small MSS (Master Stone Set)

[Serg]

I moved most interesting information about small MSS to new Topic. If I forgot something, please to add.
Please use this topic to discuss about small MSS only. Thanks.
"I am ready invest 5.000-10.000$ to small MSS

Part 1 GIA Excellent
1) Crown is fix*
2) Pavilion step 0.2 degree. 40.6, 41, 41.2, 41.4, 41.6
Part 2
click Painted crown. Same crown Pav 40.6, Pav 40.4( I want try receive Good here)
Part 3
Some GIA very good ( 3-4 diamonds)
40.4 , 40.8 + some other diamonds
*I think most interesting crown for such tests is 35 degree( 34 degree is very interesting too)
Table =57%

http://www.diamondcut.gia.edu/charts/57_table.html

All ideal symmetry. Clarity an color are good for sells. Diameter 5-6 mm
I will send all diamonds to GIA and AGS.
This MSS will available for different appraisers and consumer research at least 3 months.
Welcome to invest Money, Time, Ideas, service. Hope Garry will help.
Our study will open during all steps.
Garry:
M = master S=stone S= study
Put me down for $5,000 Sergey - I guess we will get some or most of that money back after we sell the diamonds - and we could ask the labs to refund their fees perhaps - most of the stones would never be saleable with those reports.
1) Crown is fix 34, 34.5 or 35 within .2 degrees would be good. Table should be between 55 and 58% ???
40.4 , 40.8 + some other diamonds I would like to start at 40.0 then 40.2
Part 2
click Painted crown. Same crown Pav 40.6, Pav 40.4( I will try receive just Good here) why so shallow? Painting makes a stone appear more shallow.

All ideal symmetry. Clarity an color are good for sells. Diameter 5-6 mm The bigger the better - say 3/4ct - in a perfect world the stones are all either the same diameter and different weights - but all in the same weight / price grid - or the same diameter but different weights. This is what i tried to do with my Diamond Dock study.

Sergey:
re:The bigger the better - say 3/4ct - in a perfect world the stones are all either the same diameter and different weights - but all in the same weight / price grid - or the same diameter but different weights. This is what i tried to do with my Diamond Dock study.

Garry, I prefer same diameter for all diamonds. 6mm<>3/4 ct
Rhino:
I too am interested in garnering results for this as well. I think I know some manufacturers (MSS?) who are up for the task. Matter of fact, Paul Slegers, if we give him a model can basically duplicate it. I recently had a feww new stones cut by him for experimentation and research on a new line we are considering to stock and he did a rather remarkable job of duplicating the DiamCalc model I forwarded to him. If you''d like to compare his results with the model I sent I''ll show you the comparisons in email. I would be willing to put up some cash as well for this and will help sell the test stones once all the testing is complete by whomever you have participate.
Sergey:
Paul has not Helium. I prefer big Indian manufactures with Helium( more possibility for selection and more cheap for our type work)"

 

[pricescope]

Please stay on the topic in this thread. Off-Topic posts will be removed.

 

[strmrdr]

Im broke but....
I will help in anyway I can.
I might be able to have my sister get together 10-12 people for a diamond party and review them.

 

[oldminer]

Garry and Serg: I would be pleased to contribute to a worthy study. Garry has some funds of mine overseas and we can privately discuss the amount as Garry will deduct it from my nest egg.

I wonder why the master set is necessary if calculating performance with software does the job. Why do you need physical stones? For human observation testing? What do you feel will be gained by the master set over what the complex ray and beam tracing offer?

 

[Serg]

Date: 3/20/2006 1:59:43 PM
Author: oldminer
Garry and Serg: I would be pleased to contribute to a worthy study. Garry has some funds of mine overseas and we can privately discuss the amount as Garry will deduct it from my nest egg.

I wonder why the master set is necessary if calculating performance with software does the job. Why do you need physical stones? For human observation testing? What do you feel will be gained by the master set over what the complex ray and beam tracing offer?

