So freakin'' mad...

[heyjudes]

I just needed a place to vent, and who better than those who appreciate rings & diamonds.

I had located a seller of an antique men''s ring that had an OEC diamond in the middle of the stone. Unfortunately, the seller was located in the Chicago area and having only seen pictures of the item, I wanted to make sure I had a reputable appraiser take a look at the ring before I sent the money to the seller.

The seller was an older gentleman, the ring belonged to his father, and in the process of explaining to him why I wanted to have an appraiser look at the ring (stone, quality, damage, etc.) I gave him the name of a PS appraiser and contacted that appraiser, cc''ing the seller on the emails. Well, he took the ring to the appraiser without letting me know and let me know AFTER he spoke to the appraiser that she had said it was a higher clarity than he had presumed and that appraiser asked him how much the buyer was buying it from him for. He told her and she said that he could probably get $1,000-$1,500 more and then gave him the name of an antique store in the area.

He told me this happened and said he owed it to himself, despite us having numerous emails confirming price etc, to take the ring to this store. So he did this morning. I was so nice through the whole thing and didn''t say a word about how unethical it was for him to take the information I had provided to him and using my knowledge to make money for himself, especially after we had agreed to a price and were just working out how to get payment to one another. The vintage store offered him $500 more than I was offering and so he emailed me and told me he sold it.

I called the appraiser and left a message on Wednesday detailing the situation and wanted to speak to her to clarify what in fact had happened. I don''t want to accuse anyone if it was in fact the seller who was not being clear and didn''t let him know that we had already contacted her.

I am just ticked off right now because I put in over a week''s worth of energy with this ring and got attached to it.

I wrote back to him and basically said I was disappointed that he used the information that I shared with him as part of working out a deal to his personal benefit. And that obviously the Golden Rule doesn''t always apply.

Needless to say, I am disappointed both in not having the ring and also in this person.

Sorry - I just needed to vent. Thanks for listening. Mods, if this is in the wrong forum I apologize. I wasn''t sure if it was supposed to go here or in Hangout.

Thank you everyone for listening. I just felt like I needed to be heard.

 

[Dreamer_D]

How annoying!

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 4/23/2010 12:26:21 AM
Author:heyjudes
I just needed a place to vent, and who better than those who appreciate rings & diamonds.

I had located a seller of an antique men''s ring that had an OEC diamond in the middle of the stone. Unfortunately, the seller was located in the Chicago area and having only seen pictures of the item, I wanted to make sure I had a reputable appraiser take a look at the ring before I sent the money to the seller.

The seller was an older gentleman, the ring belonged to his father, and in the process of explaining to him why I wanted to have an appraiser look at the ring (stone, quality, damage, etc.) I gave him the name of a PS appraiser and contacted that appraiser, cc''ing the seller on the emails. Well, he took the ring to the appraiser without letting me know and let me know AFTER he spoke to the appraiser that she had said it was a higher clarity than he had presumed and that appraiser asked him how much the buyer was buying it from him for. He told her and she said that he could probably get $1,000-$1,500 more and then gave him the name of an antique store in the area.

He told me this happened and said he owed it to himself, despite us having numerous emails confirming price etc, to take the ring to this store. So he did this morning. I was so nice through the whole thing and didn''t say a word about how unethical it was for him to take the information I had provided to him and using my knowledge to make money for himself, especially after we had agreed to a price and were just working out how to get payment to one another. The vintage store offered him $500 more than I was offering and so he emailed me and told me he sold it.

I called the appraiser and left a message on Wednesday detailing the situation and wanted to speak to her to clarify what in fact had happened. I don''t want to accuse anyone if it was in fact the seller who was not being clear and didn''t let him know that we had already contacted her.

I am just ticked off right now because I put in over a week''s worth of energy with this ring and got attached to it.

I wrote back to him and basically said I was disappointed that he used the information that I shared with him as part of working out a deal to his personal benefit. And that obviously the Golden Rule doesn''t always apply.

Needless to say, I am disappointed both in not having the ring and also in this person.

Sorry - I just needed to vent. Thanks for listening. Mods, if this is in the wrong forum I apologize. I wasn''t sure if it was supposed to go here or in Hangout.

Thank you everyone for listening. I just felt like I needed to be heard.

I am not sure of all the details here but what were your terms with the appraisor?, did you arrange to pay them for an appraisal of the ring beforehand?
It would appear that the sellor had an appraisal done on the ring by your appraisor and you were left out of this transaction.

