SI3 Clarity ?
- Thread starter Daisyma02
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SI3 clarity is the brain child of an industry that has diamonds they don't want to call I1 yet know it's not an SI2.
The RAP sheet lists prices for SI3's however GIA will not grade a diamond an SI3. They will grade it either an SI2 or an I1. More liberal labs like EGL will use the grade however. If I were purchasing a diamond that was EGL'd as an SI3 and wasn't getting it for an I1-I2 price I'd pass, that is if you want a diamond of that clarity grade. In earrings sometimes it can be practical.
Rhino
The RAP sheet lists prices for SI3's however GIA will not grade a diamond an SI3. They will grade it either an SI2 or an I1. More liberal labs like EGL will use the grade however. If I were purchasing a diamond that was EGL'd as an SI3 and wasn't getting it for an I1-I2 price I'd pass, that is if you want a diamond of that clarity grade. In earrings sometimes it can be practical.
Rhino
What totally puzzles me is that the labs to use the SI-3 grade should change their grading, and publish their standards for all the other grades.
They use the same terminology as GIA, yet with the addition of the SI-3 to the mix, it some stones be graded better than they should be. This confuses consumers and misleads them to believe that an IGI/EGL VS-1 is the equal to a VS-1 graded by GIA.
Now I have no problem to any lab coming out with a grading nomenclature that is different than GIA's. But... all the gradings should have different "titles" than the ones used by GIA.
This would save consumers in the long run, because when the clarity grade appearance of the actual stone is different than a stone graded by GIA, some consumers may have to return the stone for one that would be equal to the GIA grade.
Rockdoc
They use the same terminology as GIA, yet with the addition of the SI-3 to the mix, it some stones be graded better than they should be. This confuses consumers and misleads them to believe that an IGI/EGL VS-1 is the equal to a VS-1 graded by GIA.
Now I have no problem to any lab coming out with a grading nomenclature that is different than GIA's. But... all the gradings should have different "titles" than the ones used by GIA.
This would save consumers in the long run, because when the clarity grade appearance of the actual stone is different than a stone graded by GIA, some consumers may have to return the stone for one that would be equal to the GIA grade.
Rockdoc
Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
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Doc, I'm a little confused myself.
Are you saying that the category or standard for an EGL VS1 is different than a GIA VS1?
Are you saying that the category or standard for an EGL VS1 is different than a GIA VS1?
HI Richard
In some cases, yes.
EGL is a franchise.. it is not like AGS or GIA -.
As such each EGL varies.
The problem is that when consumer assume the VS stones from EGL and GIA are the same, they can be misled.
But this is a stone by stone, lab cert by lab cert issue.
Certainly diamond dealers make a choice when deciding which lab to send their diamond. So where do they send it??? To the lab that is going to issue a report that will get them the most money for the stone.
NOTE: EGL stones sell for less than AGS or GIA graded stones do of comparable gradings. So why would a diamond dealer want to send the stone to EGL? There is certainly plenty of posts in all the forums talking about how generous EGL and some others are with their gradings.
I think the important thing here is to let consumers understand that an EGL or IGI grade is NOT necessarily grade the same grade at GIA's Gem Trade Lab.
In the SI-2 - I-1 gradings, how can they be the same when the extra SI-3 grade has been added. It just makes it easier for retailers to sell an SI-3 than having it graded as an I-1 by GIA or AGS..
For most consumers the Imperfect grades is the kiss of death in selling.
Rockdoc
In some cases, yes.
EGL is a franchise.. it is not like AGS or GIA -.
As such each EGL varies.
The problem is that when consumer assume the VS stones from EGL and GIA are the same, they can be misled.
But this is a stone by stone, lab cert by lab cert issue.
Certainly diamond dealers make a choice when deciding which lab to send their diamond. So where do they send it??? To the lab that is going to issue a report that will get them the most money for the stone.
NOTE: EGL stones sell for less than AGS or GIA graded stones do of comparable gradings. So why would a diamond dealer want to send the stone to EGL? There is certainly plenty of posts in all the forums talking about how generous EGL and some others are with their gradings.
I think the important thing here is to let consumers understand that an EGL or IGI grade is NOT necessarily grade the same grade at GIA's Gem Trade Lab.
In the SI-2 - I-1 gradings, how can they be the same when the extra SI-3 grade has been added. It just makes it easier for retailers to sell an SI-3 than having it graded as an I-1 by GIA or AGS..
For most consumers the Imperfect grades is the kiss of death in selling.
Rockdoc
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Interesting.
Roc I understand EGL USA (NY, LA, Vancouver and Toronto) are all owned by the same group, and Israel and Antwerp (maybe London) are another.
