Size vs. Cut (H&A or not)

[aquanaut]

Hi all,

So my gf is not very knowlegeable about diamonds and views everything through a "size lense."
Even when we went to look at various settings it seemed that she focused on the size of the main stone more than anything else.

I have identified that H color and eye clean VS2/SI1 (RB, btW) is where I want to be.

However, I am having a hard time deciding about CUT.

This weekend I went to a local store to look at HOF and compare with regular GIA Excellent and VG.
The salesperson gave me two lose diamonds and told me to identify myself which one I think is which. One was HOF and one GIA VG.

Even though I consider myself an extremely meticouls person and have eagle eyes I had a VERY hard time determining which diamond had better sparkle. I have watched all of the GOG videos carefully, and while I could see a difference in those videos I could not identify any difference in real life.

So the question, if size is the main preference, would you advise to go GIA VG or excellent over H&A?
I am under the impression that when comparing a poorly cut stone with H&A the difference is huge but when comparing between a very well cut stone and H&A then the difference is miniscule
Or is the cut something that just requires a trained eye and I will regret not getting later as we become more "seasoned."

Lastly, looking at 2.5-3ct so the price difference and supply is very significant.

Would appreciate any thoughts from the pros out there!

 

[Lorelei]

Hi all,

So my gf is not very knowlegeable about diamonds and views everything through a "size lense."
Even when we went to look at various settings it seemed that she focused on the size of the main stone more than anything else.

I have identified that H color and eye clean VS2/SI1 (RB, btW) is where I want to be.

However, I am having a hard time deciding about CUT.

This weekend I went to a local store to look at HOF and compare with regular GIA Excellent and VG.
The salesperson gave me two lose diamonds and told me to identify myself which one I think is which. One was HOF and one GIA VG.

Even though I consider myself an extremely meticouls person and have eagle eyes I had a VERY hard time determining which diamond had better sparkle. I have watched all of the GOG videos carefully, and while I could see a difference in those videos I could not identify any difference in real life.

So the question, if size is the main preference, would you advise to go GIA VG or excellent over H&A?
I am under the impression that when comparing a poorly cut stone with H&A the difference is huge but when comparing between a very well cut stone and H&A then the difference is miniscule
Or is the cut something that just requires a trained eye and I will regret not getting later as we become more "seasoned."

Lastly, looking at 2.5-3ct so the price difference and supply is very significant.

Would appreciate any thoughts from the pros out there!

Hi Aquanaut,

It depends on the stone, GIA VG and Excellent are not created equal so what I would suggest is to thoroughly inspect each diamond if you are buying from a jewellery store to make sure which ones you like best, and post all the proportions and info that you have here, we can help you narrow the field.

We can't tell you which is best to choose out of the various cuts available as beauty and preference is so subjective, I would say to make sure all the diamonds you are considering are in fact well cut, then inspect them away from any bright store lighting to make sure of how they will look when worn in everyday lighting conditions, then choose the one that ' speaks' to you the most. You might find when comparing well cut non h&a to h&a that the non h&a has sufficient beauty and performance for you - and that is fine - but make sure you do compare as many diamonds as possible in order to have a good base of comparison.

You are definitely on the right track with comparing HoF to non h&a stones, I would see if you can view both away from any bright lighting in the store, this could make any differences in appearance and performance more apparent.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Lorelei gave you a better reply, but I will just say that I would stick with GIA excellent just for the mental aspect! I do not think a stone has to be a perfect H&A stone to be beautiful. However, I just can't see going with less than excellent cut when you have the choice. You can have very good on polish without sacrificing overall quality.

 

[tyty333]

I agree with the ladies, you dont have to have H&A to have a beautiful stone. If your GF preference is size, then you might
want to put that extra money into a larger well cut non-H&A stone.

 

[yssie]

H&A is not specifically a representation or endorsement of cut quality, it is simply a measure of optical symmetry.

A stone may show lovely hearts under a hearts viewer but leak under the table. Conversely a stone may have poor hearts but be a bright, lively stone. A stone may have excellent optical symmetry but show strangely-shaped (or even no) hearts - take a look at GOG's modified H&As, they have "untraditional" hearts and arrows formations but the symmetry 'round the stone is clear in the H&A viewer pics.

Most branded H&A stones will be proportioned and finished such that they are graded GIA EX or AGS0, because the top cut grades carry a premium, and if a manufacturer is going to spend extra time and energy precision cutting the stone to show nice hearts and arrows he is also going to do everything he can to ensure that he will be able to sell it for as much as possible. Vendors that have H&As cut for them will also often have specific generally-crowd-pleasing proportions criteria that their branded stones must fulfill - a more exclusive line becomes exclusive by excluding [other combinations], and keeping proportions requirements narrow and constant such that their stones all have the same "look" and "feel" about them is an excellent way to ensure brand continuity and promote brand recognition.