Dave,

1) See my first post"I will send all diamonds to GIA and AGS.This MSS will available for different appraisers and consumer research at least 3 months."
2) OctoNus software does not do any CUT grade.
3) Result in different tests group will different

 

[dhog]

I can help doing consumer testing and /or
anything that doesn''t require scientific
research.

 

[oldminer]

I''d also like to do an ImaGem study of what we can measure. I don''t really understand Sergey''s reply to me, but I imagine he means well. Will someone explain it to me, please?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I am very used to Sergey''s short and concise wording dave - I will explain

Date: 3/20/2006 2:08:32 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 3/20/2006 1:59:43 PM
Author: oldminer
Garry and Serg: I would be pleased to contribute to a worthy study. Garry has some funds of mine overseas and we can privately discuss the amount as Garry will deduct it from my nest egg.

I wonder why the master set is necessary if calculating performance with software does the job. Why do you need physical stones? For human observation testing? What do you feel will be gained by the master set over what the complex ray and beam tracing offer?

Dave,

1) See my first post''I will send all diamonds to GIA and AGS.This MSS will available for different appraisers and consumer research at least 3 months.''Yes- Imagem and AGA fit under this criteria Dave
2) OctoNus software does not do any CUT grade.To grade cut you need polish, symmetry info as well as light return, fire, bad contrast (dark zones from leakage, dark zones from head obstruction), the amount of tilt before you see girdle dark zones, good contrast and a host of other factors, including an agreed weighting for face up as well as a certain amount of tilted weighting - stereoscopic and perhaps a little allowance for monoscopic negative effects (like table darkness). Durability - I envisiage a sliding girdle thickness scale where under 32 crowns must be at least Meium for top grades and under say 28 degree crowns must be at least slightly thick - where as +37 crown angles could have almost extremely thin girdles.
DiamCalc does a tiny bit of this stuff - but is way of being a cut grading system.
3) Result in different tests group will different I think Sergey means that there will be some observation testing to identify some of the above??

 

[Rhino]

Hi Sergey & Garry,

Question: What happens to MSS after the experiment?

Just have to do check with the master cheese here and fill her in on all details before I make a committment but I am interested in participating in any way I can.

Peace,
Jon

btw ... I have some estate diamonds here we may want to consider for the task. Perhaps recutting? Do an advanced search on our site, check off the "optical symmetry" feature then search only for diamonds with "common" optical symmetry and you''ll see some we have here that can perhaps be used for this.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 3/21/2006 12:16:35 AM
Author: Rhino
Hi Sergey & Garry,

Question: What happens to MSS after the experiment?

Just have to do check with the master cheese here and fill her in on all details before I make a committment but I am interested in participating in any way I can.

Peace,
Jon

Jonathon I expect that those who put in funds will get some or most back after the study when we sell the stones.

We may decide to keep some stones in a permanent collection - but I am sure we can find a way to accomodate everyone who wants to contribute funding or goods.
There will also be some costs for shipping and lab fees etc.

We could take loans to be repaid at the conclusion, and we could take permanent contributions.

I am sure we can arrange levels of corporate naming rights for various levels and types of contributors.

Major sponsor.
Sponsor

Right the way down to
Appraiser participant
Retail participant
shopper volunteer participant (Prosumer?)

So far we have OctoNus $5-10k
Ideal-scope $5k
AGA / Imagem $?


I estimate we need around $40,000.
Sergey?

 

[JohnQuixote]

Per Brian: We will gladly contribute/assist with these efforts. We have an array of possibilities to put forward; cutting facilities, materials, etc.

 

[RockDoc]

Rockdoc will contribute B Scope verifications, ASET Photo Imagining, Firescope, etc. services..

Perhaps some consumer opinions too.

Rockdoc

 

[Serg]

Rhino, Garry

I will send full answer tomorrow.

