Shame on Tanzania

[VapidLapid]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-46048804

I will no longer buy stones, or anything else for that matter, from Tanzania

 

[telephone89]

That's terrible! Ugh and closing HIV clinics because it promotes homosexuality is an awful move.

 

[Calliecake]

OMG this is terrible.

 

[Tekate]

terrible.

 

[OoohShiny]

Closed-minded, backwards-looking bigots using and preaching archaic religion-based texts and practices and 'belief' to stir up hatred and justify non-sensical restrictions and disproportionate punishment of others, despite all modern evidence-based knowledge clearly indicating it's BS?

Surely not.

 

[LemonMoonLex]

Closed-minded, backwards-looking bigots using and preaching archaic religion-based texts and practices and 'belief' to stir up hatred and justify non-sensical restrictions and disproportionate punishment of others, despite all modern evidence-based knowledge clearly indicating it's BS?

Surely not.

Damn. ^What she said

 

[babs23r]

Sickening

 

[perry]

More concerning Tanzania:

Despite the current government; I would encourage a reconsideration on buying stones from Tanzania.

For almost 20 years I have sponsored the care and education and for what was initially a young child (now a young adult) in Tanzania through World Vision. As such I get personal letters and reports of local events - and as that person is now an adult it no longer has to be filtered by World Vision and I can communicate more directly.

The mining and processing of gemstones does provide real jobs and income to the local people in those areas where it occurs. They are faultless in the government's actions.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[missy]

**edited, please no bible quotes per the policies**
I wish you all well; and everyone please vote...

Perry

Perry, with all due respect, you do know the bible was written by men and is subjective and not fact. I will not pick apart the entire bible for many reasons. One I have no wish to offend those who believe in the bible but I could not let you write that without commenting. And two I have no energy to pick apart the entire bible and have no wish to change your beliefs or anyone's beliefs concerning religion and the bible. If they bring you peace so be it and religion is useful for some for that very reason.

However when religion and the bible is used to make one feel badly about themselves and about what they cannot change because one is born homosexual or heterosexual well that is not OK. When it is used to make one group feel superior to another that is not OK. When religion is used to tear people apart that is not OK. And that is the only reason I am commenting on your post.

A few examples where the bible is just not right:

The age of the earth is determined to be billions of years old, as opposed to the 12000 / 6000 years that creationists believe.

Much through biblical times it was though that the sun rotates around the earth, when in actual fact the solar system is helio-centric: i.e. the earth rotates around the sun.

It was also believed that the earth was flat. Science has obviously proved that this is not the case.

The bible asserts that illness is caused by the devil and other evil spirits when science has proven that illness are caused by viruses, bacteria and lifestyle choices.
The existence of DNA and genes which is the blueprint of life.
The existence of atoms and molecules and the chemistry interactions.
The existence of microscopic organisms including bacteria and viruses.

Evolution which continues today. Evolution is merely the evolving or changing by an organism to better adapt to its environment.
Proof of evolution is also evident in the variety in the animal and the plant kingdoms that has formed over hundreds of years.

The bible is a collection of stories written by man. It does contain some universal truths but that is it. It is not fact and it was not written by g-d. But by mere mortal men who were taking great liberty with what they were writing and dare I say making the whole thing up.

So when you wrote the bible labeled homosexuality as a sin I must respond to you that in fact, the bible is not fact.

 

[Ally T]

@missy Very well said. Things like this make my blood boil.

Personally, whilst I FULLY respect the wishes of those who choose to believe in God & in the Bible etc, I do not. I think it is complete boll@cks in order to keep people in line, written by men whom wanted a new way to govern & has been used to instill fear ever since. That doesn’t mean people should fall out with me, as this is just my belief & I expect that to be respected too. I believe in science & physics & all things that take us on a discovery. The Bible was written when people had a very small understanding of how the world, and Universe, works. It gives people great comfort to think there is a higher power looking after them with a kindly face. But if there was a God, and we are expected to take that at face value because we have no proof but the Bible told us so, why do those who believe in him choose to concede that other areas of the Bible are somewhat misinformed? You either believe it in its entirety, or you don’t. As science uncovers facts, people of religion concede that “that part” of the Bible is incorrect. But God is still real. Whaaaaat???

As my 9 year old recently asked me, “Mummy, if there is only one God, who supposedly created the Earth, then why do all these religions have their own God & what makes their God better than somebody else’s? Why do people start wars because others don’t believe in their God or think that their God is better?” Because, sweetheart, they can come up with things like this in Tanzania & the people will fear & tow the line.

"I prefer to anger those countries than to anger God." Yeah, this is definitely how wars start, sweetheart....

Please don’t hate me. I ALWAYS avoid topics of religion as i find my blood pressure more stable if i back off, but I had to chime in on this one.

 

[perry]

Ladies: I find it difficult to need to point out that I never claimed the bible to be factual.

