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Shallow princess cut depths, need info

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KJW

Rough_Rock
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I have seen a tremendous amount of talk concerning overly deep princess cuts, but very little info on shallow cuts and what this does to the look and overall appearance of the diamond. I am looking at a 3.09 cut, F in color with a depth of 58.8 percent and a table of 70. 8.43 x 8.38. From what I have been reading so far about depth and table this does''nt sound like a great cut, and gia says it is only a good cut. This diamond looks very large for its actual weight and is extremely sparkly and brillant to the eye. When comparing to other diamonds it sort of lacks the star as I call it and its center looks more like a round brilliant with lots of extra facets, more busy inside, although the dealer says it has the same amount of facets as some of the others. Is this because of the depth? What causes this look? Its pretty, but really different. $30,000 dollars is alot of money to me and I dont want to do anything stupid. This is a SI1. I want a fairly large diamond and was willing to compensate for the money in clarity and polish. But I am really concerned about this cut, and if it is a bad cut what is it really worth?
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
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15,177
It probably has thin to very thin parts on the girdle and one day will be repolished to 2ct - so get expert help, or learn a lot fast.

It can be nice - it is a very large spread - but it can not be a stella stone (I think).

I would try to compare it to other stones - and if you can - get some of the stuff you put posters on walls with and push the pavilion into it - we call it Blu Tac in Australia. It shows you how the stone will look when you wear it (dirt)

Ultimately you need to pay an appraiser or give me money and buy an ASET scope from the ideal-scope site below.
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
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The whole concept of depth in a princess-cut is a very sad story. In the Pricescope-Journal, I have written some articles about it, and I have regularly commented on it on the forum.

To cut it short, it is a total misconception of the public AND of the trade that depth is directly related to spread in a princess-cut. It is not.

What is more, the trade has wrongly tried in the past decades to match the depth-% of a princess to that of a round. The depth-% of a round is a percentage of the average diameter of the stone. The depth-% of a princess is a percentage of the smallest diameter of the stone. These are two very different figures.

However, still now, the trade is full of this mis-conception, and naturally, this trickles through to the consumers. From the new AGS-cut-grading, we know that the most performing princess-cuts have depths in the mid-70''s. However, just the other day, I overheard two important diamond-traders saying that there is a high demand in the market for princess-cuts, provided their depth is lower than 65%, and a 1 Ct-stone measures 5.4x5.4. So, the trade itself (at least 95% of it) does not realise that a truly beautiful AGS-0 would measure 5.4x5.4, but would have a depth of around 75%.

This is the general story. Now about your specific stone.

You do have a great spread on that stone, but that depth-% is frightening to me. Compared to the average diameter, this compares to a depth of around 45% to 50% in a round. And then, I have to join Garry''s conclusion that it cannot be a stellar stone.

Live long,
 

KJW

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2007
Messages
5
Thanks so much for the reply. My jewelers answer to all of this is that sometimes when you know to much you miss out on a really beautiful diamond. And if I am interested in getting a better cut (depth) its going to drive the price up even further. I am way at my limit now. I get the picture no one here on these blogs likes to talk money. I am not asking for specfics, only can I do better for 30,000 grand or not. I need (ha ha) at least a 3.0 something thats pretty white.
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
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I have seen some amazing "spready" princess cuts..., it all depends on its looks (a picture of your stone would help).

I am not a believer of Ideal fancy shapes... (as AGS are categorizing them)... but its a great selling/marketing tool!!!

The 75%+/- total depth considered excelent or Ideal on princess cut are a "blessing" for Princess cut manufacturers!!!! They are able to get incredible yields from the correct rough!!! And then profits soar!!!

I would not give up on this spready 3 carat so fast, i wish you have an opportunity to compare them to other 3 carat stones, you might have a great stone in hand!!!

I dont think that fancy cuts can be favored or rejected based on numbers only, and it is unfair to suggest rejecting it based on numbers!!!

Good luck,
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
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Date: 2/9/2007 9:47:18 AM
Author: DiaGem
I have seen some amazing ''spready'' princess cuts..., it all depends on its looks (a picture of your stone would help).

I am not a believer of Ideal fancy shapes... (as AGS are categorizing them)... but its a great selling/marketing tool!!!
That is your prerogative. No problem with that.


Date: 2/9/2007 9:47:18 AM
Author: DiaGem
The 75%+/- total depth considered excelent or Ideal on princess cut are a ''blessing'' for Princess cut manufacturers!!!! They are able to get incredible yields from the correct rough!!! And then profits soar!!!
Forgive me for being blunt, but here, you do not know what you are talking about.


