SI2 - Need to be Eyeclean? Wait a second...

[shmurgshmurg]

So everyone, I bought that SI2 I was talking about.

It is beautiful.

I took it to another jewelery store where I am getting the mounting (they originally wanted to sell me a diamond but they were too expensive). Anyhow, the guy there did a "free appraisal." He said everything matches up, and it is indeed a triple ex (he did a bunch of measurements).

However, he had issue with one of the inclusions. From the top down (even with a loupe), you can NOT see ANYTHING. However, when you flip it upside down, you can see in the diamond a little white line/inclusion or feather (not sure which one it is - it is white). You can see this from the naked eye if you are looking for it upside down. You cannot see ANYTHING from the top, even with a loupe.

He was saying that it really should be an I1 because of this. He explained that if you can see the inclusion with the naked eye, it should really always be deemed an I1, at least. The GIA cert says that it is an SI2 and it has no other inclusions.

Is he giving me B.S. because I didn't buy the stone from him in the first place?

This just doesn't seem right - because I saw at least 10 to 20 other SI2s over the past week, and I would say that over 85% of them I could see at least something with the naked eye (most of which I could see from the top down - I fell in love with my stone because you cant see anything from the top down).

What is going on here?!?!?!?

 

[neatfreak]

B.S. The definition of eyeclean is usually from the top. You'll never see the stone from the bottom and it doesn't matter. Even some VS2 diamonds have visible inclusions.

You did a great job with that stone, don't worry. This guy is full of it.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/23/2008 1:58:37 PM
Author:shmurgshmurg
So everyone, I bought that SI2 I was talking about.

It is beautiful.

I took it to another jewelery store where I am getting the mounting (they originally wanted to sell me a diamond but they were too expensive). Anyhow, the guy there did a 'free appraisal.' He said everything matches up, and it is indeed a triple ex (he did a bunch of measurements).

However, he had issue with one of the inclusions. From the top down (even with a loupe), you can NOT see ANYTHING. However, when you flip it upside down, you can see by the side a white line/inclusion or feather (not sure which one it is). You can see this from the naked eye if you are looking for it upside down. You cannot see ANYTHING from the top, even with a loupe.

He was saying that it really should be an I1 because of this. He explained that if you can see the inclusion with the naked eye, it should really always be deemed an I1, at least. The GIA cert says that it is an SI2 and it has no other inclusions.

Is he giving me B.S. because I didn't buy the stone from him in the first place?

This just doesn't seem right - because I saw at least 10 to 20 other SI2s over the past week, and I would say that over 85% of them I could see at least something with the naked eye (most of which I could see from the top down - I fell in love with my stone because you cant see anything from the top down).

What is going on here?!?!?!?

Don't worry, clarity is graded face up, also your diamond has a GIA report which is well respected throughout. He is entitled to his opinion of course, but it is best to get any opinion on a diamond from someone who doesn't sell them.

Also it sounds as if you found a great SI2 in that size!

 

[shmurgshmurg]

Thank gosh! I was freakin'' out there - worrying that I really bought an I1 when the GIA cert says SI2!

He did say that he grades very strict - but he had so much emphasis when he spoke.

I mean, you can def. see the inclusion upside down/on its side. It is a thin white line and it is long. But from the top you cant see anything at all!

He flipped the diamond over and said, "see that line, see how you can see it from where we are standing without getting right up to it - that makes this an I1 - if you can see it without a loupe - it is an I1."

I then said to him, but I saw other SI2''s and sometimes there would be a black pique right under the table which were visible with the naked eye. He said, "impossible! If there is a black pique which you can see with the naked eye and it is under the table it is always an I1"

I mean, you saw the cert. from the other post for this 2.17 SI2. It does have other inclusions near the outside, but I can''t even see them with a loupe. I can only see this one when it is flipped over. But from the top down it is gorgeous and you cant see anything but sparkle - the triple Ex/ 0.7 HCA score seem to be very accurate because this thing shines!

 

[neatfreak]

Doesn''t sound like he was properly trained in grading! Don''t worry, enjoy!!!!!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

He is incorrect. Clarity grading is done face up, not face down.

Face down it''s like looking through a window pane. You can see everything.

 

[LGK]

Let me guess, he isn''t an independant appraiser... he sells jewelery is my guess. Or he invented his own method of grading clarity!

Weird. No, a GIA graded SI2 is not always eyeclean, or even usually. Nor is every SI1, or even the occasional VS2, even if properly graded... and especially if you start looking from the bottom or side.

Sounds like you got a lovely stone! (And huge!)

