single white male seeks LED

[drburka]

subject: Single white male seeks large emerald diamond to help him not be single anymore.

Ok, first of all, let me say this forum has been incredibly useful for me and I''m sure countless others who never post here. I''ve spent the last two months searching for a diamond engagement ring for my GF. I''ve looked at well over 50 diamonds and finally have it narrowed down. Now that I''m at the end of my search though I have a bit of conundrum.

Here are the definites:

I want an emerald cut diamond - A max color of G and eye clear so probably a VS2 (although I did see one VS2 that wasn''t really eye clear).

The bottom line is that this ring my girlfriend will have for a long time. It is NOT for resale ever. I don''t care about the value of the stone (except to the extent that I don''t want to pay more than it is worth) - but I want it to look nice. So my primary concern is how it looks not the value or any specific numbers.

Having said that and having already said I''ve looked at over 50 stones, I saw one today that I absolutely loved. But first here is a bit of a story.

I''m now working with a jewler who has been in business in the same location for over 33 years. My parents have bought things from her for about 20 years and I trust her implicitly. She has an apraiser who is GIA trained in her store, this apraiser worked with my great grandfather 40 years ago (my great grandfather was a ring maker back in the day) and my parents have worked with him more recently as well. Initially I was looking at ONLY certified stones. Last week the jewler asked me if I would consider an uncertified stone - I initially said no, but, when I got to my car and thought about it I went back in and told her I would consider it. The reason I changed my mind was that I really trust her and as I said before I don''t really care about what grade the stone is and what color the stone is - I care much more about how it looks to me. If its beautiful but the fact that a piece of paper doesn''t come with it makes it less desirable to some then hopefully it will be a good deal for me. Additionally, the jewler said that any diamond I bought could be conditional upon my taking the diamond to an outside independent apraiser and the independent appraisers assesment of the diamond.

Having said that 3 days later she got a stone for me to see. I should preface this by saying that most of the stones I have seen until now have been what most people consider ideal specs, table of about 64%ish, depth about 63%ish, no fluor, excellent polish and symmetry, ratio of about 1.4.

Today I looked at this uncertified stone. I was floored as soon as I saw it - it was absolutely the most beautiful stone I''ve seen so far (to my eye) by about 10 fold. It is however, by the numbers, far from what most would consider ideal. The appraiser at the store looked at it and here is how he rated it:

Cut: Emerald/Victorian cut
Carats: 1.77
Dimensions: 10.1X6.19X2.9
Color:G (to be honest to my eye it was the clearest diamond I have ever seen)
Clarity: VS1 (when I looked at it with loupes, I saw several incclusions and to be honest it looked more like VS2''s that I have seen - but I''m certianly no expert and it''s eye clean so who cares?)
Table: 58%
Depth: 54%
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Flour: Slight
Girdle: Slightly thick to thick
Cutlet: None

I personally looked at the stone in multiple types of light - in the stores brightest area, another area of the store where it was dark, outside in direct sunlight, I even went into the bathroom and turned out the lights (although I was scared I was going to drop it in the toilet). It was amazing in every light possible.

So here are my questions:

1. Am I being a fool here? I know the prevailing wisdom is never to buy a stone that doesn''t have a certificate - but if I trust the jewler, have an independent apraiser look at it as well then wouldn''t I really be a fool to pass up the most beautiful diamond I''ve seen by 10X just because it doesn''t come with a piece of paper? I should also note that it''s really not about the price savings - that''s a nice bonus but I personally think this diamond should be more valuable then any of the others I''ve looked at that were 5-10K more expensive.
2. Again, I know that the numbers for this diamond are what some would consider sub-optimal. Particularly, the dimensions (very skinny - pancake like diamond), small table, depth and the slight blue fluor as well (something I did''t even really see in any of the lights). If despite these numbers I still think it looks amazing then do the numers matter?
3. Given what the numers are would anyone have any specific concerns. Anything in particular I should look at or consider? Any specific lighting conditions I should spend extra time evaluating?
4. From the side it does look very skinny (2.9 depth) but when in a setting I do''nt think I would even notice unless you put it next to a diamond that is thicker. Any concerns that it is so skinny?
5. The price right now stands at $9000 and I suspect she would come down some from that. I don''t really know how to appropriately value the fact that it doesn''t have a cert., she says it was just cut and so hasn''t been sent for certification yet. Any thoughts on how to appropriately value the fact that it has no certificate?
6. Finally, it is a victorian cut (some type of emerald cut but slighly different). I noticed a small difference from the traditional emerald cut but I couldn''t really put my finger on what it was. I can''t find too much info about said cut. Any thoughts?