There is no necessary connection between depth and spread in a princess-cut.
As such, more depth does not imply more yield from rough.
In reality, with all the requirements of obtaining a high cut-grade from AGS, yields are much lower. Looking at my own goods, we could easily produce princess-cuts with lower depths from the same rough, and maintain weights of up to 20% higher.

May I ask you to refrain from telling such blatant untruths in the future. It does not become you.

Live long,
 

KJW

Rough_Rock
Joined
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This diamond is beautiful but different looking. Has alot of spark. I compared this diamond to a an H colored 3.24, 8.23 x 8.19 with a depth of 69 and a table of 74. Not only was this diamond alot smaller looking, it looked dead, lacked sparkle, unless you took it out in the sunlight. It also looked plainer inside, like not as many cuts or something. I was amazed at the difference. Big difference in price too. He is justifying it by color H verses F. I like the diamond, but the depth and visual difference going on inside is so extreme and rare apparently, that I thought i should get some other advice before spending the "extra money".
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
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Date: 2/9/2007 10:16:35 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 2/9/2007 9:47:18 AM
Author: DiaGem
I have seen some amazing ''spready'' princess cuts..., it all depends on its looks (a picture of your stone would help).

I am not a believer of Ideal fancy shapes... (as AGS are categorizing them)... but its a great selling/marketing tool!!!
That is your prerogative. No problem with that.



Date: 2/9/2007 9:47:18 AM
Author: DiaGem
The 75%+/- total depth considered excelent or Ideal on princess cut are a ''blessing'' for Princess cut manufacturers!!!! They are able to get incredible yields from the correct rough!!! And then profits soar!!!
Forgive me for being blunt, but here, you do not know what you are talking about.


There is no necessary connection between depth and spread in a princess-cut. i agree, that is why a super spread princess can still be a super stone.
As such, more depth does not imply more yield from rough. mathematically it does!
In reality, with all the requirements of obtaining a high cut-grade from AGS, yields are much lower. Looking at my own goods, we could easily produce princess-cuts with lower depths from the same rough, and maintain weights of up to 20% higher. i agree, since you dont have the luxury to use extra facets to cover up the naturals left in the four corner area''s of the stones.

May I ask you to refrain from telling such blatant untruths in the future. It does not become you. Paul!! It was not aimed towards you personally (so dont take it personally)!!! But i am entitled to my OWN professional opinion. And as someone who gives advice on this forum WITH NO FINANCIAL INTERESTS whatsoever, I am still entitled to say out my opinion even if you dont agree!!!

When it comes to fancy shaped diamonds, i dont agree with the fact of Ideal categorizing!!!!



Live long,
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
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Date: 2/9/2007 10:20:05 AM
Author: KJW
This diamond is beautiful but different looking. Has alot of spark. I compared this diamond to a an H colored 3.24, 8.23 x 8.19 with a depth of 69 and a table of 74. Not only was this diamond alot smaller looking, it looked dead, lacked sparkle, unless you took it out in the sunlight. It also looked plainer inside, like not as many cuts or something. I was amazed at the difference. Big difference in price too. He is justifying it by color H verses F. I like the diamond, but the depth and visual difference going on inside is so extreme and rare apparently, that I thought i should get some other advice before spending the ''extra money''.
Like i said..., it could be a gorgeous stone!
Can you get a picture and post it here?
 

KJW

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2007
Messages
5
If the chart on ASG shows a 58 to 80 percent depth as a Class 2B International fine trade cut, if I am reading it right, then why is 58.8 % so frightening? I realize it is on the lower end of fine. But doesnt fine mean fine or does this depth really mean "Bad or Average". This jeweler says noone is going to know how deep or shallow this diamond is. So what is the greatest disadvantage to me for this depth? Other than the possible thin girdle.
 

RADIANTMAN

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 3, 2005
Messages
191
KJW - if the diamond looks beautiful to you, buy it. It''s a good idea to look at it in various light conditions, and to dirty it up a little with fingerprints, to make sure it''s beauty holds up in realistic conditions, but, ultimately, let your eyes be the judge.

Nobody who hasn''t seen the diamond is qualified to render a meaningful opinion. If, for example, the bottom of the diamond is faceted more like a radiant than a traditional princess, the brilliance will be more like that of a radiant and a 59% depth on a square can be just fine. Since nobody here knows what facet arrangement was used, their "expert" opinions are nothing more than guesses based on assumptions that may or not be correct.

