Shallower Crown - .9 HCA

[Lindsay Loo]

Hi All,

This is my first time posting and mostly doing it for peace of mind. I am on my 3rd stone (2 exchanges already). The issue I had with my first two was clarity. Cut was my #1 priority (went in dead set on GIA XXX). I found I was just too sensitive to inclusions in SI1's and VS2's which surprised me (clouds, UGH). I am now in a GIA XXX .9CT F/VS1 (complete specs below). I am working with a local jeweler who has a great exchange policy and my whole family has purchased there for years so I would prefer to stick with them.

For the first week, I was extremely happy with this diamond. I love that it no longer has the warmth I noticed in H/G stones and the feather was set under a prong.

While my last two scored jut over 3's on the HCA tool, this new one scores a .9!!!!!

However, I have concerns with the shallower than ideal crown angles and am wondering if this is not ideal for my engagement ring.

GIA 2326627930
RB
6.21x6.23x3.93
.90CT
F
VS1
Cut: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Flour: Faint
Clarity Characteristics: Feather

Table: 54%
Crown Angle: 32.5
Pavillion Angle: 40.8
Crown Height: 15%
Total Depth: 61.5%
Slightly Thick Faceted 3.5%
Cutlet: None

I think this falls within Tolkowsky ranges, correct? I know it's not a shallow stone, just the crown angles are shallower than ideal. So this tends to lead to favor brightness, correct?

I think the problem I am having is getting over the head obstruction. When I lean over to look at it, I can see the arrows almost perfectly with some obstruction around arrows (not terrible). I do have dark brown hair but fairly pale skin. Otherwise, boy is this thing bright and despite it falling below a 1, HCA still shows excellent for Fire and Scintillation and I swear it lights up with rainbows way more than the past two in sun.

I think I'm just second guessing myself on whether or not others will think it looks dark. Thoughts?

 

[AV_]

Ideal might not be your ideal. Can you get to see one?

 

[Ss52]

Lindsay Loo, that diamond falls outside the AGS and the more lax GIA ideal measurements. Go to diamondscreener.com and put in the table %, the crown and pavilion angles to see how a stone rates.

You can definitely do better. Here’s a diamond that’s in ideal range in your specs. Is there a price you’re looking for?

https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/0.90-ct-E-VS1-Affinity-Cut-Round-Diamond/D43310233

 

[Lindsay Loo]

If it falls outside of GIA's lax ideal measurements, why did they rate it an excellent cut?

 

[lovedogs]

If it falls outside of GIA's lax ideal measurements, why did they rate it an excellent cut?

Because GIA XXX is very liberal and doesn't actually guarantee a top performing stone.

 

[bmfang]

You’ve likely got a stone that is on the edge of “Brilliant Ideal Cut” and “Tolkowsky Ideal Cut” proportions. The cut off between BIC and TIC according to @Garry H (Cut Nut) is at the 32.5 degree crown angle. There is an inverse relationship between crown and pavilion angles. Your current stone is likely to have a 32.7 degree crown angle combined with a 40.8-40.9 degree pavilion angle (GIA rounds angles on their reports).

Tolkowsky’s original proportion set for stones did not include a girdle. Even now, there is a range of what is considered to be ideal cut proportions.

Unless GIA aren’t following their proportions system anymore, the 2009 GIA PGS for a 54% table indicates that this stone (32.5 CA/40.8 PA) is only GIA Very Good rather than GIA Excellent for cut. which makes the statement that it is GIA Excellent for cut on the report a little puzzling unless they are starting to grade stones on some degree of light performance now. Or that they are using Facetware to determine the cut grade. Verify this for yourself using this GIA article that contains the PGS:
https://www.diamondscreener.com/wp-...ence/booklet_cut_estimation_tables_lowres.pdf

AGS proportions system only rates this as AGS1 (Excellent) too.

@Karl_K, @John Pollard : Do either of you know whether GIA updated their proportions grading system recently?

 

[Lindsay Loo]

Thank you, very helpful. I saw that chart as well and was curious as to why GIA still rated it this way. I'm afraid to show my face at the jewelers again but may just have to. On the other hand, I feel I am just being too picky. I don't have to have an ideal and I do like this diamond I think I am just too worried about what others would think.

 

[John P]

@Karl_K, @John Pollard : Do either of you know whether GIA updated their proportions grading system recently?

It's not an update, it's an outlier: GIA's charts presumes 50/80 minor facet averages. Different star and lower-half lengths can result in penalties or (in this case) rewards.

Given the carousel of observational-basis + rounding + departure from main cutter/anti-cutter lines, I tend to analyze these outliers on a case by case basis. It's around 50-50 as to whether I find justification. Since I'm about to miss a dinner date with my S.O. so I'm not going to dig into it more tonight - but here is your answer, in any case @bmfang

Default per charts



This case (outlier)


Hope it's helpful.

 

[Lindsay Loo]

Thank you all. Can someone help recommend a better stone with similar specs? At this point, due to my frustration with what my jeweler has had to offer, I may just be willing to return and purchase online I'm just worried about clarity with how sensitive I have been to Si1's and VS2's so far and not being able to view it in person. Max budget for the diamond is around 5200 USD.