 

[shmurgshmurg]

No, surprisingly he is a GIA certified appraiser that works in the back of a high-priced jewelery store in Miami.

He fully admitted that he is "hard on stones" but he was so "a matter of fact" as to stating that my stone was on the border of SI2 and I1 (although he would clasify it as an I1) because of this one particular inclusion which can ONLY be seen upside down/from the side. Although it is a long white line - the second you flip it right side up it goes away - leaving just sparkles. Under 10x maginifcation from the top - maybe - you can see a tiny tiny outline of where a part of the inclusion is - but barely. I just couldn''t understand how that would knock it down to an I1 - especially on a stone that GIA said was an SI2 and looks beautiful from the top.

 

[neatfreak]

Just because he is GIA trained doesn''t mean he did a good job in his classes!

Your stone sounds beautiful, don''t let this guy ruin it for you. He just isn''t correct here.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/23/2008 2:28:59 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
He is incorrect. Clarity grading is done face up, not face down.

Face down it's like looking through a window pane. You can see everything.

There - nothing to worry about schmurg! That is straight from the horse's mouth so to speak!

 

[Lady_Disdain]

My interpretation: he wants you to return your stone and buy a different one - from him, because he is such a tough grader that his stones will be wonderful. That is a low trick and i wouldn''t trust someone who played this sort of mind game with a client.

I am known to be a harsh cynic, though.

 

[Carrots]

if the price is right, get the ring before someone else with a clue does.

 

[oldmancoyote]

I''ll buy that SI2. Infact, make it an I2 because the inclusion is particularly long and white, so it can''t possibly be classed as Small Inclusion.

What a load of tosh.

Remember - if paying peanuts gets you monkeys, paying nothing gets you...

 

[shmurgshmurg]

oldman,

I am assuming you are being sarcastic?

 

[Regular Guy]

FYI...from the FAQ section...

 

[MMMD]

He was just being a salesman. Enjoy your stone.

 

[:)]

Date: 10/23/2008 5:44:46 PM
Author: shmurgshmurg
oldman,

I am assuming you are being sarcastic?

haha - yes he was being completely sarcastic.
Enjoy your stone! That vendor is full of it! (and would be losing a lot of $$$ if he were regrading all GIA stones to his own specs - he would have purchased them at GIA report spec prices and selling them as ''lower grades'' and thus lower prices - how in the world would he stay in business?!!)

 

[NeverEndingUpgrade]

Date: 10/23/2008 2:17:08 PM
Author: shmurgshmurg
Thank gosh! I was freakin'' out there - worrying that I really bought an I1 when the GIA cert says SI2!

He did say that he grades very strict - but he had so much emphasis when he spoke.

Yes, obivously he grades very strict if he grades upside down!

 

[Allison D.]

Unless you plan on having her wear it upside down, there's no reason for worry.

 

[honey22]

What a tosser! Clarity is graded face up, so you don''t even have to plot the inclusions you can see from the bottom. He doesn''t know his stuff, or is just trying to get you to return the stone and buy one from him. I HATE vendors that operate like this!!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/23/2008 11:12:23 PM
Author: honey22
What a tosser! Clarity is graded face up, so you don''t even have to plot the inclusions you can see from the bottom. He doesn''t know his stuff, or is just trying to get you to return the stone and buy one from him. I HATE vendors that operate like this!!

ANOTHER word I need to remember - hahaha!!

 

[arjunajane]

Me thinks we can all agree this guy needs a refresher course..

I agree with oldman, you do get what you pay for - think about it, he kindly offers you a "free appraisal", then promptly tries to convince you to return your stone...yawn, he needs new tricks!
In this case, you paid nothing , and got no useful info in return..

Personally, I would get the mounting made elsewhere, I don''t like rewarding disnonest vendors with my business..
either way, once the ring is finished, please seek out a Proper Independent Appraiser (not attached/out the back of/affilliated with a jewellery store), as you will need this for insurance.

Please enjoy your stone and don''t listen to this yo !

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/24/2008 4:55:13 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 10/23/2008 11:12:23 PM
Author: honey22
What a tosser! Clarity is graded face up, so you don''t even have to plot the inclusions you can see from the bottom. He doesn''t know his stuff, or is just trying to get you to return the stone and buy one from him. I HATE vendors that operate like this!!

ANOTHER word I need to remember - hahaha!!

Ha ha, I''ve been watching Honey''s language gradually degenerate...i love it, its great !