A diamond which is both lively and big looking is, to many people, more "ideal" than AGS "ideals," which often look small. I personally prefer a 1.00 princess with depth and table around 70 that measures 5.5-5.6 mm to the AGS 5.4 mm "ideals." Is my preference wrong because Paul and the AGS say so? Are they wrong because they prefer a different configuration than I do? I don''t think so.

Don''t let the advice on this forum, well meaning though it is, make you crazy. Trust your eyes and, if you like the diamond, buy it.
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
2,852
Excuse me, Diagem, but I DO take this personal.

May I take your quote and highlight some points:


Date: 2/9/2007 9:47:18 AM
Author: DiaGem
I have seen some amazing ''spready'' princess cuts..., it all depends on its looks (a picture of your stone would help).

I am not a believer of Ideal fancy shapes... (as AGS are categorizing them)... but its a great selling/marketing tool!!!

The 75%+/- total depth considered excelent or Ideal on princess cut are a ''blessing'' for Princess cut manufacturers!!!! They are able to get incredible yields from the correct rough!!! And then profits soar!!!

I would not give up on this spready 3 carat so fast, i wish you have an opportunity to compare them to other 3 carat stones, you might have a great stone in hand!!!

I dont think that fancy cuts can be favored or rejected based on numbers only, and it is unfair to suggest rejecting it based on numbers!!!

Good luck,
Not only are you implying that the AGS cut-grading system is only a selling/marketing tool. Which might be a personal opinion, to which you are definitely entitled.

But you are claiming that they are a ''blessing'' for us, as we get incredible yields, which is a blatant untruth.

And with hardly any princess-cut manufacturers cutting according to AGS-guidelines, and with me being known on this forum as the first to cut according to these strict standards, you are accusing me personally, not only of using the exchange of information on this forum for personal gain, but even for EXCESSIVE personal gain, if you mention that ''profits soar!!!'' (The exclamation marks are yours, not mine).

The truth is that it does NOT get you incredible yields, and that there is no case of ''soaring'' profits. There is only a case of ''souring'' communication here, and that is very unfortunate.

Live long,
 

elmo

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 18, 2003
Messages
1,160
Has anyone seen "Iron Chef"?

I''m imagining a big bowl of rough that Paul and DiaGem frantically pick from at the beginning of the show, where they have 60 minutes to each craft the most beautiful princess-cuts, which are finally scrutinized by a panel of Pricescopers and beautiful movie stars.

 

KJW

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2007
Messages
5
I find these differences of opinion very interesting and educational, oh, and quite entertaining.
(Sorry it''s the devil in me.)
 

aquarius_ser

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
269
I have a shallow princess! It is absolutely gorgeous (to me, I''m not a professional, BTW).... I don''t have the GIA report with me (I''m at work) but it''s 60% depth, 75% table, 1.5 carat, F, VS2 and the dimensions were 6.57 x 6.5 - I THINK, girdle is med - slightly thick. It just sparkles beyond belief. (It kind of looks like crushed ice to me)

Anyway, enough with the specs! I fell in LOVE with this diamond. My FH and I had atleast 10 of these princess'' laid out before us and we looked at them for HOURS and several times. I know EXACTLY what you mean when you describe the facets (or whatever) they are called. I''ve had remarks to me that it sparkles like a round.

I say screw the specs and buy what you fall in love with!
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
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Date: 2/9/2007 1:52:28 PM
Author: aquarius_ser
I have a shallow princess! It is absolutely gorgeous (to me, I''m not a professional, BTW).... I don''t have the GIA report with me (I''m at work) but it''s 60% depth, 75% table, 1.5 carat, F, VS2 and the dimensions were 6.57 x 6.5 - I THINK, girdle is med - slightly thick. It just sparkles beyond belief. (It kind of looks like crushed ice to me)

Anyway, enough with the specs! I fell in LOVE with this diamond. My FH and I had atleast 10 of these princess'' laid out before us and we looked at them for HOURS and several times. I know EXACTLY what you mean when you describe the facets (or whatever) they are called. I''ve had remarks to me that it sparkles like a round.

I say screw the specs and buy what you fall in love with!
Like I said before..., I have seen some gorgeous spready princeses, and when you find and compare different Diamonds... trust your eyes... they are the best judge to your taste!!!
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
4,930
Date: 2/9/2007 12:59:41 PM
Author: elmo
Has anyone seen ''Iron Chef''?

I''m imagining a big bowl of rough that Paul and DiaGem frantically pick from at the beginning of the show, where they have 60 minutes to each craft the most beautiful princess-cuts, which are finally scrutinized by a panel of Pricescopers and beautiful movie stars.

