Shopping spree: Mogok blue Sapphire?

[Sydneyphoenix]

Okay, I know I went on a rampage lately on getting the ruby, I am still thinking of getting an imperial jade cabochon, but while that's happening, took a look at a local supplier for Burmese sapphire. He showed me a few stones in sub-2ct range, and while he will come back with photos of several stones in low-1ct ranges, the best he came up with thus far is this supposedly unheated Mogok sapphire, 1.85ct. Clarity claimed as VS-SI, with some visible inclusions.

On the initial photo (first one in the set), I couldn't detect much in terms of inclusions, so he sent me a few more with close-ups to show some white feathers. I know you can't really put your nose right onto the stone as the eye goes out of the focus so perhaps the inclusions are not deal-breakers. As for cuts, I don't see much of the windows but wonder if there are significant colour-zoning, or other undesirable aspect that should make me pause. But given how benefit from "shark-pit" trial for the ruby-I knew what I was signing up for when I confirmed the purchase), wanted to see what the expert panel reckons.

 

[qubitasaurus]

I love it but wouldn't expect the colour to match the photos. Tweezer photos tend to look a bit different from what you'll see in real life as with the tweezers you end up with light flooding the stone from the bottom, the top and the sides. Whereas once it is set the stone will often only get light shining on it from the crown. It significantly changes the tone. Also the tweezers look a little blueish to me in those photos -- I just have a feeling about it, and usually I follow these feelings. Try to get some photos on the back of someone's hand and on a piece of white paper. Hard to judge it fairly without the reference points.

By the way on an unrelated note (but since you raised it in the title) are you sure you want to settle all your big purchases all at once? Usually I find its a bit like feeling your way through something, you kind of get an idea off the first purchase and then you get more of an idea once that is set 6-12 months later, and by that time you know more vendors and jewelers. Also no matter what I buy I am still looking 6 months later.... I can tell its partially about the looking for me so I almost can't ever be finished. I guess once I realized this I stopped trying to finish my list of stuff and just accepted I loved X and therefore could let myself buy more of X as apposed to deliberately trying to collect -- not sure if that makes sense.

 

[voce]

Color looks good to me despite inclusions, though I, too, wonder what it'll look like in a handshot, which mimics the look once set more so than the tweezer shots. I've seen loose stones look darker in tone after setting.

Do you find yourself more of a seasonal collector like me? I go through phases where I look more and phases where I look less, depending on how busy I am, and how the stock market is doing. Feel the need to distract myself when I'm losing significant unrealized "value" in my retirement accounts.

 

[Bron357]

It’s a lovely colour.
However, the sapphire looks to have been photographed under very bright white light. That’s not how you will be seeing it.
I‘d ask for more photos / video, outside in natural day light and against a white background. You will also be able to see any zoning that way.
Its only an unheated sapphire from Mogok if that’s what the “reputable” lab certificate says.
Do you have the dimensions? Hard to tell the face up size from photos without any reference.

 

[Sydneyphoenix]

I love it but wouldn't expect the colour to match the photos. Tweezer photos tend to look a bit different from what you'll see in real life as with the tweezers you end up with light flooding the stone from the bottom, the top and the sides. Whereas once it is set the stone will often only get light shining on it from the crown. It significantly changes the tone. Also the tweezers look a little blueish to me in those photos -- I just have a feeling about it, and usually I follow these feelings. Try to get some photos on the back of someone's hand and on a piece of white paper. Hard to judge it fairly without the reference points.

By the way on an unrelated note (but since you raised it in the title) are you sure you want to settle all your big purchases all at once? Usually I find its a bit like feeling your way through something, you kind of get an idea off the first purchase and then you get more of an idea once that is set 6-12 months later, and by that time you know more vendors and jewelers. Also no matter what I buy I am still looking 6 months later.... I can tell its partially about the looking for me so I almost can't ever be finished. I guess once I realized this I stopped trying to finish my list of stuff and just accepted I loved X and therefore could let myself buy more of X as apposed to deliberately trying to collect -- not sure if that makes sense.

Thank you for the input. I agree with what you are saying about setting changing the tone a lot, I will probably ask for a video or photos with stone on the table. I did not think about tweezers colour, that could be a influencing factor too!

