Should I tell my friend what I really think?

[vespergirl]

Hey everyone,

Sorry I've been MIA lately, but things have been crazy since I've decided to go back for my Master's - I'm studying for the GRE.

Anyway, the reason that I'm popping on is because I was hoping to get your advice on something - my best friend is coming to me for help with a problem, and I'm not sure what I should tell her ...

My friend told me that she's seriously considering ending her marriage, and I think it's a really bad idea for a variety of reasons. The reason that she wants to leave is that she & her husband are fighting all the time, and she feels like he never wants to help her with their kids (they have a toddler & an infant). I have suggested that they go to counseling, and she's up for it, but doesn't think that he will go.

Here are the reasons that I don't think that she should leave him, but I don't know if I should tell her any of these, or if I did they might end the friendship:

1. She is just not nice to her husband, so from what I see he is just fed up with it & is no longer taking her nonsense without dishing it back at her. She also always turns down physical intimacy with him. She comes from a family where every relationship ended in divorce, and was a baby when her own parents split, so I know that she had no model of a relationship - just leave when the going gets tough.

2. This is her third marriage, she is in her late 30s, and she now has 2 small children. I met her after her second marriage, and even though she is attractive, she was having trouble meeting anyone who wanted to date her seriously since she had been divorced twice in her 20s, and initiated both of the divorces. I really think this is her last chance at a long-term relationship, and if she bails, I don't think she'll be able to find a man who wants to deal with her track record.

3. It's true that her husband doesn't help much with the kids, but I think it's mostly her fault. She constantly criticizes the way he takes care of them, so he just gave up, since he can't do anything right in her eyes. I think that if she stopped being so controlling, he would help more.

I've tried to give her advice on the third point, since my husband helps a lot with our kids, and she just blew it off saying that he's a different type of guy. I told her that's not true, I just don't criticize & micromanage him, and she seemed to get a little offended.

So, you can see why I am hesitating to bring up the other issues - that she treats him poorly & that I think her prospects are not good if she divorces him (she only has a GED & never went to college so even though she works her salary is low), but I don't know if it's my place - to me those things are obvious, but my husband & other friends think that since I'm her best friend I should point out all of these worst-case scenarios before she files for divorce on a whim (like she did with her first two marriages).

So, do I take her out & try to gently talk this stuff over or no? I would feel like an awful friend if I said nothing & she ended up regretting it if she leaves him, but I do feel like some of these issues are her fault, and I'm not sure that she'll take to hearing that kindly. I also feel a responsibility to those two babies to try to help the parents before it's too late. What would you do?

 

[athenaworth]

I think that if you get too involved, you'll regret it. It feels to me that a lot of your opinions of the situation are judgmental, and unfortunately things aren't always as they seem. You may see her not being nice to him, but maybe he's doing things to her that are being done behind the scenes. Basically, I don't think it's your business. I think you can be concerned for her and for him and be there as an ear, but unless you're 100% positive of your position, I honestly think staying out of it is the best bet.

 

[Indylady]

That is a tough situation, it really is. I have to commend you for being a thoughtful and concerned friend--it is really nice to hear about how much you care. On one hand, I feel like you should stay out, since its not your marriage..and on the other, I feel like you should definitely talk to her, since she is your best friend.

My mom went through a similar situation with a friend (different complaints, but basically the same vein). My mothers reasoning, and advice, was for her friend to think of her little girl: dealing with a divorce, being shuttled between mom and dad later, and losing out on the joys that come with a cohesive family unit. Hubby took her complaints seriously with the threat of an impending divorce and my mom's friend changed her mind, and she and her hubby seem to be doing much better these days.

Lots of luck and dust as you sort out your thoughts!

 

[TooPatient]

Can you suggest some good psychologists for individual and marriage counseling? (provide names & phone numbers)

Do you speak to her husband at all? If so, can you talk to him about the idea of getting into counseling? Maybe he'd be willing to go to marriage counseling and your friend won't have any excuse not to go? (for that matter, maybe he'd go to individual & couples sessions if she'd agree to do the same?)

 

[CUSO]

I am going to soooooo get hamered here for piping up...

I went to a Dr.Phil workshop my old company sent me too about 10 years ago. It was a whole weekend and boring, but I did get some good stuff, and I will share.

But 1st, you cannot save anyone from their own bad decisions. As Dr. Phil said, "you cannot change other people decisions, all you can do is change how you deal with those people".

Potentially 3 divorces?

You ever heard of the saying, "you hang with criminals and you become one, you hang with millionaires you become one". Well, you hang arround with a 3 time divorcee who makes terrible decissions?????????

I have learned some people cannot be saved from themselves, I know the agony of this 1st hand. Every time I ever tried to help someone from their own bad coices, the pain and hurt I felt is always worse than If I let them go through with what they want and just be there to help pick up the mess.

Bottom line, you must let her do what she wants, be there for her when she destroyes her life, but be ready to let go if she becomes too unstable.

 

[Haven]

Hi, Vesper--I'm sorry your friend is going through this, and I'm sorry that you're stuck in such a tough place right now.

I know everyone's friendships are different, but if I were in this situation with MY best friend, I'd tell her everything you listed in your first post. Maybe it's judgmental, maybe I don't know the entire situation, but my best friend and I tell each other everything we're thinking--the good, the bad, the ugly, and the hideous. Your friendship may be really different, but if it were me, and if the tables were turned and I was the one seeking the advice, I'd really appreciate the insight.

This may be neither here nor there, but I grew up with sisters and we've always told each other the hard truth. If she isn't the type to appreciate that, then I don't know what to say other than: good luck and I hope her situation gets better soon.

Hugs, I know how hard it is to see a good friend hurting like this.

 

[Lula]

Never get between a man and a woman. No one really knows but them what really goes on inside their marriage. She sounds like a time-sucker and you've got a lot going on in your life right now. Be supportive, but don't get sucked in. And, yes, keep recommending she (or they) see a couples counselor.

 

[onedrop]

This is a tough situation for you Vesper. I can see the pros and cons of either staying out of it or bringing your opinions to your friend, and there are compelling arguments to be made either way. However, given the fact that your friend took offense when you talked earlier about her husband's parenting style, I think I would NOT involve myself in the divorce issue. To me, her reaction means that she isn't really open to unsolicited advice right now. If she happens to ask directly what you think, then I believe you have a right to voice your honest opinions. If not, then I would just urge her to see if she can convince her husband to participate in counseling(and perhaps individual counseling for her) so that she can maybe come to the same conclusions that you have, via an unbiased third party.

I think the biggest downside of getting involved is that in my experience, friends don't always want to hear what you have to say about what you think they should do in a situation, especially of they don't outright ask for your opinion. Telling her what you think about her actions in damaging her marriage might only put a wedge between the two of you, which could be a problem because she will likely need your support should she decide to go through with the divorce. If I were you, I'd simply try and be there for her as best as I could without getting totally immersed in her marriage issues. Easier said than done I know, but that's my advice.

 

[rosetta]

Her life, her marriage, her decision.

I see no reason to interfere.

Why should you feel guilty if you say nothing and she regrets the divorce?

She is a grown woman, I assume not entirely stupid, so I'm sure she knows the consequences of her own actions.

Unless she hangs on your every word, she won't listen to you anyway.

Just be a good shoulder to cry on when the trainwreck happens.

 

[TravelingGal]

2. This is her third marriage, she is in her late 30s, and she now has 2 small children. I met her after her second marriage, and even though she is attractive, she was having trouble meeting anyone who wanted to date her seriously since she had been divorced twice in her 20s, and initiated both of the divorces. I really think this is her last chance at a long-term relationship, and if she bails, I don't think she'll be able to find a man who wants to deal with her track record.

Let her divorce. The concern here is not about her every finding a man who will want to date her with her track record. It's about understanding that marriage is work and something you are committed to. My cousin just finalized his divorce with a woman who was married once before him, but has 3 children (all with different fathers). She threatened to commit suicide if he didn't grant her the divorce (he really really wanted to work it out). When they got married, I knew the marriage had no real chance of surviving . This woman is on an eternal quest for butterflies, which marriage just isn't.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Do you think she is the type of person who will truly listen to what you have to say and is willing to change her behavior?

I ask because she's been divorced twice already and is treating her current husband poorly. If I had to guess, I would say that she's the type of woman who thinks she does nothing wrong--it's always his fault. I doubt she is able to take a look at her relationship and say "what was my role in this?"

My sister recently went through her second divorce and I was in your position. I also urged her to go to counseling and finally they did, but she spent the session talking about all of the things she disliked about him, which was a waste of time. When the counselor suggested individual sessions, she said that he was the only one who needed them.

Anyway, my point is that it's possible your friend has some deeper issues with men and these multiple failed marriages are just a consequence of those issues--this is ultimately what I determined about my own sister. I may be completely off base, but I do feel that in a situation like this--multiple failed marriages, treating a spouse poorly, overly controlling/critical--the issue is more than just a bad marriage. And I know that in my situation, I simply didn't possess the tools to fix that.

 

[swingirl]

I doubt anyone's friend could talk them into or out of a divorce. Is sounds like she is selfish (her needs over her kid's need of an intact family). Plus, there's always more to any relationship than an outsider sees.

Wanting a divorce because your husband won't help isn't exactly going to get you more help around the house. I think she has relationship/intimacy issues. The answer to your question--sure, tell her what you think, don't expect it to change her, and consider that it might change your relationship with her.

 

[TravelingGal]

I doubt anyone's friend could talk them into or out of a divorce. Is sounds like she is selfish (her needs over her kid's need of an intact family). Plus, there's always more to any relationship than an outsider sees.

Wanting a divorce because your husband won't help isn't exactly going to get you more help around the house. I think she has issues. The answer to your question--sure, tell her what you think, don't expect it to change her, and consider that it might change your relationship with her.

*snort*

 

[violet3]

how much do you love your friend? If you really care about her tell her. and then be prepared to possibly lose her as a friend for a while. it sucks, but i think about what i would say to my sister if this was happening - i would tell her, no matter what occurred as a result.

on the other hand, if this isn't one of your FOREVER friends, let it go, because it sounds like nothing good will come of it.

 

[Hera]

I would let nature take it's course without any outside interference. There seems to be a lot wrong with the marriage so maybe it will be a better thing if they do divorce. I wouldn't want my children to see constant fighting and that criticism towards their father. That's not a good way to model a relationship in my opinion.
As a friend, I can see that you are concerned about her finding someone again, but people that have issues like she does will stay on their paths until THEY realize it's not working and try to do something productive like seek professional health.

eta: I would possibly tell her the things you have to say ONE time so that you had piece of mind, but I'm sure she's aware of her shortcomings.

 

[Jennifer W]

I doubt anyone's friend could talk them into or out of a divorce. Is sounds like she is selfish (her needs over her kid's need of an intact family). Plus, there's always more to any relationship than an outsider sees.

Wanting a divorce because your husband won't help isn't exactly going to get you more help around the house. I think she has issues. The answer to your question--sure, tell her what you think, don't expect it to change her, and consider that it might change your relationship with her.

*snort*

Honestly? I would divorce a husband who didn't pull his weight. I need to live in a partnership. If he actually viewed parenting as 'helping' me, I'd have a problem, if he didn't even do that? No thank you. I like to think I wouldn't have married him in the first place, but we all make mistakes. By the time I had a toddler and an infant, and he STILL wasn't manning up to his responsibility towards his family and home, I would be as mean as sin to him too. I would barely be able to look at the creature. Criticism or not, it's his job to look after his children and his home, same as it is hers.

That's just my first and honest reaction to the small piece of information I have about the situation, and how I personally would respond to living in it. Obviously I don't know the details of this relationship, and I see the role of a friend as listening and supporting, rather than advising, so I suppose that's what I'd do in your situation, Vespergirl. Hard as it is to bite your tongue, if you want her as your friend in the long run, I think that's what you might have to do. It's hard to hear criticism from a friend, especially if you have very different views of the problem.

edited to make some sense.

 

[TravelingGal]

I doubt anyone's friend could talk them into or out of a divorce. Is sounds like she is selfish (her needs over her kid's need of an intact family). Plus, there's always more to any relationship than an outsider sees.

Wanting a divorce because your husband won't help isn't exactly going to get you more help around the house. I think she has issues. The answer to your question--sure, tell her what you think, don't expect it to change her, and consider that it might change your relationship with her.

*snort*

Honestly? I would divorce a husband who didn't pull his weight. I need to live in a partnership. If he actually viewed parenting as 'helping' me, I'd have a problem, if he didn't even do that? No thank you. I like to think I wouldn't have married him in the first place, but we all make mistakes. By the time I had a toddler and an infant, and he STILL wasn't manning up to his responsibility towards his family and home, I would be as mean as sin to him too. I would barely be able to look at the creature. Criticism or not, it's his job to look after his children and his home, same as it is hers.

That's just my first and honest reaction to the small piece of information I have about the situation, and how I personally would respond to living in it. Obviously I don't know the details of this relationship, and I see the role of a friend as listening and supporting, rather than advising, so I suppose that's what I'd do in your situation, Vespergirl. Hard as it is to bite your tongue, if you want her as your friend in the long run, I think that's what you might have to do. It's hard to hear criticism from a friend, especially if you have very different views of the problem.

edited to make some sense.

Vesper is saying he tried to help, but she criticizes the way he does it. Most men are simple that way...you keep telling them they're doing it wrong, they won't want to do it anymore. And even the kindest person can do this as a new mother...that crazy controlling maternal instinct!

As for partnership, she's not living up to her end of the bargain. If you vow to one another that you won't sleep with anyone else and will remain faithful, then you need to put out. It's just not fair to the other party to have to be celibate.

 

[Winks_Elf]

I am actually in a kind-of similar situation. A friend of mine is now going through a divorce. She told me back in the summertime that she would not be surprised if her husband filed for divorce before the holidays. The marriage has been on the rocks for YEARS, for various reasons, not the least of is my friend's anger issues as well as issues stemming from her childhood. This is a second marriage for both of them. She also told me that back before they got pregnant with her youngest (who will turn 3 in January) she felt like he was going to leave her, so she purposely stopped taking her pills, got him drunk, and got pregnant to keep him. She also refused his affections after the baby was born, for over a year, maybe two.

She was served with the papers in October. He filed for divorce in August, never said a word to her, and they are still living under the same roof (if you can call it that). In the papers, he claims she is always yelling at him and the kids, the house is always a wreck, and is fighting for custody of the kids. The irony of this is that he was rarely home. He didn't help out with the kids, was constantly "working late" (her name is Taryn), and between his real work and the rodeo he never had time for the kids. This is not a marriage by my definition.

Now, despite all of this, she was absolutely shellshocked when the papers came. I allowed her to boo-hoo in my ear, but I kept my mouth shut because what I really wanted to say to her was "Well, what did you expect? You knew the marriage was over a long time ago, yet you trapped him with another baby. You were a witch to him, the house was always a constant health hazard, and you were always laying around in your room watching movies instead of taking care of the kids and stopping the little one from getting into things." Every time I saw her baby she had a diaper full of urine or poop, and when I watched her child on Halloween (freezing and windy!) she knew I was taking her to the outdoor parade, but she didn't even have a jacket for the kid and she was wearing a dress!

The bits of advice I have given her (legal issues with the divorce since I went through one just a few years ago) fell on deaf ears. I took her to the court to get the paperwork to protect her custody of the kids, and despite practically holding her hand she never got the paperwork in. She can say she's going to fight for her kids, but actions speak louder than words. It's gotten to the point that I can't even talk to her without getting angry and sick to my stomach about the mistakes she is making, so I've backed off. I now talk to her maybe once a week, try to keep it light, and even that conversation is strained.

Some people are their own worst enemy. There's nothing you can do to prevent them from self-destructing. You can, however, distance yourself from the fallout.

 

[vespergirl]

You all made a lot of good points. Several people mentioned that there is probably more to it than she is telling me - as NEL suggested, she is definitely one of those people who thinks that she is always right in the relationship, and the husband is always wrong, so I do listen to her complaints with a grain of salt. Trust me, her husband is not a perfect guy, but they have been together for several years, and I think before he was always willing to indulge her & ignore the hurtful comments before, but I think now he has had enough, and that's why he's been nasty back at her - being nice wasn't getting him anywhere. We see them all the time & vacation together as families, so we do see a lot of their dynamic, but I agree that we don't see everything.