Most GIA XXX they have show me so far have hovered around 3-3.5 on HCA :/

 

[kmoro]

Also a testament to GIA rounding .... how can a PA 40.8 with CA 32.5 can get a crown percentage of 15%? Rounding only. Who knows how this diamond can really be predicted to perform? The OP needs to get an ASET scope to evaluate performance, imo.

 

[bmfang]

It's not an update, it's an outlier: GIA's charts presumes 50/80 minor facet averages. Different star and lower-half lengths can result in penalties or (in this case) rewards.

Given the carousel of observational-basis + rounding + departure from main cutter/anti-cutter lines, I tend to analyze these outliers on a case by case basis. It's around 50-50 as to whether I find justification. Since I'm about to miss a dinner date with my S.O. so I'm not going to dig into it more tonight - but here is your answer, in any case @bmfang

Default per charts



This case (outlier)


Hope it's helpful.

Always learn from whatever you take the time out to post on @John Pollard . Thanks

Was hoping to confirm with GIA Facetware on my iPhone but iOS 12 doesn’t allow the app they have available on the website to run anymore (and I don’t feel like jailbreaking my iPhone to do so).

 

[bmfang]

Also a testament to GIA rounding .... how can a PA 40.8 with CA 32.5 can get a crown percentage of 15%? Rounding only. Who knows how this diamond can really be predicted to perform? The OP needs to get an ASET scope to evaluate performance, imo.

This is precisely why I love using gm89uk’s cut stats analyser.

ASET trumps stats though.

 

[Lindsay Loo]

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-6900407

I may just pull the trigger on this.

 

[bmfang]

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-6900407

I may just pull the trigger on this.

Fat arrows which I like (so I’m already guessing the LGF percentage is 74-76). H&A’s aren’t as consistent as the main super ideal vendors but it’s not too shabby for a True Hearts stone. Price is reasonable too.

I don’t know if the stone is a little dirty on the table but it looks a little hazy to me in the video.

Some other stones for consideration:
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/.../0.826-g-vs1-round-diamond-ags-c-104105166009
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/.../0.831-g-vs2-round-diamond-ags-c-104105166046

Not finding anything comparable at Whiteflash or HPD for around the 5k mark or under. Same also for Blue Nile’s Astor range.

 

[lovedogs]

Thank you all. Can someone help recommend a better stone with similar specs? At this point, due to my frustration with what my jeweler has had to offer, I may just be willing to return and purchase online I'm just worried about clarity with how sensitive I have been to Si1's and VS2's so far and not being able to view it in person. Max budget for the diamond is around 5200 USD.

Most GIA XXX they have show me so far have hovered around 3-3.5 on HCA :/

To be honest I am really surprised that you could see any flaws in a VS2 stone at under 1ct. I feel like they were just bringing you crappy stones, because 99.9% of the time a solid VS2 under a carat is going to be eye clean. Maybe if you saw some that *barely* got the VS2 grade, or if the stone had something dark. But eye clean VS2 from one of the super ideal vendors like WF, BGD, HPD will be eye clean.

And yes, I would buy online. Clearly this jeweler doesn't exactly know what they are doing in terms of getting ideal cuts, so I would just buy online at this point.

The ones recommeded by @bmfang are gorgeous.

 

[Lindsay Loo]

What about https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-6900602 less hazy in the table than the last. worried about dropping to an H though

 

[bmfang]

What about https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-6900602 less hazy in the table than the last. worried about dropping to an H though

Better than the last JA stone. Still not as precise on H&A to my eyes though. If one is paying for optical symmetry, one would want there to be optical symmetry.

I’m curious to see the plot on it compared with the 0.831 G VS2 I posted above from BGD. The plot for the 0.831 VS2 looks like this:


Unless you have super sharp eyesight looking from a foot away, it would be very difficult to notice the feathers and the three tiny crystals under the table.

OP, any reason that you are looking at JA more than other vendors? Is it just budget related?

 

[Lindsay Loo]

Prefer to do setting and diamond through the same place and not loving BGD ones. Will inquire tomorrow with my jeweler what it will cost to mount in my current setting.

 

[lovedogs]

Prefer to do setting and diamond through the same place and not loving BGD ones. Will inquire tomorrow with my jeweler what it will cost to mount in my current setting.

Just FYI bgd settings will be significantly better quality and better finished than JA.

 

[bmfang]

Prefer to do setting and diamond through the same place and not loving BGD ones. Will inquire tomorrow with my jeweler what it will cost to mount in my current setting.

Ah ok. Gotcha. Understand why you’d want to do that.

BGD also does do custom work as well if you don’t particularly like the designs on offer and have something else in mind. Your idea about getting your current jeweller to set any loose stone is also a good idea.

 

[TreeScientist]

Just FYI bgd settings will be significantly better quality and better finished than JA.