If this was indeed agreed upon in writing or verbally that you would pay for the appraisal than this appraisal should have been independant, not made privy to the sellor and the information should only have been given to you, and this appraisor should not have discussed the rings value with anyone but you.

If however you just emailed them a couple of times and this wasn''t clear, than its disappointing what happened but it might be the interpretation of the appraisor is that they were hired to appraise this ring and whomever paid them would be given the information.

This really depends on if you made it clear that you were enlisting this appraisor''s services. If you did I would be furious with this appraisor in fact I''d want to know who this appraisor was as they effectively ruined a transaction for you and I would steer clear of them in future. I can''t fault the sellor at all they have a right to get the best price for their goods.

CCL

 

[MrsBettyBoop]

That is so annoying!

Might you have offered him an additional $500? He should''ve at least given you the chance to match the price.

 

[heyjudes]

I am not sure of all the details here but what were your terms with the appraisor?, did you arrange to pay them for an appraisal of the ring beforehand?

It would appear that the sellor had an appraisal done on the ring by your appraisor and you were left out of this transaction.

If this was indeed agreed upon in writing or verbally that you would pay for the appraisal than this appraisal should have been independant, not made privy to the sellor and the information should only have been given to you, and this appraisor should not have discussed the rings value with anyone but you.

If however you just emailed them a couple of times and this wasn''t clear, than its disappointing what happened but it might be the interpretation of the appraisor is that they were hired to appraise this ring and whomever paid them would be given the information.

This really depends on if you made it clear that you were enlisting this appraisor''s services. If you did I would be furious with this appraisor in fact I''d want to know who this appraisor was as they effectively ruined a transaction for you and I would steer clear of them in future. I can''t fault the sellor at all they have a right to get the best price for their goods

I see it more as shadiness on the seller''s part. I had given him the name of the appraiser, after trying to get him to send the ring to David Atlas, and I had contacted the appraiser via email and cc''d the seller on the emails. I did tell her what was going on and that I wanted to know if I could participate in the appraisal via phone (the seller wanted to be a part of it) and that I would be purchasing this ring contingent upon it meeting parameters which would be derived based on the appraisal. I told her we were having an issue with transfer of payment and if she would be willing to serve as the middleman (holding onto the ring until Dan confirmed payment from me and released her to send me the ring).

He just went to her and what I don''t know is if she knew who he was when he met with her. I made the mistake of waiting to figure things out since we had not figured out how to send payment. I did NOT expect him to go ahead to see her. When he met with her, he did tell her that he had a buyer for the ring and that we had a price agreed upon and she knew it and that she said that he would get more than that price.

Anyways, that''s it. I couldn''t get him to send the ring to David Atlas because he didn''t trust to leave the ring without payment. But of course, as long as what happens benefits him that''s okay then. Sigh...

 

[heyjudes]

Date: 4/23/2010 1:11:27 AM
Author: Sparkles&Glitter
That is so annoying!


Might you have offered him an additional $500? He should''ve at least given you the chance to match the price.

Here''s what he wrote on his email back to me:

"I SOLD THE RING...to the woman I mentioned yesterday. She gave me $500 more than you offered; and the deal was transacted on the spot. I was tempted to call you to ask if you wanted to bid against her . But I felt uncomfortable doing that."

 

[swingirl]

The seller sounds inexperienced at selling jewelry but the appraiser should have known better than to offer a higher price for something she just appraised, especially when she knew the seller already had a buyer. However if the seller paid for the appraisal and took the trouble to take his ring to her in person then he was her client not you.

I hope you find something else that you like better.

 

[arjunajane]

argh, that would really frustrate me too heyjudes - I agree the seller did act pretty unfairly.
Especially not giving you the chance to match the extra $500- "feeling uncomfortable" seems like a weak excuse to me.

*If* the appraiser did in fact know this was the same diamond that was intended for you, I also believe she acted unprofessionally by going over your head. However, you haven''t confirmed that part. I''d be interested to hear the appraiser''s side of the story..

 

[heyjudes]

Date: 4/23/2010 2:48:14 AM
Author: arjunajane
*If* the appraiser did in fact know this was the same diamond that was intended for you, I also believe she acted unprofessionally by going over your head. However, you haven't confirmed that part. I'd be interested to hear the appraiser's side of the story..

I don't like assuming the worst of people, so I will assume that she just didn't know it was intended to me and that he went in just as any Joe Schmoe and asked for her to look at it. I did put a call into her and am just waiting for her to get back to me. I'd like to know what happened as well.

 

[Monnyjay]

Heyjude that is very disappointing for you, but it must mean that you are going to come across something much much better. Things happen for a reason it wasn''t meant to be. You will find another one you love even more

 

[heyjudes]

Date: 4/23/2010 5:10:20 AM
Author: Monnyjay
Heyjude that is very disappointing for you, but it must mean that you are going to come across something much much better. Things happen for a reason it wasn''t meant to be. You will find another one you love even more

That''s exactly what my BF keeps saying. For some reason I feel an attachment to it. I''m even considering calling the vintage store where he sold it to make an offer for it. Crazy?

 

[Monnyjay]

I know how you feel you won''t to cry. I was purchasing a ring and went to the store several times (it was always in the same place) discussing a final price etc etc and rang to say I would come in and leave a deposit (this was 1 day later, after my husband said I could have it

) and the jeweller told me he had sold the diamonds out of the ring but he would get me some new ones arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrh, I wanted to scream, my heart sunk. I just adored this ring so much. Anyway, I told him that I would take my business elsewhere (after I picked myself up off the floor). So I did and got a ring made which is 100% better than the one he had.

So I know you feel bad now but it will pass. Keep looking yours is out there, or call the shop and ask some questions

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 4/23/2010 2:04:13 AM
Author: swingirl
The seller sounds inexperienced at selling jewelry but the appraiser should have known better than to offer a higher price for something she just appraised, especially when she knew the seller already had a buyer. However if the seller paid for the appraisal and took the trouble to take his ring to her in person then he was her client not you.


I hope you find something else that you like better.

That is the key right there, the guy was the appraisers client and heyjudes was not a party to the transaction.
The appraiser provided advise to the actual client that got him more for his ring.
From the post the appraiser did not offer a higher price just pointed out a local dealer who might be interested.
If the client asked first then I don't see harm there.

If the appraiser discusses this in any way with heyjudes it would be a serious breach of privacy with his/her actual client.

heyjudes, I too hope you will find something you like even better :}

 

[heyjudes]

Date: 4/23/2010 11:24:29 AM
Author: Karl_K

Date: 4/23/2010 2:04:13 AM
The appraiser provided advise to the actual client that got him more for his ring.

From the post the appraiser did not offer a higher price just pointed out a local dealer who might be interested.

If the client asked first then I don''t see harm there.

If the appraiser discusses this in any way with heyjudes it would be a serious breach of privacy with his/her actual client.

heyjudes, I too hope you will find something you like even better :}

Hi Karl - how do I avoid getting into this problem again? I provided him the name of the appraiser as part of our discussions - he wanted to know and then he went to her without me. Should I have called her first to lock her in? He wasn''t going to let go of the ring and wanted to be part of the appraisal. Tell me how I should handle it, if there is a next time. Thank you!

 

[Allison D.]

HJ, one way to avoid this would be to buy from a more established source that has a reputation for carrying authentic vintage pieces. However, the price tag is often higher, so it''s of course harder to get a great deal.

If you insist on an appraisal, it''s less likely that you''ll get the ''good deal'' because both parties will know the approximate value of the stone.

In this instance, you didn''t pay for the appraisal, so the appraiser''s responsibility was to his paying client (seller) and not to anyone else. It doesn''t matter that the seller didn''t consider going to an appraiser until you brought it up; when he realized you were making sure you didn''t lose out, it reasonably occurred to him to do the same.

You may have reached some preliminary agreement on the sale price, but since the sale was contingent on the results of the appraisal, neither of you was obligated to complete the transaction. Had the appraisal results been less than you were expecting, I''m sure you would have used that information to revisit the price of the ring despite the prior price negotiations. That pendulum swings both ways.

It is unfortunate that the seller didn''t do you the courtesy of at least offering to renegotiate the price with you before offering it for sale elsewhere, but that''s a potential drawback of working through private parties. They aren''t as reliable or bound by typical customer service etiquette as traditional sellers are.

I''m sorry you missed out on the ring, but I have a feeling you''ll end up uncovering something even more fantastic down the line. I know your disappointment; I had a similar experience through a B&M store. I was quoted a ballpark price of $4100 for a stone thought to be a J, SI1 old euro. When the appraisal results came back at H, VS2 Transitional, the seller amended the price based on the new results to $5200. I was disappointed, of course, as it was out of budget. About a year later, I found a fantastic 2.18 OEC for a ridiculously good price, so it''s actually good the initial deal didn''t work out. It was a valuable learning experience for me and helped me make a better deal going forward.

Best of luck to you in finding a wonderful older stone!

 

[heyjudes]

Thanks Alison, it's just hard to think about it this way since my BF and I were hoping to use this as our engagement ring. I'm hoping good mojo will come along, but I think it'll take me a few more days to get over this.