This post is about a country leader who is imposing their own religious belief on his country. I did point out that at least his religous document does provide direct support for his base position (not necessarily for his solution). That is a fact. The bible does in fact say that (every translation I have ever seen).

I then point out that the bible was generally written for what was culturally important at the time, and I did not believe parts of it applied to our current culture.

I then contrasted that leaders position (with actual biblical statements about his belief) with the current situation - at least in America - where a number of political leaders feel they need to impose their religious belief on people - and that those beliefs have no actual biblical support (and in fact oposite statements are clearly in the bible).

As far as what is the bible and how it relates to various items listed above as items to be considered.

Fact: The Bible discusses that the earth is round. There are no references at all to any flat earth.
A related fact is that the maritime navigation instruments used - up to at least 5000 years ago are based on a round earth. Columbus knew the earth was round (and his navigation instruments were for a round earth); he just miscalculated the diameter. I really don't know the source of the flat earth history.

Fact: The Bible tells us that we should investigate and learn how the world and universe works to better understand things. This is why so many scientist in the world are Jewish and Muslim. Their "god" has told them to lean about the world and how it works to better the world. Now who has been behind the discovery of most of those things you list...

As I see it there really are no major scientific advancements that create discrepancies with the Bible (and I spent 18 months studying it - and all the issues I could identify).

The Bible is a reasonably accurate history text of that area of the world for a certain period of time once past the creation stories. As with all such references dates and locations can be mixed up.

It also does contain some basic social rules for a successful society and life. Interestingly, remove what/who and how you worship from what is known as the 10 commandments and you will find the same concepts if all other major religions of the world.

Biblical scholars will tell you that there are known cases of missing text (which have been covered up in many modern translations); and that the meanings of many things can be debated, or are unknown.

I too tend to avoid discussing specific religious belief because very few people have really studied the bible like I have and are not open to discussing the known issues and considering that certain sections may have other meanings. In fact, many will not even consider that other sections of the bible that has direct statements on an issue may apply.

I'm off to vote now...

Have a great day,

 

[telephone89]

Can we not get threads shut down due to religion chatter?

 

[TooPatient]

Can we not get threads shut down due to religion chatter?

Probably, but I would like to see more respectful doscussions on topics like this. The world would, in my opinion, be better if respectful discussions of this sort took place. Recognizing that various religions have texts that say certain things while addressing the context of history and other issues opens the door to people being open to discuss (positive) changes in the world while still maintaining the religion (or lack of) of their choice.

 

[missy]

Probably, but I would like to see more respectful doscussions on topics like this. The world would, in my opinion, be better if respectful discussions of this sort took place. Recognizing that various religions have texts that say certain things while addressing the context of history and other issues opens the door to people being open to discuss (positive) changes in the world while still maintaining the religion (or lack of) of their choice.

Exactly. If we just bury our heads in the sand we are part of the problem.

 

[telephone89]

Probably, but I would like to see more respectful doscussions on topics like this. The world would, in my opinion, be better if respectful discussions of this sort took place. Recognizing that various religions have texts that say certain things while addressing the context of history and other issues opens the door to people being open to discuss (positive) changes in the world while still maintaining the religion (or lack of) of their choice.

I don't think derailing a thread to talk about the bible is really relevant, AND goes against TOU. So, yeah.

 

[missy]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/05/africa/tanzania-crackdown-on-gays-intl/index.html

 

[OoohShiny]

I don't think derailing a thread to talk about the bible is really relevant, AND goes against TOU. So, yeah.

I am going to be contrary because I think it is relevant here - the position of Tanzania appears to be the use of religious texts in a literal sense with no appreciation of the change in world culture and knowledge, or consideration of what purpose they may have originally been written for, as has been discussed within the posts in question, so discussion about the bible and whether or not it is an accurate factual document and supports the position of Tanzania, or whether it is a pile of old bunkum that contradicts everything we know now, seems fair to me!

FWIW, I think everyone has been very balanced, reasoned, and not made things 'personal', which is the best sort of discussion IMO

 

[perry]

I don't think derailing a thread to talk about the bible is really relevant, AND goes against TOU. So, yeah.

As I see it; the entire basis of this thread is based on the Old Testament. A Government Official is enforcing his personal religious views based on a verse in the Old Testament applicable to his personal religion; that by modern standards (and perhaps even ancient ones too based on his approach to the issue) is re-pungent.

So, in this case... this thread is about religion per the OP and the linked article.

Note that I also posted that I feel that it is unfair to punish the gemstone minors and processors based on this person's actions.

I wish you all the best,

I see OoohShiny posted essentially the same concept while I was writing my response.

 

[telephone89]

As I see it; the entire basis of this thread is based on the Old Testament. A Government Official is enforcing his personal religious views based on a verse in the Old Testament applicable to his personal religion; that by modern standards (and perhaps even ancient ones too based on his approach to the issue) is re-pungent.