Hey Elmo thats a good and fun one...., but sorry...., princess''s just don''t do it to me!!!
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
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Date: 2/9/2007 12:32:56 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Excuse me, Diagem, but I DO take this personal.

May I take your quote and highlight some points:



Date: 2/9/2007 9:47:18 AM
Author: DiaGem
I have seen some amazing ''spready'' princess cuts..., it all depends on its looks (a picture of your stone would help).

I am not a believer of Ideal fancy shapes... (as AGS are categorizing them)... but its a great selling/marketing tool!!!

The 75%+/- total depth considered excelent or Ideal on princess cut are a ''blessing'' for Princess cut manufacturers!!!! They are able to get incredible yields from the correct rough!!! And then profits soar!!!

I would not give up on this spready 3 carat so fast, i wish you have an opportunity to compare them to other 3 carat stones, you might have a great stone in hand!!!

I dont think that fancy cuts can be favored or rejected based on numbers only, and it is unfair to suggest rejecting it based on numbers!!!

Good luck,
Not only are you implying that the AGS cut-grading system is only a selling/marketing tool. Which might be a personal opinion, to which you are definitely entitled.

But you are claiming that they are a ''blessing'' for us, as we get incredible yields, which is a blatant untruth.

And with hardly any princess-cut manufacturers cutting according to AGS-guidelines, and with me being known on this forum as the first to cut according to these strict standards, you are accusing me personally, not only of using the exchange of information on this forum for personal gain, but even for EXCESSIVE personal gain, if you mention that ''profits soar!!!'' (The exclamation marks are yours, not mine).

The truth is that it does NOT get you incredible yields, and that there is no case of ''soaring'' profits. There is only a case of ''souring'' communication here, and that is very unfortunate.

Live long,
Diagem,

I must say that I had expected some kind of apology. Too bad, one more lost illusion.

Live long,
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
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Oct 21, 2004
Messages
4,930
Date: 2/15/2007 4:30:23 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 2/9/2007 12:32:56 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Excuse me, Diagem, but I DO take this personal.

May I take your quote and highlight some points:




Date: 2/9/2007 9:47:18 AM
Author: DiaGem
I have seen some amazing ''spready'' princess cuts..., it all depends on its looks (a picture of your stone would help).

I am not a believer of Ideal fancy shapes... (as AGS are categorizing them)... but its a great selling/marketing tool!!!

The 75%+/- total depth considered excelent or Ideal on princess cut are a ''blessing'' for Princess cut manufacturers!!!! They are able to get incredible yields from the correct rough!!! And then profits soar!!!

I would not give up on this spready 3 carat so fast, i wish you have an opportunity to compare them to other 3 carat stones, you might have a great stone in hand!!!

I dont think that fancy cuts can be favored or rejected based on numbers only, and it is unfair to suggest rejecting it based on numbers!!!

Good luck,
Not only are you implying that the AGS cut-grading system is only a selling/marketing tool. Which might be a personal opinion, to which you are definitely entitled. Never Never said "only"...

But you are claiming that they are a ''blessing'' for us, as we get incredible yields, which is a blatant untruth. Read carefully the above... It is not aimed at you personally. It is a fact that a princess cut Diamond is a high yielding shape (if used from the correct shaped rough, usualy sharp crystal octahedrons) compared to most other shapes. Mathematically the deeper the stone (based on one diameter size) the heavier it is. The heavier it weighs the more yield comes out of that specific rough Diamond. Therefor a Princess cut diamond of same diameter which has a total depth of 75% will weigh substantially more than the same Diamond with 60% total depth.

And with hardly any princess-cut manufacturers cutting according to AGS-guidelines, and with me being known on this forum as the first to cut according to these strict standards, you are accusing me personally, not only of using the exchange of information on this forum for personal gain, but even for EXCESSIVE personal gain, if you mention that ''profits soar!!!'' (The exclamation marks are yours, not mine). I truly applaud on your creativeness of being the first to tackle this niche market...(smart!!!), I dont think there is anything wrong with producing and marketing a rare product and earning money doing so...

The truth is that it does NOT get you incredible yields, and that there is no case of ''soaring'' profits. There is only a case of ''souring'' communication here, and that is very unfortunate. I am sorry you feel that way.

Live long,
Diagem,

I must say that I had expected some kind of apology. Too bad, one more lost illusion.

Live long,
A wise woman ones taught me a long time ago not to expect anything..., one of the better lesons I learned!!!!
Lets not make it personal..., I dont know you yet, but since this is a small Industry..., there might come a day we meet.
 
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