With most people I would just totally stay out of it, except to suggest couples counseling, but my friend is extremely upfront with the rest of us (sometimes painfully blunt) so I feel like maybe this is a time to tell her what I think, since she is never shy to tell other people her opinion. I'm not normally the type to get involved, but I feel like she needs to have it pointed out to her that their problems are not 100% his fault, and that they BOTH need to change the way that they communicate with each other if they want their marriage to work. DH is buddies with her husband, so he has offered to suggest to him that they get couples counseling for the sake of their kids if he initially refuses to go.

NEL & TGal, the situations with your family members sound pretty similar to my friend's situation. I think that she is "chasing the butterflies," and divorced the first two husbands when it wasn't "romance-novel" type love anymore. Also, she is the oldest of 6 kids from 3 different dads, so her mom (who has now been alone for years) didn't set a good example for trying to make relationships work. Basically, there would be a big fight, & then she would gather up her kids & leave, only to move on to the next guy, and the whole thing would repeat.

I do agree that it's terrible for the children to see them fight all the time - I grew up in a family where my parents fought all the time, and I used to pray that they would divorce (they never did), because I couldn't stand the fighting. So, while I wish they would work it out, maybe it's better for the kids to not have to hear the fighting all the time.

It's really so sad because they are both our good friends & we love them both, and it's hard to know how much to share when I'm being asked for advice. I think that I will try to get a list of couple's counselors in their area, because maybe that's the best thing I can do to help for now, and hopefully the therapist can help them see what they're both doing to sabotage the marriage without me having to point it out ...

 

[Jennifer W]

Yes, criticism like that is horrible to deal with. I can see why that would drive someone bat sh*t crazy very quickly. I still don't see it as a pass to stop participating though. Not wanting to do it anymore isn't good enough, in my book. You don't try to help to care for your children and home, you take on half the responsibility. Not saying her criticising him is helping one iota, it's clearly a problem, but I'd see that as something that has to be dealt with, and part of the responsibility as a spouse and parent is to deal with the things that stop you being effective in the role, regardless of gender.

As for putting out, I agree that parties to a marriage made a vow to do more or less that when the agreed to forsake all others, but it isn't an automatic right. If the relationship is under strain, it may be something she isn't comfortable with at all. She sounds like she's angry with him.

Ok, I'm speculating on someone's marriage based on a few lines of text on a forum. That probably says more about me than her. My problem here is that I see red whenever I see parenting and housekeeping by men as something that's done to help women. It pushes every button I have.

 

[Jennifer W]

Vesper, I think we were posting at the same time.

I think you and your DH both suggesting counselling is an excellent idea - what you've described sounds like symptoms of a deeper problem. I really hope they can address it and find a solution that keeps their family together.

I meant to say in my earlier post, you mention that she doesn't have a model of a successful long term relationship, but actually she does. You and your DH have been together a long time and from what you've said on PS, it's a very successful and happy marriage. Maybe that's part of why she wants your advice.

 

[Circe]

Agree with every single word from Jen - it's not "helping out" for a man to take care of his own children, and sex isn't (or, shouldn't be) another obligation on par with cleaning the stove. If she's ticked at him for the former, it's not surprising that she's less inclined to the latter ....

That said, would I tell her what I'm thinking? Yes. I'm ridiculously outspoken, not to mention pig-headed: I'm probably better at dishing it out than I am at taking it, but I've always tried my damnedest to tell my friends what I think they need to hear, and to listen to their genuine concerns (even when I think they're wrong, off-base, or insulting). That said, I might consider just how to phrase this, 'cause if I was having marital difficulties and a friend came to me with (paraphrasing here), "Hon, you're just not going to do any better," I might feel more maligned and as though someone was asking me to give up on myself than encouraged to work on my marriage.

Definitely tell her about how the carping and abuse come across (I don't know what, if anything, he's saying to her in private, but I do think criticizing a partner in public is low). Definitely tell her that you see a pattern, and it worries you, and you think she might benefit from some counseling (if you're in NY, I can recommend an awesome counselor). With the rest of it, maybe leave it to a counselor to point it out? They're paid for it, and that way, if she wants to shoot the messenger, at least the friendship will stand a shot at surviving ....