So, in this case... this thread is about religion per the OP and the linked article.

Note that I also posted that I feel that it is unfair to punish the gemstone minors and processors based on this person's actions.

I wish you all the best,

I see OoohShiny posted essentially the same concept while I was writing my response.

Proof?
Half of Tanzania is muslim. The single and only reference to religion in this article is not "angering god". Bringing the bible into this is incredibly self serving, and, again, is not relevant to the overall thread.

 

[perry]

Proof?
Half of Tanzania is muslim. The single and only reference to religion in this article is not "angering god". Bringing the bible into this is incredibly self serving, and, again, is not relevant to the overall thread.

Hmmm... Where did I say this was a Muslim issue? My apologies if I did.

A 2014 survey (reported in Wiki) reports 61% Christian, 35% Muslim, and the rest "other"

That means that the biblical old testament applies to about 96% of the population.

As for other evidence... May I suggest that you read other new articles about Tanzania and where the basis of their national laws on homosexuality (and some other things) derive from.

Have a great day,

 

[telephone89]

Hmmm... Where did I say this was a Muslim issue? My apologies if I did.

A 2014 survey (reported in Wiki) reports 61% Christian, 35% Muslim, and the rest "other"

That means that the biblical old testament applies to about 96% of the population.

As for other evidence... May I suggest that you read other new articles about Tanzania and where the basis of their national laws on homosexuality (and some other things) derive from.

Have a great day,

I didn't say you said it was a muslim issue. But the bible and the old testament do not have anything to do with their Muslim or "other" populations. And really? Wikipedia? Obviously the best known source of any information lol.
Anyways, I'm done. Continue droning on about your bible.

 

[Ella]

Folks, keep the bible and religious texts conversations out of it, if this gets into a tit for tat argument about religion and what is "right" it will be removed.

 

[Arcadian]

then should we be buying ANY stone from ANY country considering? Tanzania isn 't the only country that has laws against homosexuality or have grave human rights atrocicites but a lot of Asian and African countries do to as does ME countries. If you want to get technical at the Americas too.

IMO no natural stone on earth comes without the blood of others on it.

My take on it is this. I'll buy what I will buy. I happen to like real gemstones though they come with their own controversies. But for those who must, buy the lab stuff. Its probably easier to just do that and keep your conscious clean.

 

[missy]

then should we be buying ANY stone from ANY country considering? Tanzania isn 't the only country that has laws against homosexuality or have grave human rights atrocicites but a lot of Asian and African countries do to as does ME countries. If you want to get technical at the Americas too.

IMO no natural stone on earth comes without the blood of others on it.

My take on it is this. I'll buy what I will buy. I happen to like real gemstones though they come with their own controversies. But for those who must, buy the lab stuff. Its probably easier to just do that and keep your conscious clean.

Yes very true. My take on this is we all do what makes sense for us and what we can find peace in doing. For example I love animals but I still eat fish and wear leather. So not very animal kind is that? But I do what I can and rationalize that I am generally buying vintage leather and not new leather goods etc. And I eat fish simply because I can no longer be vegan (my preference and I was vegan for well over 20 years) due to health reasons. My point is we do what we can and what makes sense for us.

However there is absolutely no reason not to bring this to light about Tanzania (thanks @VapidLapid) and their "new" policies. It is horrific and just because tragic occurrences like this are happening all over the world doesn't mean we should ignore it or not act if it is within our power/ability to do something.

 

[Arcadian]

@missy, I can totally agree that this should be a speaking point and I would never say ignore this.

As I've said before, I believe that all gemstones are tied to blood.

Many places in Africa are quite troubled. In fact, killing an albino child to get their body parts for witch doctors happens in many areas of the continent. Its particularly discusting practice, and I'm sure the shiny sparkly bits of rock get traded for these body parts sometimes too. I wouldn't doubt it in fact.

Do we say "never buy from there again because of that?" Or, is the stone now tainted and undesireable? Consider what happened in Campbell Bridges in Kenya. Killed over Tsvarorites, which might even have been racially motivated. And whats going on in Myanmar is continual and ongoing. Is one worse than the other are is it equally bad? Bad enough to never buy from those places again?

For those who say Yes, lab gems have become a very viable solution. They're not for me, but IMO viable and thankfully we have a place to discuss them.

But I thin the misnomer is that now Tanzania is bad. No, Tanzania has ALWAYS been bad for LGBT. Add in most African countries though!

I say what I say not because I'm insensitive but think about where we are; We all talk all things gemstones and diamonds and how much we enjoy them, love them, look up stuff about them. Literally unavoidable to not know the history of many of these stones unless you just have blinders on.

The reality is this; for now, in many African countries, LGBT rights are nil to almost nil . Change IS happening but its very very slow.