I believe the latter 3 are softer than USA - certainly this is true of the stones we get in Oz from Israel.
you said "For most consumers the Imperfect grades is the kiss of death in selling. Rockdoc"
I doubt this is true - it assumes more of consumers than they know. Most diamonds get sold in Malls and the spiel backed up by a seemingly good independant 3rd party warranty probably works pretty well.
Fewer EGL stones are web listed, but I suspect that they get a goodly share of Mall sales - Do you think it might even be more than AGSL graded stones?
Finally as you say EGL stones are listed at lower $'s. Do you think the market is on the money (as markets usually are)?
Say a EGL stone that is listed at -15% less than the equivalent GIA stone - would it be fair to say that the actual price for these diamonds would be equivalent?
Maybe sometimes the EGL stone might even be a bargain?
Roc I understand EGL USA (NY, LA, Vancouver and Toronto) are all owned by the same group, and Israel and Antwerp (maybe London) are another.
I believe the latter 3 are softer than USA - certainly this is true of the stones we get in Oz from Israel.
you said "For most consumers the Imperfect grades is the kiss of death in selling. Rockdoc"
I doubt this is true - it assumes more of consumers than they know. Most diamonds get sold in Malls and the spiel backed up by a seemingly good independant 3rd party warranty probably works pretty well.
Fewer EGL stones are web listed, but I suspect that they get a goodly share of Mall sales - Do you think it might even be more than AGSL graded stones?
Finally as you say EGL stones are listed at lower $'s. Do you think the market is on the money (as markets usually are)?
Say a EGL stone that is listed at -15% less than the equivalent GIA stone - would it be fair to say that the actual price for these diamonds would be equivalent?
Maybe sometimes the EGL stone might even be a bargain?
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I agree with everything you say Roc, but the idea that people are smarter than the marketers is of course a big issue.
"There is a sucker born every day" and it is true. My wife is a buyer for a chain and in their market the 'DEAl' mentality s alive and well for them. if they do not attempt to double pprice goods then their competitors eat them for breakfast. Biz is biz.
It drives me crazy too, but it is life, especially in the lower echelons of the food chain.
I doubt that the likes of us will ever have much impact. But eventually web sales will make a big impact on Mall business. But for me a bigger fear is that etailing will take out more upper end stores, who deal with better educated wiser customers, along the way. This would be sad because the industry would loose a lot of skilled people.
"There is a sucker born every day" and it is true. My wife is a buyer for a chain and in their market the 'DEAl' mentality s alive and well for them. if they do not attempt to double pprice goods then their competitors eat them for breakfast. Biz is biz.
It drives me crazy too, but it is life, especially in the lower echelons of the food chain.
I doubt that the likes of us will ever have much impact. But eventually web sales will make a big impact on Mall business. But for me a bigger fear is that etailing will take out more upper end stores, who deal with better educated wiser customers, along the way. This would be sad because the industry would loose a lot of skilled people.
Giangi
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I live in Italy and I have seen quite a lot of EGL Antwerp graded stones... Many of them are sealed in a package with a microfilm of the report, however I have seen several stones with inclusions visible through the plastic w/the naked eye... They were supposed to be VS2s(!!) and SIs. Recently I've seen a pair of EGL Antwerp G P1s... Almost opaque! I've seen also several EGL Israel stones and some of them were obviously overgraded. I've sent some stones to EGL USA-NY and their grading was quite accurate(only one grade off in color in my opinion). EGL labs are all different, but IMO the best ones are in the US...
Giangi
Giangi
I went into a Jewelery Store today and asked the Jeweler about what a SI3 is and he said is a aweful grade that GIA came up with. I dissagreed with him saying that GIA does not use SI3 on there charts and he wet on to say that GIA created SI3 for there convenience. How confusing. Not that it really matters but I want to be Educated on this. This is just a short funny story here.....my friend had just got a surprise 1 carat solitare for Valentines from her Husband and we were shopping for a wrap for it...the Jeweler asked her where she got her nice new diamond and my friend said my husband Surprised her with it. The Jeweler said he didn't get it here and then actaully Had the Nerve to Suggest to my friend to return it where they got and buy a Diamond from them.. Does no One Understand that a Diamond from your Husband has sentimental value? I was in shock that this conversation was happening. Her Diamond is a "d" SI1. I just had to share that...
Mara
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The GIA does not even recognize the SI3 grading, their grading is has SI1 and SI2 and then the I gradings. The SI3 grade is specific to EGL certificates as noted by Rhino...so this jeweler obviously did not know what he was talking about, which is not surprising...it is hard to find a good jeweler out there who keeps their knowledge fresh, and also does not perpetuate falsities. No wonder customers are confused!
SI3 grading was created so that EGL did not have to put I1 on some of the stones..that is how I see it anyway. SI3 grade will sell better than any I grade, so in my mind it was just a way to mark up a stone that should most likely be an I1 clarity...and get some poor sucker at the mall to pay more.