Vendors usually have especially generous policies for their branded stones - buyback, upgrade, trade-in, etc. These stones are often on-site so that if a buyer wants something checked - eyeclean to some specific requirements, colour, etc. the vendor has it right there and can look at it right away, no waiting for it to be shipped in, no worrying it will sell before you can see it...


The biggest factor in determining how a stone performs is its proportions. High optical symmetry adjusts the nuances, and you may or may not see the effects when you compare a "traditional true H&A" with a near-H&A of v similar proportions - for example, high optical symmetry will increase average virtual facet size, which I know theory demands permits bigger, bolder flashes from a stone of given proportions, in practice despite knowing what I should be seeing my eyes are consistently unable to find any difference in any lighting conditions.

GIA VG is, as PPs have said, a large range. So is GIA EX for that matter. GIA grades cut by proportions - there are specific ranges for the various parts of the stone for each cut grade, but the way all the facets work together as a full unit is not considered beyond some basic correlations... thus you will find certain combinations of proportions that fall outside GIA's EX range, but that work together to make for beautiful stones - steeper crown/shallow pavs are the first to come to mind. This is where AGS shines with the DQD light performance analysis - a 3D ray tracing simulation is done on the proportions in question, and to gain the coveted 0 cut grade the stone must 'excel' in both this simulation and meet certain proportions requirements (which are different from GIA's requirements, EGL's requirements, the HCA's requirements, etc.. all these labs and tools have different criteria for their "top" grades, so make sure you are comparing apples to apples). To gain the 0 cut grade from AGS or EX from GIA a stone does not need to exhibit excellent optical symmetry.

A H&A is usually a very specific aesthetic (again, GOG's modified H&As, which have a variety of proportions, will look different and perform visibly differently thanks to these differing proportions). Some people like the "look", some people prefer a different look for a different piece of jewellery - say, shallower stones with larger tables. A manufacturer may precision-cut a shallow stone with excellent optical symmetry, but if it does not also meet the proportions requirements of a given brand, it will be excluded from the line and so will not command the brand premium.

Long story short - IMO H&A is not for someone trying to maximize other considerations on a given budget. An AGS1 that missed 0 cut grade because of EX pol/symm, or a GIA VG that looks spectacular but has individual proportions outside the EX range can be excellent value for the money. But these stones may take time to find, buyer does not have the conveniences of choosing an in-house stone, upgrade/trade/buyback policies may be less generous.

 

[slg47]

Hi all,

So my gf is not very knowlegeable about diamonds and views everything through a "size lense."
Even when we went to look at various settings it seemed that she focused on the size of the main stone more than anything else.

I have identified that H color and eye clean VS2/SI1 (RB, btW) is where I want to be.

However, I am having a hard time deciding about CUT.

This weekend I went to a local store to look at HOF and compare with regular GIA Excellent and VG.
The salesperson gave me two lose diamonds and told me to identify myself which one I think is which. One was HOF and one GIA VG.

Even though I consider myself an extremely meticouls person and have eagle eyes I had a VERY hard time determining which diamond had better sparkle. I have watched all of the GOG videos carefully, and while I could see a difference in those videos I could not identify any difference in real life.

So the question, if size is the main preference, would you advise to go GIA VG or excellent over H&A?
I am under the impression that when comparing a poorly cut stone with H&A the difference is huge but when comparing between a very well cut stone and H&A then the difference is miniscule
Or is the cut something that just requires a trained eye and I will regret not getting later as we become more "seasoned."

Lastly, looking at 2.5-3ct so the price difference and supply is very significant.

Would appreciate any thoughts from the pros out there!

what lighting did you look at the stones under? I would take them by a window out of the spotlighting to see what you prefer. Also as the others have mentioned not all GIA EX or GIA VG are equal, so it is important to consider each stone's proportions on an individual basis (this article might help https://www.pricescope.com/journal/laboratory_cut_grades_what_report_doesn’t_show)

but to answer your question, if size is the main preference, I would not go with a H&A cut but I would go with a GIA Ex or AGS0 with good numbers/idealscope image.

 

[geckodani]

Lorelei gave you a better reply, but I will just say that I would stick with GIA excellent just for the mental aspect! I do not think a stone has to be a perfect H&A stone to be beautiful. However, I just can't see going with less than excellent cut when you have the choice. You can have very good on polish without sacrificing overall quality.

I try not to ditto, but ditto.

 

[yssie]

Some reading you may find interesting:

PS H&A wiki here
Article on EX cut as evaluated by GIA here
Thread on visible diff btwn H&A vs non-H&A here
Thread on history of H&A and comparison images here Esp. look at the AGS0 pic John posts in the middle of the page, great example of physical/optical symmetry non-correlation
Longer symmetry analysis here