Well, I would call it retail therapy almost, ups and down lately, and we've been in lockdown for more than 3 months, so need to distract myself. But yes, looking at budgets and I believe I can do split payments with this vendor, I suppose I can also try to sell the jade cabochon which seem to be more of "Meh" longer I keep it (unlike the ruby thus far!), probably too spoilt by eye-candies from the suspicious Awethentic Jade people in Melbourne or more legit but still expensive Kathy's in Taiwan. For what it's worth, the asking price is lower than what I paid for my heated ruby, which is apparently "average" per the panel here! Shows you how much of disparity there are between pricing of rubies and sapphires...

Color looks good to me despite inclusions, though I, too, wonder what it'll look like in a handshot, which mimics the look once set more so than the tweezer shots. I've seen loose stones look darker in tone after setting.

Do you find yourself more of a seasonal collector like me? I go through phases where I look more and phases where I look less, depending on how busy I am, and how the stock market is doing. Feel the need to distract myself when I'm losing significant unrealized "value" in my retirement accounts.

I am glad you guys seem happy with colour, and from what you are saying, you do not seem too bothered by inclusions either? Goodness the feathers are on the side and they are white/light rather than dark spot in the middle as in one of cornflower sapphires the vendor showed me so hopefully doesn't damage aesthetics or values too much! The tone becoming deeper with setting was part of rationale for looking at this stone, this seemed to be "lighter" end of what he called "Royal blue" compared to others he showed me.

I certainly look like a seasonal collector, or at least I expect I won't have as much funding and time to pursue gemstones after I get married so trying to get ahead of myself (haven't set any of recent purchases to anything yet), and perhaps can choose one of the stones as an engagement ring if things works out...the fact that not much to do with lockdown now stretching to fourth month in Sydney doesn't help with shopping spree.

It’s a lovely colour.
However, the sapphire looks to have been photographed under very bright white light. That’s not how you will be seeing it.
I‘d ask for more photos / video, outside in natural day light and against a white background. You will also be able to see any zoning that way.
Its only an unheated sapphire from Mogok if that’s what the “reputable” lab certificate says.
Do you have the dimensions? Hard to tell the face up size from photos without any reference.

Looks like concern about lighting and tweezers for photos seem to be recurring concern from the panel, thank you. I will try and ask for photos on the bench or videos when I talk to the vendors tomorrow, he said he will give me a call. But so far not bad for you?!

The vendor last time didn't sound too keen about overseas certificate but I will give it another try, he was quite honest with the last transaction, just that I didn't fall in love with jade as I imagined I would. But if I can get him to send the stone to AGL or at least GRS or Lotus (I know he has sent stuff to Lotus before), that will be great. The dimensions he quoted was 1.85ct, 7.5 x 6.1 x 5.0mm.

 

[Sydneyphoenix]

Some other stones the vendor showed me thus far:

Heated Ceylon, 1.52ct



Unheated Burmese, apparently eye-clean intense purplish blue? 1.78ct. This one is actually more than 50% more expensive than the one I put up at the beginning of the thread, probably because it's eye-clean but was more worried about colour-zoning.



Don't have a specs on this one yet, just got the photo today, but apparently eye-clean cornflower blue. But I can see a dark inclusion near the middle, much more easily than feathers of the original 1.85ct...

He showed me a couple of other stones but they have way more visible feathers than the original 1.85ct stone.

 

[voce]

Make sure you have a lab report from a reputable lab to corroborate. It makes me suspicious that 1) it's being marketed as a Mogok sapphire, as I've mostly seen Burmese sapphires marketed as just Burmese by my trusted vendors and 2) I've seen untreated Burmese blue sapphires valued the same $/ct as Burmese heated rubies, so I would question why it's cheap if it doesn't come with a lab report that I can trust.

I strongly recommend not splitting the payments, as any kind of layaway plan would negate, or greatly complicate, the possibility of a return. You haven't seen the stone IRL yet, so there's always the chance the inclusions will bother you, or the color doesn't look the same in your part of the world.

 

[Bron357]

When it comes to paying the premium for an origin you really need a lab report from a well known lab.
For Australia the closest is Lotus.
That’s not saying any report from an Australian gemmologist is worthless it’s just that origin in Sapphires can require specialised testing and as far as I know, no one in Australia has the appropriate equipment.
It often comes down to analysis at an atomic level to determine.
I think my two round sapphires are Burmese origin and because that makes a huge difference to their value, and as a pair, I’m taking them, once we can travel again, to Lotus along with the rubies. I’m not happy to post them.
In any regard, if I was buying, certainly treatment level is critical but as for origin, I think that’s way less important than colour, tone and hue. Yes, Burmese sapphires can show a magnificent vivid blue colour, but so too can sapphires from other origins. So I’d say buy what you see not just the origin name on the certificate.

 

[minousbijoux]

I agree with @qubitasaurus re the possibly of amped up hue of the stone and would insist on a hand shot. Also, do be aware that any eye visible inclusions will absolutely knock the value down of the stone. That said, it is absolutely lovely in the first pic, as is the other 1.78 ct unheated Burmese he showed you - in fact, that would likely be my pick, assuming a validating hand shot.

 

[demantoidz]

Is there a reason you want Burmese origin?

I find that Sri Lankan stones can look just as good, and are generally less expensive. I don't get the appeal of Burma origin for sapphires.

Personal preference and all that, or maybe there's a charm about Burma origin that I don't know about that someone could explain to me and future readers.

I'm biased towards high quality Madagascan sapphires. My favorites are the ones with a Kashmir-like silk and color. I have a few more examples saved, but here's just one. The seller was an Indian store called GemPundit whom I've never used before, so can't speak about the accuracy of the photos. But the GRS report carries some meaning.

 

[Sydneyphoenix]

Make sure you have a lab report from a reputable lab to corroborate. It makes me suspicious that 1) it's being marketed as a Mogok sapphire, as I've mostly seen Burmese sapphires marketed as just Burmese by my trusted vendors and 2) I've seen untreated Burmese blue sapphires valued the same $/ct as Burmese heated rubies, so I would question why it's cheap if it doesn't come with a lab report that I can trust.

I strongly recommend not splitting the payments, as any kind of layaway plan would negate, or greatly complicate, the possibility of a return. You haven't seen the stone IRL yet, so there's always the chance the inclusions will bother you, or the color doesn't look the same in your part of the world.

Thank you. No, split-payment was a spur of moment thing, but given there's no financial issues and given your concerns regarding possible return, the idea is dead.

My suspicion as to the vendor labelling it specifically "Mogok" is that he is of Burmese descent and believe have family mining contact in the country, so may be personally vouching for it. I understand the labs usually do not make distinctions for regions within Burma for sapphires as opposed to origin, I guess may not be able to verify it independently...I suppose there's no signature for "Mogok" sapphires unlike rubies (e.g. fluorescence) and it doesn't make much difference in appearance or value?

When it comes to paying the premium for an origin you really need a lab report from a well known lab.
For Australia the closest is Lotus.
That’s not saying any report from an Australian gemmologist is worthless it’s just that origin in Sapphires can require specialised testing and as far as I know, no one in Australia has the appropriate equipment.
It often comes down to analysis at an atomic level to determine.
I think my two round sapphires are Burmese origin and because that makes a huge difference to their value, and as a pair, I’m taking them, once we can travel again, to Lotus along with the rubies. I’m not happy to post them.
In any regard, if I was buying, certainly treatment level is critical but as for origin, I think that’s way less important than colour, tone and hue. Yes, Burmese sapphires can show a magnificent vivid blue colour, but so too can sapphires from other origins. So I’d say buy what you see not just the origin name on the certificate.

Amazing stones, Bron!. Yeah my plan is to ask the vendor (just got a missed call from him, so talking to him hopefully straight after typing this) to send to Lotus or GRS, or if he refuses run it through basic appraisal then take it along to SE Asia for certification after you travel. What sizes/dimensions are your beauties, thinking of earrings?

I agree with re the possibly of amped up hue of the stone and would insist on a hand shot. Also, do be aware that any eye visible inclusions will absolutely knock the value down of the stone. That said, it is absolutely lovely in the first pic, as is the other 1.78 ct unheated Burmese he showed you - in fact, that would likely be my pick, assuming a validating hand shot.

Hmm, no one spoke much about the feathers thus far, so interesting you say they matter a lot. I initially preferred 1.85ct cos I couldn't see obvious inclusions on first shot and thought 1.78ct's colour is a bit too dark, but maybe eye-cleanliness is why it's more than 50% more expensive...

Is there a reason you want Burmese origin?

I find that Sri Lankan stones can look just as good, and are generally less expensive. I don't get the appeal of Burma origin for sapphires.

Personal preference and all that, or maybe there's a charm about Burma origin that I don't know about that someone could explain to me and future readers.

I'm biased towards high quality Madagascan sapphires. My favorites are the ones with a Kashmir-like silk and color. I have a few more examples saved, but here's just one. The seller was an Indian store called GemPundit whom I've never used before, so can't speak about the accuracy of the photos. But the GRS report carries some meaning.





[/USER]

I think years back I read about traditional pecking order for sapphires being Kashmir>Burma>Ceylon>Others and it may have stuck with me, especially with real Kashmir being really not around anymore, lol. No but in seriousness I see way more Ceylon/Sri Lanka compared to Burma for sapphire in the market, so maybe there is that rarity component. I don't think sapphires are known for fluorescence like rubies are, so that's not part of the equation. Perhaps it's simply about having previous decent transaction with this vendor, reasonable prices and being local (well within Australia) so less of postage and customs hassles.

Mind you the 1.85ct Burma the vendor is offering is substantially cheaper than the Madagascar 1.22ct you posted, so maybe those inclusions are plummeting the prices right down, lolz...

 

[demantoidz]

I think years back I read about traditional pecking order for sapphires being Kashmir>Burma>Ceylon>Others and it may have stuck with me, especially with real Kashmir being really not around anymore, lol. No but in seriousness I see way more Ceylon/Sri Lanka compared to Burma for sapphire in the market, so maybe there is that rarity component. I don't think sapphires are known for fluorescence like rubies are, so that's not part of the equation. Perhaps it's simply about having previous decent transaction with this vendor, reasonable prices and being local (well within Australia) so less of postage and customs hassles.

Mind you the 1.85ct Burma the vendor is offering is substantially cheaper than the Madagascar 1.22ct you posted, so maybe those inclusions are plummeting the prices right down, lolz...

fair enough about the traditional pecking order of sapphires, I suppose I just never understood the status of Burmese ones even if theyre rarer.

You could probs find a similar stone to the one I posted for less; esp if it had inclusions. Just giving an example of what Madagascan material in capable of, but again, I'm biased. If your heart is set on Burmese origin, then thats what you should be looking for, as long as its an educated decision.

 

[Bron357]

The thing is they do demand a premium price for Burmese origin sapphires. If unheated and of good colour, the price can really go up.
With my pair, at one stage I was thinking setting one and selling the other and even bought a diamond ring Mount but then found another cushion sapphire and so kept them as a pair.
I spoke to my jeweller here in Sydney about doing some “simple” drops with a diamond halo and the quote was over $5,000!
Yup, they are 9mm round so it’s like 12 x .10 point diamonds x2.
So unless they really are Burmese I won’t spend that much on setting them.

 

[Sydneyphoenix]

The thing is they do demand a premium price for Burmese origin sapphires. If unheated and of good colour, the price can really go up.
With my pair, at one stage I was thinking setting one and selling the other and even bought a diamond ring Mount but then found another cushion sapphire and so kept them as a pair.
I spoke to my jeweller here in Sydney about doing some “simple” drops with a diamond halo and the quote was over $5,000!
Yup, they are 9mm round so it’s like 12 x .10 point diamonds x2.
So unless they really are Burmese I won’t spend that much on setting them.

9mm look way bigger than 1.2ct, more like 2.2!!

 

[Bron357]

9mm look way bigger than 1.2ct, more like 2.2!!

2.97 and 2.98 !

 

[Sydneyphoenix]

2.97 and 2.98 !

Dang so close to 3ct mark!!

Okay got some videos and more photos (on the ground) for the original 1.85ct from the vendor. I understand I can’t put the videos up but the feathers seem to be easily visible only on tilt angle in video. He said he will look into AIGS or Lotus for sending the stone for certification. If I buy this one (and maybe a cute black opal ~$500), that’s it for this year, given Kathys anticipate chasing an imperial jade cabochon may go into next year…

 

[voce]

Do you have the face up dimensions or a picture of the sapphire from the side? Another reason for cheaper price is if the stone holds more of its weight in the depth instead of face up size. A lighter, less saturated material will look more saturated if the stone is cut deeper, but stones cut deeper sometimes require custom mounts, since they're typically more bottom-heavy than diamonds, and most readily available mounts were created for diamonds.

 

[Sydneyphoenix]

Do you have the face up dimensions or a picture of the sapphire from the side? Another reason for cheaper price is if the stone holds more of its weight in the depth instead of face up size. A lighter, less saturated material will look more saturated if the stone is cut deeper, but stones cut deeper sometimes require custom mounts, since they're typically more bottom-heavy than diamonds, and most readily available mounts were created for diamonds.

Reviewing the video, but in the meantime, the dimensions are apparently 1.85ct, 7.5 x 6.1 x 5.0mm. What should I be looking for in the video? Just took a couple of side and bottom up shots from the video.

 

[voce]

Reviewing the video, but in the meantime, the dimensions are apparently 1.85ct, 7.5 x 6.1 x 5.0mm. What should I be looking for in the video?

It's not too bad for depth. Look for brilliance/scintillation vs silkiness in the video and color shifts, if any.

 

[Sydneyphoenix]

So an update, paid a deposit for 1.85ct stone and sending it for Lotus certification, can take 3-4 weeks.

@Bron357 did your vendor not offer certification by Lotus or GRS before you bought your sapphires? They look maybe a touch deeper than one I’m likely buying.

 

[Bron357]

So an update, paid a deposit for 1.85ct stone and sending it for Lotus certification, can take 3-4 weeks.

@Bron357 did your vendor not offer certification by Lotus or GRS before you bought your sapphires? They look maybe a touch deeper than one I’m likely buying.

I acquired a heap of gemstones aka the gem haul from a deceased estate house auction. I randomly bid on a tatty cardboard box full of dust, dead insects and rusted shut small tins that had been hauled out of the bottom of an old wardrobe or from under the bed.
So I didn’t even know I was buying gemstones.

 

[Sydneyphoenix]

I acquired a heap of gemstones aka the gem haul from a deceased estate house auction. I randomly bid on a tatty cardboard box full of dust, dead insects and rusted shut small tins that had been hauled out of the bottom of an old wardrobe or from under the bed.
So I didn’t even know I was buying gemstones.

So hit the jackpot! Fingers crossed mine is Burmese unheated (have no reason not to believe, vendor has been upfront about origin and treatments), that will be last gemstone for the year. Inclusions not too distracting on video and no fissures to the surface…
Then “only” have a no-oil Colombian emerald, Russian Alexandrite and excellent no-hear Burmese ruby on bucket list, apart from an “imperial” jade cabochon…

 

[Sydneyphoenix]

So the certificate from Lotus arrived, and surprised to show it describing the stone as “Cornflower blue”, thought it will be “royal” or “velvet” blue from videos, especially given Burma is not known for cornflower blue sapphires. Monikers don’t mean much but I will take it if a lab wants to give that designation. Apparently the stone (as well as a pretty semi-black opal I picked up from the same shop) is on the way from Melbourne today, might get to Sydney tomorrow if lucky or otherwise early next week. Quite excited!!

 

[whitewave]

So the certificate from Lotus arrived, and surprised to show it describing the stone as “Cornflower blue”, thought it will be “royal” or “velvet” blue from videos, especially given Burma is not known for cornflower blue sapphires. Monikers don’t mean much but I will take it if a lab wants to give that designation. Apparently the stone (as well as a pretty semi-black opal I picked up from the same shop) is on the way from Melbourne today, might get to Sydney tomorrow if lucky or otherwise early next week. Quite excited!!

I can’t wait to see a hundred pics lol

 

[peacechick]

So the certificate from Lotus arrived, and surprised to show it describing the stone as “Cornflower blue”, thought it will be “royal” or “velvet” blue from videos, especially given Burma is not known for cornflower blue sapphires. Monikers don’t mean much but I will take it if a lab wants to give that designation. Apparently the stone (as well as a pretty semi-black opal I picked up from the same shop) is on the way from Melbourne today, might get to Sydney tomorrow if lucky or otherwise early next week. Quite excited!!

Very nice, congratulations and enjoy! It is a beautiful stone and yes, I would have calles it cornflower blue too. It’s definitely in that range if the seller’s photos are accurate, which Lotus seems to indicate they are.

 

[ringo865]

Awesome! Please come back and flood us with pictures! (and the opal too)

It looks beautiful!

 

[voce]

Congratulations! Do you have plans to set this sapphire yet?

 

[Sydneyphoenix]

Congratulations! Do you have plans to set this sapphire yet?

Yeah, something like this, as a LOTR fan…

Gold VILYA - The Ring of ELROND™

Vilya, The Mightiest of the Three, is the Elven Ring of Power belonging to Elrond. Vilya is described as a gold ring holding a great blue stone. The officially licensed Vilya is available in yellow gold, white gold, and rose gold in US sizes 5 to 20.

badalijewelry.com

 

[LilAlex]

Yeah, something like this, as a LOTR fan…

Hahahaha -- good one! You'd think the Art Nouveau-inspired Elven realm would do better metal work.

No, really, though....what are you going to do with it??

 

[Sydneyphoenix]

I meant it when I put it up, eventually might make Nenya and Narya as well. Do you think it ugly or unsuitable?