AGain, I really appreciate everyone''s help. Even though you haven''t answered me sepcifically yet, all of the information on these forums has been invaluably helpful.

Cheers and happy holidays to all.

Doug

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 12/18/2009 12:52:35 AM
Author:drburka
subject: Single white male seeks large emerald diamond to help him not be single anymore.

Ok, first of all, let me say this forum has been incredibly useful for me and I''m sure countless others who never post here. I''ve spent the last two months searching for a diamond engagement ring for my GF. I''ve looked at well over 50 diamonds and finally have it narrowed down. Now that I''m at the end of my search though I have a bit of conundrum.

Here are the definites:

I want an emerald cut diamond - A max color of G and eye clear so probably a VS2 (although I did see one VS2 that wasn''t really eye clear).

The bottom line is that this ring my girlfriend will have for a long time. It is NOT for resale ever. I don''t care about the value of the stone (except to the extent that I don''t want to pay more than it is worth) - but I want it to look nice. So my primary concern is how it looks not the value or any specific numbers.

Having said that and having already said I''ve looked at over 50 stones, I saw one today that I absolutely loved. But first here is a bit of a story.

I''m now working with a jewler who has been in business in the same location for over 33 years. My parents have bought things from her for about 20 years and I trust her implicitly. She has an apraiser who is GIA trained in her store, this apraiser worked with my great grandfather 40 years ago (my great grandfather was a ring maker back in the day) and my parents have worked with him more recently as well. Initially I was looking at ONLY certified stones. Last week the jewler asked me if I would consider an uncertified stone - I initially said no, but, when I got to my car and thought about it I went back in and told her I would consider it. The reason I changed my mind was that I really trust her and as I said before I don''t really care about what grade the stone is and what color the stone is - I care much more about how it looks to me. If its beautiful but the fact that a piece of paper doesn''t come with it makes it less desirable to some then hopefully it will be a good deal for me. Additionally, the jewler said that any diamond I bought could be conditional upon my taking the diamond to an outside independent apraiser and the independent appraisers assesment of the diamond.

Having said that 3 days later she got a stone for me to see. I should preface this by saying that most of the stones I have seen until now have been what most people consider ideal specs, table of about 64%ish, depth about 63%ish, no fluor, excellent polish and symmetry, ratio of about 1.4.

Today I looked at this uncertified stone. I was floored as soon as I saw it - it was absolutely the most beautiful stone I''ve seen so far (to my eye) by about 10 fold. It is however, by the numbers, far from what most would consider ideal. The appraiser at the store looked at it and here is how he rated it:

Cut: Emerald/Victorian cut
Carats: 1.77
Dimensions: 10.1X6.19X2.9
Color:G (to be honest to my eye it was the clearest diamond I have ever seen)
Clarity: VS1 (when I looked at it with loupes, I saw several incclusions and to be honest it looked more like VS2''s that I have seen - but I''m certianly no expert and it''s eye clean so who cares?)
Table: 58%
Depth: 54%
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Flour: Slight
Girdle: Slightly thick to thick
Cutlet: None

I personally looked at the stone in multiple types of light - in the stores brightest area, another area of the store where it was dark, outside in direct sunlight, I even went into the bathroom and turned out the lights (although I was scared I was going to drop it in the toilet). It was amazing in every light possible.