 

[MissGotRocks]

Is this the 2.17 G SI2 stone that you are talking about? You had asked about ''black holes'' in the stone - what did he say about that? I''m assuming it is just the characteristics of an ideal cut stone but would like to hear his thoughts on that.

No worries about the inclusion from the bottom up position though!

Lastly, congrats on buying a stone!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/24/2008 5:05:06 AM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 10/24/2008 4:55:13 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 10/23/2008 11:12:23 PM
Author: honey22
What a tosser! Clarity is graded face up, so you don''t even have to plot the inclusions you can see from the bottom. He doesn''t know his stuff, or is just trying to get you to return the stone and buy one from him. I HATE vendors that operate like this!!

ANOTHER word I need to remember - hahaha!!

Ha ha, I''ve been watching Honey''s language gradually degenerate...i love it, its great !

LOL!!!!

 

[AdiS]

My ering center stone is an SI2. I can see a little inclusion on the side at the bottom but it doesn''t worry me at all. First, it was confirmed that it''s indeed an SI2 and second, it makes it my diamond, like a birthmark or something.

Enjoy your stone!

 

[shmurgshmurg]

Honey,

That is an interesting point. However, I believe this inclusion is on the plot diagram - the plot diagram on the right in the GIA cert. showing the stone upside down (looks like a line - you can see the cert. on the other post entitled "GIA G 2.17 Triple Ex - $17k - Good price? Let me hear it experts!"). You can only see the acutal inclusion look like a line when it is flipped upside down - I guess that is why the GIA people drew the line on the diagram showing the stone upside down, and not on the one right side up.

Is that still ok?

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 10/23/2008 3:34:27 PM
Author: shmurgshmurg
No, surprisingly he is a GIA certified appraiser that works in the back of a high-priced jewelery store in Miami.

He fully admitted that he is 'hard on stones' but he was so 'a matter of fact' as to stating that my stone was on the border of SI2 and I1 (although he would clasify it as an I1) because of this one particular inclusion which can ONLY be seen upside down/from the side. Although it is a long white line - the second you flip it right side up it goes away - leaving just sparkles. Under 10x maginifcation from the top - maybe - you can see a tiny tiny outline of where a part of the inclusion is - but barely. I just couldn't understand how that would knock it down to an I1 - especially on a stone that GIA said was an SI2 and looks beautiful from the top.

GIA doesn’t certify appraisers. They don’t even teach appraising. They are a school of gemology and GG is a gemological credential, not an appraisal credential. As has been pointed out, the GIA clarity grading method is done from the faceup position, something that every GG should know. He is, of course, under no obligation to use the GIA scale or methodology if he doesn’t want to but to say it should be an I-1 or whatever when he's using a different scale is outrageously deceptive.

The first clue that this was trouble was that the service was ‘free’. The second is the location at the back of a jewelry store. I know of no one who works for free so the real question becomes not one of whether there’s money involved but rather how they’re getting paid and by whom. Hint: it happens on the sales floor after you decide that the subject stone is unacceptable and start looking for a replacement.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[shmurgshmurg]

Denverappraiser/Lorelei/Neatfreak/everyone,

Let me be more specific with the question I just asked one post ago, so I don't freak out again - then I will be done and satisfied with everything. You guys are terrific by the way - I feel so much better fleshing this out with you guys.

What are your thoughts on what Honey said regarding GIA not having to indicate inclusions that can only be seen from the bottom? If that is the case, why are there two diagrams for the appraisers to specify inclusions (one from the top and one form the bottm/upside down). Is the bottom one not mandatory to fill out?

As I wrote above, I believe the inclusion that the mean appraiser was refering to is on the plot diagram - the plot diagram on the right in the GIA cert. showing the stone from the bottom/upside down (looks like a line - you can see the inclusion on the cert. in the other post entitled "GIA G 2.17 Triple Ex..." - it looks like a line in between two facets).

You can only see the actual inclusion look like a line when it is flipped upside down - I guess that is why the GIA people drew the line on the diagram depicting the stone upside down, and not on the one right side up.

Is that still ok - being that they drew it in the cert.?

 

[denverappraiser]

With GIA methodology, you plot on the back view everything that either breaks the surface on the back or that is only visible from the back. It’s worth noting that appraisers often see things mounted and the setting severely restricts our ability to see things from the back.

It is NOT required to plot everything in the stone. The purpose of the diagram is to map things that will be useful in recognizing the stone or that were deciding factors in setting the clarity grade. It’s fairly common to omit things that the plotter deemed unimportant to one or both of those purposes. This is a decision made by the plotter and there is quite a bit of variation in how they make it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver