Shuttling the gate after thew horse has bolted...now with text

[Pieface]

Hello, first post here so there goes my cherry!

I have just purchased an engagment ring with a round brilliant stone for my partner and I bought from a reputable bricks and mortar store, well aware that I would pay more than online pricing. For me I thought the peace of mind would be worth it. It came with an IGI report which I have since learned is looked down upon in some quarters. This sent me into a bit of a spin so I''m looking to get back some of my piece of mind!! (I hope)

My .56ct stone was graded E, VS2 and excellent for cut, symmetry and polish and hearts and arrows pattern. How much worse can it be in reality if anyone has experience in the difference in grading standards? I went for the best I could on the cut as I had learned prior to the purchase that this will probably have the biggest impact on the look of the diamond. I have since found Pricescope and learned a bit about the HCA etc. I have plugged in the angles from the report:

Table 56.5%
Crown 35.5 degrees
Pavillion 40.7 degrees
culet pointed (0%)

Now the report doesn''t give a total depth figure. It gives me the crown at 15.5% and the pavilion at 43% and the girdle as thin to medium faceted. If I just put in the figures I have with no allowance for the girdle it tells my the girdle is dangerously thin. Is there a ball park figure I can use to estimate the total depth with the girdle information given?

I guess what i really want to know is have I bought a quality diamond or have I been duped? Any input is gratefully appreciated.

Cheers
Pieface

 

[Pieface]

Hehe 46 views and no toes in the water...I really am trying to be patient

Don''t be scared to tell it to me straight...

 

[fansynancy]

I think people may not be responding because many PS''ers have come to know that online diamond shopping is where the best quality and value can be found. GIA and AGS certifications are those that are the most highly respected. It is also hard to evaluate a stone without the angles. That said, the color and clarity are very fine. GIA and AGS are known to grade with more stringency/accuracy, so sometimes another certificate may be off a grade or two by GIA or AGS standars. The most important thing is that you are happy with your stone and only you have seen it in person. I have found that the people on Pricescope must have all been raised by my mother, beacuse she taught me (and apparently everyone on the board!) that if you can''t say something nice, don''t say anything at all.

I''m sure if you can get a bit more info on your stone the PS''ers will be glad to offer more help.

Nancy

 

[surfgirl]

Pie (may I call you Pie?!), I cant say if you have a nice stone or not without seeing it but...I wouldn''t put much stock into an IGI report. I''d only depend on a GIA or AGS for the reason''s Nancy mentions. That said, if YOU love the ring, take it to an independent appraiser (you should do this anyway), and ask for a fair market value appraisal (and tell them not to jack up the price), and see what they appraise it at. Is the ring returnable? Refundable? I ask only if it appraises for grading way different that the IGI report says it is.

 

[Pieface]

Hi fansynancy thanks for your input. I certainly appreciate that in terms of value for money I have obviously not got the best deal as I have bought from a B&M store rather than online. That is not my real issue I am more concerned that I have actually bought a diamond that should perform well. The IGI shouldn''t really be able to fudge up the geometry side of their assessment should they?

Can you elaborate what angles you are after? I have posted the crown and pavilion etc above...?

Cheers

 

[Sparkalicious]

Hi Pieface! Welcome ...

I completely relate how anxious you must be to get a response ... Let me try and help ... I hope I can.

From what I understand, IGI is not the most reputable of the labs grading, at present. Preference would be given to say AGS or GIA, as these labs tend to be stricter when grading diamonds. This being said, with an E VS2 stone, even if the grading wasn''t accurate, in my humble opinion, you would still be in a "safe" range as let''s say the grading is off by 2 grades for both color and clarity ... E would be G - Which is still great and VS2 would be SI2 - which, providing the diamond is "eye clean" would be still great!

When it comes to the angles etc, I am no pro, however, given you don''t know the measurement of the girdle, if you add the 15.5 crown height % and the 43 pavillion depth % together, you get 58.5 ... if you include the girdle %, hypothesizing it is around 2 % or so, you get a total depth of around 60% or so ... Again, I may be wrong, but I think I am on the right track. The experts on the site, I''m sure will be glad to correct me and happy to inform you.

According to some material I have, I show that the "ideal" proportions for a round brilliant diamond have angles & specs as follows ..

Crown angle = 34.5 degrees
Pavilion angle = 40.75 degrees

Table - 53% - 57%

Crown height = 15.4 (+/- .6%)
Girdle = 2.5 (+/- .5%)
Pavillion depth = 43.1%
Thus ... total depth = 61%

Therefore, all in all, based on what I can see, especially considering the symmetry & polish were both graded Excellent, I would say you did a fantastic job! You may have paid more than you would have had to if you bought online but you are okay with that so Good on You!

Even if the experts online have valid reasons why this is not the perfect stone, it still appears to me that you did not get duped and with such an emotional and significant purchase, that is important. Congrats!

 

[Pieface]

Pie is fine with me

Once I have the ring I will try to have it appraised by someone reputable in my city. It''s funny how you think you are taking the right path by getting a certified diamond only to find out that not all men are created equal so to speak. One problem I have is although the consensus is that IGI is a substandard grading that no-one seems to have examples of this around the web (that I have found, links are most welcome). It seems like what people are saying is that the consistency of their grades is whats flawed ie I could actually have a diamond that has been graded in a manner that would stack up to GIA but there is a higher chance that it could be lower graded if reviewed by GIA or AGS than if I took and GIA or AGS graded diamond to the differing lab? My report is from June 2006, Does anyone know if that is a good or bad period for IGI grades?

Thanks for your support Sparkalicious. Basically even if I''ve got the bad end of a dodgy grading the stone should perform OK based off the cut if I understand you correctly.
I used your 2.5% girdle estimate which turned out a 1.9 on the HCA.

With the stone I have being graded Hearts and Arrows by IGI...thoughts on weather they are loose on their grading of this feature?

Cheers,

Pieface

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I would definitely get an independent appraisal. I personally wouldn''t trust the IGI cert. Someone on here very recently had an EGL graded diamond come back 2 or 3 grades lower on color and clarity. So even though you accepted the mark-up of the B&M, you certainly don''t want to pay for a particular grade and have it not be accurate. But there is no way to know without an appraisal.

 

[Pieface]

You have it right there diamond seeker. I have accepted the B&M markup provided they have accurately represented the goods to me. If I''ve been stooged I will be most disgruntled.

If anyone has an appraiser they recommend in Perth Western Australia please PM me

 

[Sparkalicious]

Date: 11/28/2007 10:46:02 PM
Author: Pieface
Pie is fine with me

Thanks for your support Sparkalicious. Basically even if I''ve got the bad end of a dodgy grading the stone should perform OK based off the cut if I understand you correctly.

I used your 2.5% girdle estimate which turned out a 1.9 on the HCA.

With the stone I have being graded Hearts and Arrows by IGI...thoughts on weather they are loose on their grading of this feature?

Cheers,

Pieface

You are welcome, Pie! I am so happy that you appreciated my sharing my thoughts with you!

You''re spot on. Exactly. That is the way I understand it. A superior cut compensates or offers more cushion, so to speak, in other areas, if it is true that the E color and VS2 clarity are not what would be considered as such if the same stone were to be graded by GIA or AGS.

No idea about the Hearts & Arrows piece??

If you have seen the stone under a gemscope, you should be able to see how sharp the hearts & arrows patterns are and somewhat determine that for yourself. There is some info about Hearts and Arrows on Pricescope so take a peek and see what you can find out.

Happy hunting! You''ll be a pro before long ... I hope you find one that you love

 

[Pieface]

Date: 11/29/2007 12:03:36 AM
Author: Sparkalicious

...
Happy hunting! You''ll be a pro before long ... I hope you find one that you love

I found the one I love, I just want to make sure I got her a great looking diamond

 

[Sparkalicious]

Nice work! Congrats!

 

[Pieface]

Ok I got my hands on the ring yesterday. Here's a pic or two, my photo skills certainly aren't doing it justice as I had to be fairly covert in getting the pictures done. I'll get some better ones when my girl goes out shopping or something

I'll link over to my photo-bucket for extra images as I can't get my head around the bizarre image posting rules here

**EDIT*** No I won't because apparently you can't insert a freakin' hyperlink here either

 

[NeverEndingUpgrade]

I''m no expert, but I thought that all diamonds that display hearts and arrows are excellent cuts.

Also, just because the IGI is not the top cert. agency, doesn''t mean that much. The diamond is still certified.

Maybe some pros can jump in here.

 

[Sparkalicious]

Date: 12/3/2007 7:48:14 PM
Author: Pieface
Ok I got my hands on the ring yesterday. Here''s a pic or two, my photo skills certainly aren''t doing it justice as I had to be fairly covert in getting the pictures done. I''ll get some better ones when my girl goes out shopping or something

I''ll link over to my photo-bucket for extra images as I can''t get my head around the bizarre image posting rules here

**EDIT*** No I won''t because apparently you can''t insert a freakin'' hyperlink here either

Pieface,

Looks lovely! I can''t wait to see more ... Hurry up over there ... we''re dying over here.

 

[Pieface]

One of the friendly Mods is trying to help me out so I''ll hopefully get the others up soon

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 12/3/2007 7:53:43 PM
Author: seekerofdiamonds
I''m no expert, but I thought that all diamonds that display hearts and arrows are excellent cuts.

Also, just because the IGI is not the top cert. agency, doesn''t mean that much. The diamond is still certified.

Maybe some pros can jump in here.

I''m not an expert either, but being certified means nothing if it isn''t from a respected lab.

I wouldn''t look at anything but GIA or AGS unless I was having an independent appraider check a stone prior to purchase. You can''t negotiate price if you don''t know the true specs on the stone.

 

[Pieface]

Ok here goes nothing

 

[Pieface]

Angle 1

 

[Pieface]

Angle 2

 

[Sparkalicious]

That diamond looks incredible, Pie! Great work. I''m glad everything came together for you.

I am sure that she will be delighted!

 

[Pieface]

Profile

 

[NeverEndingUpgrade]

diamondseeker2006,

I did not know that the IGI was not respected. Thanks for the info.

 

[Pieface]

Thanks Sparks you are an

It seems that you don''t get much comment here unless you tread the GIA AGS line and have larger diamond

As I said the pictures are not the best and certainly not a true reflection on how the diamond looks IMO. When I get more time and a better area to photograph in I''m sure there will be a lot more fire and sparkle on show.

@ Diamondseeker. It''s a pretty tough crowd here who have a very high standard. I have asked a few questions now and nobody seems to be able to answer as to how the IGI Sarin machine is inferior to a GIA or AGS Sarin machine

My diamond sits inside the AGS0 cut grade as far as I can tell...The consensus just seems to be that IGI is a, shall we say, second tier lab.

 

[somethingshiny]

Pie~

Welcome to Pricescope.

I''m sorry you''ve felt neglected while you''ve been here. We certainly don''t mean to shun. I saw your thread previously, but as I''m unfamiliar with IGI specs, I chose not to post. I''m more familiar with GIA and limited in AGS myself. I didn''t want to give you false info on such an important purchase. And, pictures are worth a thousand words. Most people can''t tell you more than you already know with the specs you listed without a pic to examine. For the record, most of us believe BIGGER IS BETTER, but I carry a rather small stone myself.


You''ve made a great selection! Good Luck with the proposal!

 

[stebbo]

Date: 11/28/2007 8:03:18 PM
Author:Pieface
Now the report doesn't give a total depth figure.

It does, it's just in millimeters, not %.

But getting a % is just simple maths:

Look for 'measurements' or 'dimensions'.

You'll see something like: 5.38 x 5.42 x 3.33mm

where: 5.38 = min diameter, 5.42 = max diameter and 3.33 = depth.

depth % = depth / average diameter

= 3.33 / ((5.38 + 5.42)/2)

= 61.7% in this particular case.

 

[Pieface]

Thanks for the welcome and the explanation somethingshiny.

I hope I don''t come off like a sourpuss with those comments. I actually meant it as a more general observation rather than referring specifically to myself and this thread. I have noted quite a few threads from guys in similar situations to myself and often the first comment is "Take it back!" or similar, this can be pretty alarming to say the least

It also kinda bangs the door in a newbies face so to speak.

I have learned heaps on pricescope in the past week or two which has been great and is a tribute to all the posters and pro''s on here but it did take a while to learn enough from the various articles to reach a point where I am again happy with the stone I purchased after the initial crushing "all IGI stones are rubbish" comments that circulate here.

Just some food for thought I hope

 

[Pieface]

Thanks Stebbo. I worked that one out on mine to 61.27% It did take me a couple of days for the cogs to turn though

Filling the data into the HCA as it best fits turns out a HCA of 1.9.

 

[NeverEndingUpgrade]

As I''ve proven before, being ignorant to the IGI being a non-respected lab, I don''t know much about this stuff, especially since I am drawn more to fancy shapes, which defy the laws of round-diamond thinking. That being said, I can''t find fault with your purchase at all. It is beautiful, and judging by the photos, well cut.

I know how you feel about feeling like you are being crushed by all these pro-sumer pricescopers out there. I like what Todd Gray (I think it was) at niceice.com said, "You''re not going to breed the thing!" (talking about your diamond).

 

[Pieface]

OK I think these show the diamond off a little better. It''s amazing what a little time can do as this is the same room and lighting as the initial shots...