amount of ammo. He already fired at police for hours -- the longer, the more chance of another murder.

Sometimes police go overboard. Not this time. They protected citizens from a vicious killer. Thinking, no doubt, of how their own kids & wives would get along if Dorner's bullets had their names on them. We should thank them!

--- Laurie

 

[justginger]

I am 100% approving of what police and Feds did in this situation, and 100% opposed to the liberals who are giving whackk nutjob murderer any pity. If he had a case, killing civilians was not the way to promote it.

So you're ok with "justice" without judge, jury and trial?

The dude killed people. Maybe. Because he lost his job for speaking out about a superior officer brutalizing a suspect. The guy had all of the training of the LAPD and that of the Navy. So he was a formidable opponent for LAPD and other police departments.

Police wanted him dead. They were the hunted, of course they wanted him gone.

As an American citizen, he was entitled to trial, and innocent until proven guilty- just as you and I are. He was not entitled to being barbecued by the very people who wanted him dead.

There is a reason for laws. They protect each and every single one of us from wrongful prosecution (not sure this is the right term - I'm not a criminal attorney!). I'm not sure how that's a bad thing.

And it's probable that this gentleman was a product of his environment. Veterans do not have enough mental health resources or support. Period. Add a few concussions from playing football as a youthhttp://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...xamines-concussion-hazards-in-youth-football/ and then top it off with what sounds like a bogus dismissal from LAPD...we should consider ourselves lucky that this doesn't happen more often.

This whole situation is just awful.

I agree. The thought that these proceedings were supported by members of the general population disturbs me. The concept of our justice system is obviously losing respect. It shouldn't be so easy for the police to garner a carte blanche to do anything and everything.

 

[luv2sparkle]

I tend to believe that the police were trying to protect more people from getting hurt. According to his manifesto, this was exactly how he planned to go out. He stated his intentions very clearly. When someone tells you what they are going to do, you should believe them.

Police are a family. Are they worried for their own, yes. This man threatened parts of their family. They had reasons to be wary.

Is it possible, as you said Kenny, maybe. But I don't think it is quite that simple. Just because someone is angry doesn't make it vigilantism. It is not always possible for the best scenario to happen. Just because we can see it on tv doesn't mean we are privy to all the things that are going on below.

Having lived in the mountains, and living now close to where this happened, I have had contact with these officers. I have never had any reason to fear them or seen anything that made me uncomfortable with their actions. They are part of the community in a way that is different from other departments. I lived in Lake Arrowhead for 10 years and Whittier for 36. I have seen the differences.

Blame, suspected, it's all semantics, same difference really.

We don't have to agree. It's okay. No matter what, it's an awful situation.

 

[cm366]

Seems like a situation where no-one comes out cleanly. I think you'd be hard pressed to find rational people who believed that Dorner's alleged actions (killing the daughter of a man he disagreed with, and her fiancee!) were justified regardless of what persecution he may or may not have undergone from the LAPD or anyone else in his life. As Freke said, we're all products of our environment... but while that may help us understand why the murders happened, it doesn't excuse them or absolve Mr. Dorner of the responsibility to stand up and be judged for them. I've read the manifesto - it reads like the rambling screeds of many a mental health patient, and like theirs it may well contain some truth - certainly it gives us a picture of how Mr. Dorner saw the world, and seems to fit with his actions in the days preceding and following its publication, which is more than can be said for the official statements of the LA and Torrance PD.

Whether it was tactically sound to burn down the cabin with him inside - I can't comment, don't have the background in any kind of military or law enforcement. I know that it's a laughable movie artifact to say, as Kenny does, that they should have shot the gun from his hand instead of shooting to kill, but I can't believe they had any way of ensuring that there was no-one else in the cabin, nor that burning it would provide any benefit except possibly to drive him out into the police's fire. It seems obvious from the massive overreactions of police across several California departments and several days that they were more scared or angry than responsible officers would be in an ideal world, and I know that police departments around the world are studying those incidents to train their guys in what NOT to do. As L2S says, you honor the threat - but that doesn't extend to shooting up unidentified cars (and, let us not forget, the neighborhood around those cars).

I do think, though, that there are positive lessons to take away from this. The cops may be reviewing their use of force guidelines, but any employer should be paying a little extra attention to their disgruntled employees, trying to assess the substance of their claims and providing them an open and honest hearing. As with many of the mass shootings over the last few years, this seems to highlight the need for more comprehensive mental health care across the US, and to suggest that perhaps we need to find a way to bring people into that system without the stigma and loss of rights so many fear. We need more research into mental health, to better identify people at risk of harming themselves or others and more precisely define disorders for better and less invasive treatment. Few of us will ever have to worry about precisely what armament the LAPD brings to sieges, but statistically we all know someone with a mental health problem who's not getting the appropriate care. Maybe we can focus on the big problems, not the cool shoot-em-ups?