I wouldn't say that. There's been several reports of rather lackluster QA from the BGD bench, and also poor customer service. Not that JA is any better, but I wouldn't put either in the top echelon of attention to detail and customer satisfaction when it comes to settings.

I like the idea of seeing if your local jeweler would be willing to set a loose stone. Most will charge around $100 for setting a loose stone not purchased from them, but if you like the jeweler, trust their bench, and have a good relationship with them already, it may be worth sticking with them for the setting. That also frees you up to choose the best diamond with the best price from any of the online vendors.

 

[TreeScientist]

What about https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-6900602 less hazy in the table than the last. worried about dropping to an H though

How color sensitive are you? Have you seen an H in person in normal lighting (not jewelry store lighting)? If you like high color diamonds, which I'm assuming you do because your first choice was an F, then I wouldn't recommend dropping to an H, especially an AGS H. But if you're not all that color sensitive and just chose the F because that's what was available, then it would probably be okay.

I like the .831 G/VS2 from BGD posted by @bmfang. Unless you have eagle eyes, you're never going to be able to see the tiny feathers and crystals in that stone. And the price is fairly reasonably with the 10% off code on the signature diamonds that they're running right now.

But if you really need to be "mind clean" about the clarity (meaning you'll be constantly "seeing things" in a VS2 whether you're actually seeing an inclusion or just a spec of dust), then this stone may be a good option. In an under 1 carat VVS2, if you see anything at all, you can rest assured that it's completely all in your head.

Cheaper here:
https://www.withclarity.com/diamond/1333979576

With ASET and video here:
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-0.82-carat-e-vvs2-yd6909579

 

[bmfang]

How color sensitive are you? Have you seen an H in person in normal lighting (not jewelry store lighting)? If you like high color diamonds, which I'm assuming you do because your first choice was an F, then I wouldn't recommend dropping to an H, especially an AGS H. But if you're not all that color sensitive and just chose the F because that's what was available, then it would probably be okay.

I like the .831 G/VS2 from BGD posted by @bmfang. Unless you have eagle eyes, you're never going to be able to see the tiny feathers and crystals in that stone. And the price is fairly reasonably with the 10% off code on the signature diamonds that they're running right now.

But if you really need to be "mind clean" about the clarity (meaning you'll be constantly "seeing things" in a VS2 whether you're actually seeing an inclusion or just a spec of dust), then this stone may be a good option. In an under 1 carat VVS2, if you see anything at all, you can rest assured that it's completely all in your head.

Cheaper here:
https://www.withclarity.com/diamond/1333979576

With ASET and video here:
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-0.82-carat-e-vvs2-yd6909579

Definitely will be mind clean, but that ASET has me a little worried. This one looks like another outlier.

CA likely to be 35.3-35.4 coupled with 40.6-40.7 (results in HCA 1.8 however only fire scores excellent with others being very good).

 

[OoohShiny]

Awesome info in this thread - I love how Sir Pollard still manages to be ultra-geek while walking out the door

Thanks for bringing a good learning example to the table, @Lindsay Loo!

 

[Lindsay Loo]

Leaning towards the BGD. I had a G before and didn’t mind the color. My fear with clouds is it made my last VS2 hazy in some light or speckled but it was also directly in the table. I think this one would be okay. Will be visiting my jeweler later today to figure this out. Really appreciate all the responses. Feel like im at least going in the right direction now.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Some other stones for consideration:
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/.../0.826-g-vs1-round-diamond-ags-c-104105166009

This one is a no brainer for me .... This set of proportions don't grow on trees.

 

[Lindsay Loo]

Would you chose that over the vs2?

 

[TreeScientist]

Would you chose that over the vs2?

I wouldn't. If we're going to nit-pick the cut, the VS2 is better. Plus the VS1 has surface graining and clouds not shown. Often surface graining is totally innocuous, but sometimes it can make the diamond look hazy, particularly when the diamond gets dirty (as it inevitably will). As a rule, if given two diamonds that are equally well cut, one with surface and/or internal graining and one without, I would always choose the one without graining. Of course this is IMO, but if you're worried about haziness or cloudiness, then the VS2 would likely be the better choice from both an actual eye clean perspective, and also a mind-clean perspective (because it doesn't have graining or clouds not shown).

 

[Lindsay Loo]

I wouldn't. If we're going to nit-pick the cut, the VS2 is better. Plus the VS1 has surface graining and clouds not shown. Often surface graining is totally innocuous, but sometimes it can make the diamond look hazy, particularly when the diamond gets dirty (as it inevitably will). As a rule, if given two diamonds that are equally well cut, one with surface and/or internal graining and one without, I would always choose the one without graining. Of course this is IMO, but if you're worried about haziness or cloudiness, then the VS2 would likely be the better choice from both an actual eye clean perspective, and also a mind-clean perspective (because it doesn't have graining or clouds not shown).

Thanks for the input.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Would you chose that over the vs2?

The G VS2 is a beautiful stone... All BGD stones are well cut. My wife's 3 stone pendant is from BGD and my DD#2's Ering is from BGD. They are all beautiful stones.