Just the fact that he wanted your friend to return her stone and buy one of his should have told you that he is not dealing with a full deck of cards, what insanity. I hope you told him off about the SI3 grading and the blatant disrespect for your friend's new ring.
SI3 grading was created so that EGL did not have to put I1 on some of the stones..that is how I see it anyway. SI3 grade will sell better than any I grade, so in my mind it was just a way to mark up a stone that should most likely be an I1 clarity...and get some poor sucker at the mall to pay more.
Just the fact that he wanted your friend to return her stone and buy one of his should have told you that he is not dealing with a full deck of cards, what insanity. I hope you told him off about the SI3 grading and the blatant disrespect for your friend's new ring.
Mara I am So Glad that you confirmed that, No I didn't tell him off .....yet. Would like to But I don't think I will be back there anythgime soon. I just have to get that Essentials class ordered soon. So I don't have to keep asking all these simple questions. Thanks
Mara
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Here is an example of an SI3 stone...was just looking at pears on eBay and found this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2613948810&category=10215
If I am not mistaken, that stone is filled with white inclusions spread across the stone. Does anyone else see them in the enlarged pictures?
If those are inclusions as I think they are from the pix...that stone would definitely be an I1 with GIA!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2613948810&category=10215
If I am not mistaken, that stone is filled with white inclusions spread across the stone. Does anyone else see them in the enlarged pictures?
If those are inclusions as I think they are from the pix...that stone would definitely be an I1 with GIA!!
DaisyMa,
I was personally offended about that jeweler telling your friend to return her D SI1. I have a D SI1 H&A diamond and my baby is the most beautiful, fiery rock I've seen compared to the quality in stores these days. (Sue me, I'm biased!) The inclusions on my SI1 stone consists of a few miniscule pinpoints by the culet. You surely can't see them without magnification! The local appraiser even graded it VS2. You were certainly right, there is a sentimental value attached to your friend's ring and it's priceless. Therefore, to that rude jeweler on my and your friend's behalf, he can eat my shorts!
Laurie
I was personally offended about that jeweler telling your friend to return her D SI1. I have a D SI1 H&A diamond and my baby is the most beautiful, fiery rock I've seen compared to the quality in stores these days. (Sue me, I'm biased!) The inclusions on my SI1 stone consists of a few miniscule pinpoints by the culet. You surely can't see them without magnification! The local appraiser even graded it VS2. You were certainly right, there is a sentimental value attached to your friend's ring and it's priceless. Therefore, to that rude jeweler on my and your friend's behalf, he can eat my shorts!
Laurie
It's a Georgous Modified Rectangular Cut and stunning but I Guess the Jeweler felt cheated on loosing a sale. My friend had just got it 2 days before hand for valentines and most stores have a 30 Day Return Policy. So the Jeweler thought what the heck go for another sale. I think my Friends Husdand would have been very hurt had she done this. But there was no way. Her SI1 D is AWESOME looking!!!
I have a question for you, Laurie. I have an SI3 diamond but it has a very noticeable inclusion, visible to the naked eye. The reason I ask is I keep reading of people w/ SI3 or SI1 diamonds which have no flaws to the naked eye....what if it has a big old black speck???Date: 2/12/2003 8:145 PM
Author: PuddyKat
DaisyMa,
I was personally offended about that jeweler telling your friend to return her D SI1. I have a D SI1 H&A diamond and my baby is the most beautiful, fiery rock I''ve seen compared to the quality in stores these days. (Sue me, I''m biased!) The inclusions on my SI1 stone consists of a few miniscule pinpoints by the culet. You surely can''t see them without magnification! The local appraiser even graded it VS2. You were certainly right, there is a sentimental value attached to your friend''s ring and it''s priceless. Therefore, to that rude jeweler on my and your friend''s behalf, he can eat my shorts!
Laurie
Patty
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Tina, as you''ve read, an SI3 stone is what GIA and AGS would probably grade an I-1. And yes, you can usually see inclusions in I-1 stones with the naked eye. It sounds like your stone is no exception. Most people say that you can begin to see inclusions with the naked eye when you get to the SI stones, although that is not a definite grading description. "Eye clean" is a VERY subjective term.
It sounds like the inclusion you see is bothering you. It also sounds like you feel bad that you are bothered by the inclusion. You now must decide how much it bothers you. You may decide to live with it or you may decide that you want to trade it for an eye-clean stone.
It sounds like the inclusion you see is bothering you. It also sounds like you feel bad that you are bothered by the inclusion. You now must decide how much it bothers you. You may decide to live with it or you may decide that you want to trade it for an eye-clean stone.
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tina242
i agree with Patty,if the inclusion keep on bothering you ,you should upgrade the clarity to vs2 or si1 with a GIA or AGS cert .
i agree with Patty,if the inclusion keep on bothering you ,you should upgrade the clarity to vs2 or si1 with a GIA or AGS cert .
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