 

[WinkHPD]

I am a small player in this, but I feel the information is important. I will donate $500 to the cause and am happy to look at the stones with the limited equipment I have here. I have the Microscope, the Firescope, the ASET scope table model, the Idealscope and two good, if somewhat old, eyes.

Let me know when and to where to send the money.

Wink

 

[He Scores]

I would be willing to set up the MSS stones as a BrayScore account and give free scores on the stones. Also, I would be willing to offer some free cutting service on a stone or two.


Bill Bray
Diamond Cutter

 

[denverappraiser]

I too am a small player but would be happy to assist in any way I can. I could offer logistical support as a secure US location to collect and distribute stones as they travel between their various destinations in the project as well as free Gemprint services.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Serg]

I had write answer( on Russian) and send to Leonid for translation. He was very nice to gave promise to translate my text( before he received it)

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 3/22/2006 1:15:15 PM
Author: Serg
I had write answer( on Russian) and send to Leonid for translation. He was very nice to gave promise to translate my text( before he received it)

If Leonid can translate text before he receives it, he has a valuable skill indeed.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[pricescope]

Enjoy, y'all

Let’s start with what is going to happen with the set (MSS) at the end of the study.

By completion of the study, I suggest sponsors to vote whether MSS should be sold. If yes, the set should be auctioned. Otherwise, those who want to keep the set can buy it at cost. Money should be returned based on the contributions.

In order to keep the data, I suggest the following mechanism:

MSS will be rented to anyone. Those who want to rent it for 1–2 weeks must pay:

1. Shipping and insurance
2. 0.5% of the cost for the first week
3. 0.7% of the cost for the second week
4. 2 weeks should be the maximum rent period.

Should demand for such MSS be permanent, they will be refreshed. Otherwise, either they won’t be available or we should find another mechanism of financing for similar studies.

MSS should be available on such conditions for one year. One year is a minimal period. Decision about its liquidation can only be made after one year.

Priority of utilization during the first year

1. The Cut Group (the core of the group, which producing/financing the collection) – three (3) month during first nine (9) months
2. Sponsor’s group (contributed not less than $5,000): one week per $5,000 but no longer than 2 weeks per sponsor. Not more than one week per month. In order of contributions.
3. Anyone who submit a program of the experiments, which will be accepted for realization. In this case, expenses for delivery should be compensated from the fund. However, the researchers should provide all the results of the experiments. The experiments should be thoroughly documented in order to be repeated by other researchers. Not more than 2 weeks per month.
4. Anyone who is interested to compensate expenses on shipping and insurance and 0.5%/week (no longer that two weeks/month). Those who agree to provide the results and conditions of the experiments will have priority in that group.

Major expenses

1. Cutting of the stones according to very strict specifications. 10 – 15 stones ($30,000 - $40,000)
2. Grading by GIA, AGS, and IGI including shipping: about $5,000
3. Testing. Two kinds:
   1. By third parties. The one who’s testing should cover shipping and insurance. In some cases these expenses can be covered from the fund of the study.
   2. Testing either by the members of the Cut Group or under control of the Cut Group member. This is required to insure equal experimental conditions throughout all the tests and correctness of the tests. Main problem here is to find knowledgeable and respected representative who would agree to travel, participate in the experiments and document the results. Compensations of such expenses will become significant part of the budget. We need to find very good person for this role/job.
   This (third) part of the budget can be from $20,000 to $50,000 (should be corrected based on required travel expenses)
4. Processing and analysis of the results. We’ll need help in processing and presenting of the raw data. Processing, analysis, checking of theories… preparing articles for publications

 

[pricescope]

Goals of the work

1. To evaluate adequateness and agreements of the major labs on the cut grades for Steep/Deep and Shallow cuts as well as painted girdles grades in open scientific experiments.
2. Develop a method and mechanism to control quality of the laboratory’s work
3. Education and promotion of the benefits of the open researches to consumers
4. Search of the constant mechanism to finance of such studies to ensure high quality of the studies and their independence from the financial sources.