So here are my questions:

1. Am I being a fool here? I know the prevailing wisdom is never to buy a stone that doesn''t have a certificate - but if I trust the jewler, have an independent apraiser look at it as well then wouldn''t I really be a fool to pass up the most beautiful diamond I''ve seen by 10X just because it doesn''t come with a piece of paper? I should also note that it''s really not about the price savings - that''s a nice bonus but I personally think this diamond should be more valuable then any of the others I''ve looked at that were 5-10K more expensive.
2. Again, I know that the numbers for this diamond are what some would consider sub-optimal. Particularly, the dimensions (very skinny - pancake like diamond), small table, depth and the slight blue fluor as well (something I did''t even really see in any of the lights). If despite these numbers I still think it looks amazing then do the numers matter?
3. Given what the numers are would anyone have any specific concerns. Anything in particular I should look at or consider? Any specific lighting conditions I should spend extra time evaluating?
4. From the side it does look very skinny (2.9 depth) but when in a setting I do''nt think I would even notice unless you put it next to a diamond that is thicker. Any concerns that it is so skinny?
5. The price right now stands at $9000 and I suspect she would come down some from that. I don''t really know how to appropriately value the fact that it doesn''t have a cert., she says it was just cut and so hasn''t been sent for certification yet. Any thoughts on how to appropriately value the fact that it has no certificate?
6. Finally, it is a victorian cut (some type of emerald cut but slighly different). I noticed a small difference from the traditional emerald cut but I couldn''t really put my finger on what it was. I can''t find too much info about said cut. Any thoughts?

AGain, I really appreciate everyone''s help. Even though you haven''t answered me sepcifically yet, all of the information on these forums has been invaluably helpful.

Cheers and happy holidays to all.

Doug

To me these two highlighted parts are the most important of all. With fancies, it is much more about how the diamond looks to you than it is about the numbers. I would encourage you to take the diamond out and see it in different lighting environments and perhaps also to go to Tiffany''s or some such place and look at their ECs which are typically a nice quality. Make sure it really stacks up for you in that reganrd.

BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT the fair market value of a diamond is based on the 4Cs, and without a cert you do not know what those are and so you cannot decide what is the fair market value. If they want to sell it to you as a G SI1 of a certain carat weight, then you need to make sure you are getting what you pay for. I don''t buy the "It was just cut that''s why it has no cert" BS

I don''t want to sound cynical, but there have been many many stories here of people getting screwed and very often it is from a friend-of-a-friend-family-mom-and-pop-I-trust-them-forever type of store. So treat this like a financial transaction and do your due dilligence.

If you buy the diamond make sure you can return it *for any reason at all* for a *full refund* within some specified period of time (I would push for 2 weeks at least. Then go out and find a TRUE independent appraiser near you (or not near you as the case may be, there are some great ones that post regularly on PS and others here: http://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx). Not a jeweler, and not a random "GIA gemologist", because that certificate is often not worth the paper it is printed on. Then find out what he/she has to say. If their assessment of the diamonds cut quality etc is acceptable to you, great. If not, or you find somethng better, then take it back.

I would not buy that diamond unless you a) had the ability to return it for ANY reason whatsoever, and b) you received a professional independent appraisal that verifies its purported specs and its cut quality, most of all.

 

[drburka]

Thanks for such a quick response. I was totally with you until the very last sentence:

I would not buy that diamond unless you a) had the ability to return it for ANY reason whatsoever, and b) you received a professional independent appraisal that verifies its purported specs and its cut quality, most of all.

My question back to you is: say the independent appraiser indicates the "cut quality" is terrible. But, I still think the diamond is beautiful....then does the official cut quality matter? I guess what i''m trying to ask is if there is something fundamentally wrong with buying a poor cut diamond - such as it will change the way it looks 10 years from now, or its likely to crack or scratch etc. etc. or the appraiser points out a particular angle of light that makes it look awaful, then I would not want to buy it. But, isn''t the cut quality based on a predetermined set of dimensions that are considered standard? Should those demensions matter and the word "poor" matter, if it looks good to me?