It's hard when you get attached. That is the good and bad part of antique diamonds. Holy unique, they aren't as easily replaceable. And it was an amazing deal. I would have matched the price too...

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 4/23/2010 12:35:10 PM
Author: heyjudes

Hi Karl - how do I avoid getting into this problem again? I provided him the name of the appraiser as part of our discussions - he wanted to know and then he went to her without me. Should I have called her first to lock her in? He wasn''t going to let go of the ring and wanted to be part of the appraisal. Tell me how I should handle it, if there is a next time. Thank you!

There isn''t any sure way other than taking a risk and buying.
There are no 0 risk deals anywhere.

You can request they meet you at the appraisers and both go in together but if the appraisal is over the amount discussed you can bet most people will tell you to pay that amount and look for a higher offer if you wont pay it.
No one is under any obligation to sell an item until the money/goods change hands.
Even a written contract to sell at $xxx will not help in this case unless the person is in the trade in IL.
A contract can not force a non-export to sell an item under value under those conditions in IL.
It is really messy....

 

[karpouzi]

I''m going to be frank. It sounds like you found an older, unsophisticated seller (on Craigslist, maybe, it sounds like?) and wanted to get the best possible price out of him. It also sounds like his price was quite low, considering the appraisal and that a reseller (who has to make a profit) offered more than the price you were discussing. It seems you didn''t want to be bound if you ended up paying too much, but you wanted him to be bound if he ended up accepting too little. What was that you were saying about the Golden Rule?

 

[heyjudes]

So basically, I would have had to somehow get him to let me take possession of the ring by itself and then get the appraisal without him.

If I had chosen to buy it from him and the appraisal didn''t match I wouldn''t be able to have returned it and would have been out a few thousand.

Thanks everyone for listening. You live and learn!

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 4/23/2010 1:44:02 PM
Author: Karl_K

There isn't any sure way other than taking a risk and buying.
There are no 0 risk deals anywhere.

You can request they meet you at the appraisers and both go in together but if the appraisal is over the amount discussed you can bet most people will tell you to pay that amount and look for a higher offer if you wont pay it.

Karl's right re highlighted above.

HJ, there are 2 ways to approach getting an older stone. One is to buy from an established dealer that specializes in old stones. In going that route, you'll pay more, but your money is less at risk because they can provide the documentation that you'll need for peace of mind that you're getting what you paid for. ALSO, most of them have return policies, so you can get your appraisal post-purchase and return it if it isn't precisely what you'd hope.

The other way is to buy from a private party. This is riskier in a few ways. If you ask for documentation, you may be tipping the hand of the seller (as you did this time) to better understand what he has, at which point the 'great deal' often becomes less great. The only way to avoid doing that is to know enough about what you're buying to be able to confidently buy without an appraisal and put the purchase price at risk a bit.

I didn't know much about older cuts when I first started looking, so the local seller's often to get an appraisal seemed to good to be true.....and it was. Once he knew it was worth more than he originally thought, the price went up - goodbye, deal. From that, I realized that getting a grading report/appraisal pre-sale may not be in my best interest after all IF my priority was getting a good deal.

At that point, I made it a point to learn more about what the market values were and what to look for in older stones. This let me feel more confident purchasing without documentation up front with a reasonable expectation that I was getting a fair price.

HJ, since your purchase is intended to be an engagement ring, I'd really recommend that you take the slightly safer route and work through a vintage stone dealer. It sounds as though you really couldn't afford to gamble with the purchase, so think of the slightly higher pricing as your insurance that you're protecting your purchase. You really do get what you pay for, and by paying a learned, trusted expert that you can rely on, you're buying much more than just the stone.

I'm sure there are several that can be recommended to you by many of the great posters here.

 

[denverappraiser]

A service I routinely offer to private party deals it that they will schedule an appointment to come in together. I’ll inspect the piece with both present, take my pictures, do my tests and whatnot at that time. I’ll then give the ring to the seller and send them out to a waiting area downstairs with it while I talk to the buyer about my findings. We’ll discuss the grades, the pricing, the condition and anything else they want to talk about. When we’re done, they go out and make a deal (or not) with the seller. My client is the BUYER. If they come to a deal, they both come back in together and confirm that nothing changed while it was out of my sight and they’ll do the deal under my video cameras, usually in cash. If they don’t make a deal they both go their own merry way. All charges are borne by the buyer and they are NOT dependent on either the price or whether a deal actually happens at all. NOTHING is reported about my findings to the seller unless the buyer chooses to do so and the item never leaves the seller's sight until the deal is done. I don't participate in the negotiation in any way.