Rights on the results

All the raw data and experimental conditions will be published in open sources.

All rights of the results of the analysis, articles, conclusions, etc, will belong to the authors of the scientific works.


Where to send the money

Has to be discussed. Large sum of money better to keep in one place, small ones - no reason to transfer. An accountant may be appointed to keep track of all contributions.

There is no urgency in transferring funds. We’ll start the work next week using Octonus and Garry’s resources on the first step. It should be enough for 1-2 months. During this time we should develop the mechanism of financing and spending.

 

[pricescope]

Responsibilities and Decision Making


There will be no board of sponsors. There will be strict hierarchy. At the beginning, most of the decisions will be taken by me (Serg). As more competent executives will join the project, I (Serg) will be happy to delegate responsibilities.


Most urgent responsibilities to delegate:

1. Financials and material accounting
2. Planning of the research
3. Management and shipment of the specimens
4. Specimen’s quality control (I’ve got a candidate for this role)
5. Legal work required for the contracts
6. Organization of the testing
7. Preparation and publication of the results
8. Documentation of good suggestions during discussions (Strict control must be implemented during open discussions of the methods, directions and results of the work). Everything valuable should be recorded.

 

[pricescope]

As you can see, we need active members on the first place who will do quite a bit of organizational work. To compensate their job on the first stage of the project from our budget won’t be possible. If the experiment will be successful, work of the key experts should be compensated on the permanent basis. However, we still won’t be able to manage without volunteers.

As collateral, I (Serg) guarantee return of all contributions (up to the budget limit of $100,000) if the project won’t be completed successfully (goal #1 above) within 1.5 year. (I expect first serious results before the end of 2006).

These are just some preliminary suggestions. Hope this clarifies goals and methods as well as forms of participations and amount of contributions. It is desirable to develop a system that will improve as we progress. We should be able to obtain serious results and avoid silly mistakes by employing many participants without taking much time from each one of them.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Sponsors must contribute more than $5k, but there will be some who contribute more thnan others - to recieve a promotional benefit.

Sponsors could be any lab, even GIA, Brilliancescope, ISee2 and ImaGem, Diamond manufacturer, retailer, De Beers, e-tailer, diamond wholesaler or consumer.

BUT -sponsors can not control the method or goals or results in this study - it will be open. As Sergey says: a Board is absent.

I was worried that the cost per stone will be higher because they will be cut to order - rather than bought in the market - but Sergey envisons we will tender to big manufactures - the winner / winners will benefit from the prestige of cutting to such high tolerances. Imagine - lower girdles, stars, girdle profiles and every facet angle and azimuth will need very tight control.
And everyone will be able to check the stones (unlike other studies done behind closed doors) because the Gem files and DiamCalc files will be public.

I am not in favour of bothering with painted / dug stones - but Sergey thinks it is a problem for manufacturers who need tolerances and guidance.

For the original MSS (at one time even HRD) study - we planned to use light boxes that would be very expensive. Sergey is working out how to do this in different places where diamonds are bought and enjoyed...........watch this space..........

So all those who think there could be a benefit for their business by investing +5k - talk to your Boards (or wives?).
All those who have some time, expertise or plain old interst - we will need you.

I imagine we will need to make some pricescope gatherings - eg there is a big group in washington / Philly area.

And all the Cut Group will be in san Deigo in late August early September (GIA Symposium) - so perhaps the SW costers could ride their boards down?

Vegas Fair in June is probably too soon to create the first master stones.

Another trade opportunity could be Hong Kong trade fair in September - and then Tucson in Early Feb 2007 - then HK again in March - followed by Basel in April.

And we will probably need a host organization for the II Diamond Cut Conference in about 1 to 1 1/4 years time.

By then we should have some initial findings.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Leonid/Serg and Garry,

Thank you for presenting clear information. We look forward to more details and directions.