Here''s an analogy that may make you chuckle. It''s sort of like someone telling me that my girlfriend is ugly (she''s not BTW - just a disclaimer in case she reads this after we are engaged). If I think she is beautiful then what does it matter if someone else says she is ugly? What if a panel of experts say she is ugly - again still wouldn''t matter to me - she''s beautiful in my eyes. Is it not the same with the cut of a diamond?

Thoughts?

 

[swingirl]

Here is a link to the Victorian Cut. It is a beautiful looking stone. It says all cuts come with a GIA report so I am guessing the one you are looking at is not a true Victorian Cut. Yours is way shallower than the Victorian Cut specs. The cutter would have sent it to GIA before it reached a retailer.

Victorian Cut

Diamonds are cut to perform to a certain standard. They are supposed to be sparkly. If you like all the properties that this diamond shows then buy it. It sounds like you have seen many and know what you like.

 

[bgray]

i think you are pushing for validation because you want this to be a good deal and its not--not yet. I think you are NUTS to buy an uncertified stone simply because without a truly independant assesement of cut quality and of the grading you CANNOT know if you are paying a fair price. Personally I wouldnt be surprised if this was a stone that they did not want lab graded. It may be a an h or I color with fluoresecence so it appears whiter than it is. Now that may be fine with you if that is , for example, the case, but it would substantially affect the price. I also suspect is it more like an SI1. Again-FINE but if you dont know for sure you cannot ascertain a fair price.

 

[pretty_carbon]

When I did my searches I was offered several uncertified stones. But the way I viewed it was that the certificate was there to protect me as well as a yardstick to assess an accurate price of the stone.

If your stone is fantastic now, it will be fantastic after a certification too, unless there are undisclosed snags.

 

[Circe]

Well, full disclosure: I bought my diamond uncertified from a family friend, and ... it worked out great! That said, even though the friend in question had provided many similar deals over the years (which were really obvious deals that I was educated enough to recognize and appreciate), when it came to the diamond, of which I was ignorant, I worried. I fretted. I looked at it under the loupe for hours. I found PS. And it wasn''t until I took a GIA diamond grading course that I was finally 100% percent sure that, yep, my diamond was absolutely perfect and exactly as advertised.

All that said, I knew from the get-go that I loved the look of the stone and that the details would not, so much, matter to me - J? M? Z? whatever, it''s the prettiest one to my eye! It was the niggling fear that I might have gotten taken that concerned me. If you (and your GF!)do not have that sort of personality, don''t worry about it: you love the look of the stone, and that is what matters.

Looking at the stone by the #s ... it''s hard to tell. 2.9 sounds very shallow to me for a stone with a spread of 10 mm. One of our cut experts ... was it RockDiamond, maybe? Had a post of *really* shallow stones a while back. Basically, the stones looked good still, but they didn''t return as much fire in movement as you''d expect. If that doesn''t bother you, go for it! But like everyone else said, get an independent appraisal and check out the return policy before you buy. Just for safety''s sake.

 

[Circe]

Date: 12/18/2009 12:52:35 AM
Author:drburka

Color:G (to be honest to my eye it was the clearest diamond I have ever seen)

P.S. - Compared to stones of a similar weight, I''d bet this could at least partially be chalked up to the shallowness of the stone. Body color gets deeper in larger stones (this is why a 2 carat J will look darker than a .20 carat J), but this large stone has the depth of a small one, so ... don''t put too much weight on this as a plus without weighing it against the sacrifice of fire. I''m not saying it has to look awful! I think a big but shallow stone could potentially be very interesting. Just keep it in mind ....

 

[bgray]

Date: 12/18/2009 9:47:15 AM
Author: Circe

Date: 12/18/2009 12:52:35 AM

Author:drburka


Color:G (to be honest to my eye it was the clearest diamond I have ever seen)

P.S. - Compared to stones of a similar weight, I''d bet this could at least partially be chalked up to the shallowness of the stone. Body color gets deeper in larger stones (this is why a 2 carat J will look darker than a .20 carat J), but this large stone has the depth of a small one, so ... don''t put too much weight on this as a plus without weighing it against the sacrifice of fire. I''m not saying it has to look awful! I think a big but shallow stone could potentially be very interesting. Just keep it in mind ....