This approach seems to protect both buyers and sellers and many appraisers are prepared to offer a similar program that varies with the details of their facilities.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[CharmyPoo]

I might be pissed to in this situation but I don''t really see anything wrong. The seller didn''t know anything about jewelry - you wanted to protect yourself and asked the seller get the ring appraised. It turned out that he was seriosuly under charging you (if a store offered $500 more - I am pretty sure the ring is worth WAY MORE). The seller wanted a quick closing and money in hand - he sold it and finished the deal. At least he wrote to you to let you know what happened - he could have easily just ignored you after.

The thing is .. sometimes when you find a steal .. you need to just jump on it and not ask all the questions. If youw ant a zero risk transaction, you also typically would pay the associated price. In this world, the seller wants to get the most they can and the buyer wants to pay the least possible.

 

[missydebby]

Date: 4/23/2010 4:39:03 PM
Author: Allison D.

Date: 4/23/2010 1:44:02 PM

Author: Karl_K


There isn''t any sure way other than taking a risk and buying.

There are no 0 risk deals anywhere.



You can request they meet you at the appraisers and both go in together but if the appraisal is over the amount discussed you can bet most people will tell you to pay that amount and look for a higher offer if you wont pay it.

Karl''s right re highlighted above.


HJ, there are 2 ways to approach getting an older stone. One is to buy from an established dealer that specializes in old stones. In going that route, you''ll pay more, but your money is less at risk because they can provide the documentation that you''ll need for peace of mind that you''re getting what you paid for. ALSO, most of them have return policies, so you can get your appraisal post-purchase and return it if it isn''t precisely what you''d hope.


The other way is to buy from a private party. This is riskier in a few ways. If you ask for documentation, you may be tipping the hand of the seller (as you did this time) to better understand what he has, at which point the ''great deal'' often becomes less great. The only way to avoid doing that is to know enough about what you''re buying to be able to confidently buy without an appraisal and put the purchase price at risk a bit.


I didn''t know much about older cuts when I first started looking, so the local seller''s often to get an appraisal seemed to good to be true.....and it was. Once he knew it was worth more than he originally thought, the price went up - goodbye, deal. From that, I realized that getting a grading report/appraisal pre-sale may not be in my best interest after all IF my priority was getting a good deal.


At that point, I made it a point to learn more about what the market values were and what to look for in older stones. This let me feel more confident purchasing without documentation up front with a reasonable expectation that I was getting a fair price.


HJ, since your purchase is intended to be an engagement ring, I''d really recommend that you take the slightly safer route and work through a vintage stone dealer. It sounds as though you really couldn''t afford to gamble with the purchase, so think of the slightly higher pricing as your insurance that you''re protecting your purchase. You really do get what you pay for, and by paying a learned, trusted expert that you can rely on, you''re buying much more than just the stone.


I''m sure there are several that can be recommended to you by many of the great posters here.

Sound and great advice

 

[heyjudes]

Date: 4/23/2010 5:35:53 PM
Author: denverappraiser
A service I routinely offer to private party deals it that they will schedule an appointment to come in together. I’ll inspect the piece with both present, take my pictures, do my tests and whatnot at that time. I’ll then give the ring to the seller and send them out to a waiting area downstairs with it while I talk to the buyer about my findings. We’ll discuss the grades, the pricing, the condition and anything else they want to talk about. When we’re done, they go out and make a deal (or not) with the seller. My client is the BUYER. If they come to a deal, they both come back in together and confirm that nothing changed while it was out of my sight and they’ll do the deal under my video cameras, usually in cash. If they don’t make a deal they both go their own merry way. All charges are borne by the buyer and they are NOT dependent on either the price or whether a deal actually happens at all. NOTHING is reported about my findings to the seller unless the buyer chooses to do so and the item never leaves the seller''s sight until the deal is done. I don''t participate in the negotiation in any way.
This approach seems to protect both buyers and sellers and many appraisers are prepared to offer a similar program that varies with the details of their facilities.

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

Thanks so much to everyone. You are right I was trying to maximize my return while minimizing my risk and it didn''t work out well. It''s just a little touchy because it happened so quickly and yes, it was an AMAZING deal. So amazing that it was almost too good to believe so I was nervous.

Neil - If I come across this situation again, would contacting the appraiser FIRST and putting forth payment for the appraisal have protected me? The problem was the seller was in the Chicago area and I am in New York. Would you have been willing to do the appraisal with me via phone? Do you think most appraisers would be willing to do this?