 

[fieryred33143]

You know Vesper, these reasons don't sound like good reasons for them to stay together at all. And if he really is fed up as you say, then maybe the marriage really is over?

I understand your concern, I would be too. But while it would be convenient for them to stay, is it really worth it? I do agree with suggesting she go to counseling for herself.

 

[House Cat]

When a person is overly critical, it is usually them spewing the ugliness they have inside of themselves out onto the world. She probably really loves her husband as much as she can but is a steaming cauldron of self loathing and can't TRULY love anyone. I mean, two failed marriages and another well on its way. Enough said.

Couples therapy never works if someone is carrying around these kind of deep issues. What ends up happening is that the therapist ends up focusing on the unhealthy partner, while the other spouse sits in on the session. Another scenario is that the therapist simply can't make any headway because of the extremely unhealthy partner.

Your friend needs individual therapy first. She needs to learn to love and accept herself first. Then she will learn how to project real love and acceptance on to the people around her. You know where this will be MOST important? The marriage seems very critical, yes, but actually, when those children become older, THAT is where she is going to need this acceptance most. Otherwise she will be criticizing those poor kids right into the therapist's office themselves.

Maybe another divorce will make her look inward? Three divorces is pretty heavy. I can't imagine thinking it's all the other person's fault at that point. Most people aren't divorced that many times at such a young age or ever. I don't know...How good is your friendship again?

 

[iLander]

The reason that she wants to leave is that she & her husband are fighting all the time, and she feels like he never wants to help her with their kids (they have a toddler & an infant).

What would you do?

I'm sorry, but I would have to say something. I can't handle holding things in for very long, and the chips will fly, but she came to you for advice. If she didn't want your opinion, she shouldn't have asked for it. You said "my best friend is coming to me for help with a problem". Does she really want help, or just a cheering section?

I would at least point out that if she truly Does want ANY help with her kids, then getting rid of the husband is pretty stupid. it's her decision if she thinks piss-poor help is better than no help at all. Does she not know how HARD it is to be a single mother?

But I think her whole story is a cover. I think she sees the handwriting on the wall, knows he's sick of her and that their time together will soon end. She's trying to come up with an "oh, I dropped him" story. Is that a possibility?

This reminds me of that Kate woman on the show with the eight kids. She was rude, intolerant and nasty to her husband (I think she actually yelled across a store for him?). I was amazed he stayed with her as long as he did. She constantly criticized everything he did.

If a man was that rude and nasty to his wife, wouldn't we all be telling her to dump him? Why are the women given a free pass to be mean?

You seem plenty close enough to see a lot of what's going on. Even if you can't "see inside" their relationship, she came to you and asked what you thought. So tell her. But she will be pissed, so be ready for that.

If you don't want her to be pissed, just do what you said; give her the name of a counselor. She needs it!

 

[iLander]

I can't imagine thinking it's all the other person's fault at that point.

You'd be amazed! Some people are so narcissistic, they think NOTHING is their fault, ever. My dad is a perfect example of this. You can show them all the evidence on God's green earth and they don't believe you. It's amazing to watch these people in action . . .

 

[NovemberBride]

You know Vesper, these reasons don't sound like good reasons for them to stay together at all. And if he really is fed up as you say, then maybe the marriage really is over?

I understand your concern, I would be too. But while it would be convenient for them to stay, is it really worth it? I do agree with suggesting she go to counseling for herself.

1. Ditto to Fiery -you want to tell your friend to stay with her husband because she won't be a "good catch" after another divorce with young kids? If my good friend said that to me I'd be pretty insulted and anyways, it's a terrible reason to stay in a marriage.

2. Ditto to Jenn. My DH does not "help me" with DD. My DH does his share of the parenting of OUR child. If I had to offer "favors" to get DH to take care of his own child I wouldn't be married for very long either. I don't see how it can be her fault that he doesn't help. He is one of two parents, in my book that means he is responsible for at least 50% of the child care. Whether his wife is the nicest person or the nastiest person in the world has no bearing on his responsibility to care for his child. When DH and I fight he doesn't stop giving DD her bath at night, or getting up in the middle of the night when she wakes up. Our fighting is separate and has nothing to do with his responsibility towards his daughter.

3. I do think you have valid points regarding her fear of intimacy and lack of role models. If you do decide to say anything, I'd strongly suggest dropping the other points and suggesting therapy to deal with this issue. Then it is up to her to take it or leave it.

 

[vespergirl]

iLander, you hit the nail on the head. She treats her husband exactly that that woman Kate from Jon & Kate Plus 8. I hate to say it, but my parents are very much like that, and their marriage is miserable. I vowed to never be like that in a relationship after growing up with that kind of abuse in the family, but I can't ever imagine treating my husband like that, because I respect him too much. Come to think of it, my friend has been talking for a couple of years now how she has totally lost respect for her husband (mostly because she feels like he doesn't do anything with the kids) so I wonder if that's where that type of behavior starts ...

JenniferW, you're very sweet for what you said about my marriage. We are far from perfect, but we do try to be real partners to each other, and really listen to & respond to each other. I think the reason that DH & I get along so well is because we do have a lot of respect for the other, and if there is an issue that is bothering one of us, we listen, take it seriously, and try to remedy it. We have had more than one "agree to disagree" or compromise situations, where no one is 100% happy with a resolution, but I guess that's just part of being a couple made up of two different people. I see the dynamic between my friend & her husband as being very confrontational & dismissive of each other & they are both dying to be right about everything (in public) and even though I think they both enjoyed the drama of that type of relationship early on, now it's really wearing both of them down.

NovemberBride, you made a really good point about me not wanting them to break up because of her being a bad "catch" after 3 divorces - that totally came out sounding bad the way I explained it. The reason that I mentioned it is because when we met she had just finalized her second divorce, and we were both single & dating. Full disclosure, I am also divorced - I had a 2 year "starter marriage" to my college sweetheart when I was 23, but we divorced amicably without children when I was 25, and then I married my husband when I was 29 - we've been happily together for 6 years now. Anyway, a few of the men that she dated learned that she had been divorced twice by the age of 27 and told her flat out that they were not interested in a relationship with her because she seemed to have problems with commitment (each marriage lasted just under a year). She was so hurt when they told her this, and she cried on my shoulder about it, & wanted to know if I was also having this issue while dating (it never came up, but who knows if anyone felt that way about dating someone divorced & didn't tell me). I just feel like I need to remind her that it made her feel super-crappy when people thought of her that way some years ago, so it's not going to be any better after a third failed marriage - the same issues exist, and unless she addresses them, the next relationship would be just as doomed.

I also wanted to mention that I TOTALLY agree with those of you who are mentioning that the husband shouldn't be "helping" with the kids - my bad - I am the first person to correct anyone around me when I am doing things without the kids & some dolt asks me, "Oh, is your husband babysitting?" My response is always, "No, he's PARENTING his own children!" So, sorry for the stupid phrasing - I totally agree that he should be more involved because that is his inherent responsibility.

 

[iLander]

iLander, you hit the nail on the head. She treats her husband exactly that that woman Kate from Jon & Kate Plus 8. I hate to say it, but my parents are very much like that, and their marriage is miserable. I vowed to never be like that in a relationship after growing up with that kind of abuse in the family, but I can't ever imagine treating my husband like that, because I respect him too much. Come to think of it, my friend has been talking for a couple of years now how she has totally lost respect for her husband (mostly because she feels like he doesn't do anything with the kids) so I wonder if that's where that type of behavior starts ...

If she has lost respect for him, that the marriage seems pretty over to me . . . I don't think you can save it at this point, even if you do try to talk to her. Sorry to say, but that's how it smells to me.

 

[Dreamer_D]

In your exact situation I would just sympathize and say, "I can't tell you what to do, but I will support you and listen to you through whatever you decide".

In the end, she would not listen to your advice anyways.

Sorry about this hon. I know for me, it is hard to maintain a friendship with someone when they are in such a different place in their life than I am. If you don't agree with her and it is too much for you to keep your mouth shut, then perhaps trying to avoid that topic? It will limit your friendship, but that is ok I think. I have a few frienships where our relationships with our husbands are really not talked about at all.