Good point Circe about the color in a shallow stone. PS love your pear!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 12/18/2009 1:39:09 AM
Author: drburka
Thanks for such a quick response. I was totally with you until the very last sentence:

I would not buy that diamond unless you a) had the ability to return it for ANY reason whatsoever, and b) you received a professional independent appraisal that verifies its purported specs and its cut quality, most of all.

My question back to you is: say the independent appraiser indicates the ''cut quality'' is terrible. But, I still think the diamond is beautiful....then does the official cut quality matter? I guess what i''m trying to ask is if there is something fundamentally wrong with buying a poor cut diamond - such as it will change the way it looks 10 years from now, or its likely to crack or scratch etc. etc. or the appraiser points out a particular angle of light that makes it look awaful, then I would not want to buy it. But, isn''t the cut quality based on a predetermined set of dimensions that are considered standard? Should those demensions matter and the word ''poor'' matter, if it looks good to me?

Here''s an analogy that may make you chuckle. It''s sort of like someone telling me that my girlfriend is ugly (she''s not BTW - just a disclaimer in case she reads this after we are engaged). If I think she is beautiful then what does it matter if someone else says she is ugly? What if a panel of experts say she is ugly - again still wouldn''t matter to me - she''s beautiful in my eyes. Is it not the same with the cut of a diamond?

Thoughts?

My comment primarily applied to undertsanding the fair market value of the diamond. To me, the main benefit of PS is helping consumers make sure they are getting what they paid for. Knowledge is power. And cut quality is one important determinant of price. As long as you are satisfied after ding proper research that the price is fair *for what the diamond really is* then who am I to judge your personal taste?

But I also think it is important to make sure that you are truly comparing it to the best cuts out there. Just because you have seen 50 ECs doesn''t mean they were 50 great ones, KWIM? Before deciding to spent almost 10k on a diamond that is to your taste, I think it is important to train your palet. Boxed wine may taste mighty fine until you taste the finest vintage, and what if they cost almost the same?

Good Old Gold does great videos of diamonds and carries great cuts generally speaking. Here are a couple featuring ECs that are typically ideal. If you like the one you have seen better, more power to you. But only pay what it is worth!

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5429/

And by the way, if you like unusual step cuts, have you seen the Octavia?

Designed by a PSer even.

http://www.vimeo.com/8248419

 

[Hest88]

This is a bit difficult. If the stone is indeed a Victorian cut (thanks Swingirl!) then it''s a proprietary cut that should have a cert. It also means you should be able to check the laser inscription and contact other vendors to be sure you''re paying the right price for a Victorian cut (which probably carries a bit of a premium).

Another thing to think about...is your GF set on an EC? Because I''m an EC lover and I, personally, find the Victorian cut a bit busy. But your GF may like the look, which almost gives it a cushion shape from some angles. I also imagine part of your wow is the faceting, which would give it more scintillation compared to a traditional EC.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/18/2009 2:30:48 AM
Author: swingirl
Here is a link to the Victorian Cut. It is a beautiful looking stone. It says all cuts come with a GIA report so I am guessing the one you are looking at is not a true Victorian Cut. Yours is way shallower than the Victorian Cut specs. The cutter would have sent it to GIA before it reached a retailer.

Victorian Cut

Diamonds are cut to perform to a certain standard. They are supposed to be sparkly. If you like all the properties that this diamond shows then buy it. It sounds like you have seen many and know what you like.

My thoughts too. Definitely get an independant appraisal to make sure the colour and clarity check out or are satisfactory.

 

[decodelighted]

I wonder if its a recut ... maybe a Victorian Cut whose culet was damaged somehow & had the bottom chopped off of it? I also wonder how the stone would look ONCE SET. Something so pancake flat like that might go dead in a setting - and you wouldn''t know that until you''ve already gotten it. Can you look at it sitting in a setting.

Someone once told me -- consider how the stone is going to look FILTHY dirty. Not just how it looks in ideal circumstances.