Selling old jewellery - Thank you to Dave Atlas Estates

[Phoenix]

I wanted to write and thank Steve Schiffman and Dave at Dave Atlas Estates for the wonderful experience I've had with them.

As some of you know, I've been selling off old pieces of jewellery in order to raise funds to finance my upgrades. Steve and Dave have been very wonderfully prompt, courteous and helpful in answering any and all of my queries. They gave me reasonable prices for the pieces and most of all cut me a cheque as soon as they received the items.

I'd previously contacted several other buyers, some of who are mentioned on this forum. They either offered me lower prices or just didn't return my emails or phone calls. To be fair, one was very helpful and helped me put the items on consignment but they simply didn't sell!

So if anyone of you are looking to sell your diamonds or diamond jewellery (and I think they buy watches too), would like to get ready cash, and are looking for great service, then I'd definitely recommend that you contact Steve and/ or Dave.

 

[Andelain]

Are you planning to sell that pear ring? I''d love to get my hands on that.

 

[Phoenix]

Date: 5/1/2010 9:11:22 AM
Author: Lone_Wolfe
Are you planning to sell that pear ring? I''d love to get my hands on that.

Sorry, not any time soon! But thanks though.

 

[MrsBettyBoop]

How can we find what you were selling?

 

[Phoenix]

Date: 5/1/2010 1:03:41 PM
Author: Sparkles&Glitter
How can we find what you were selling?

Most of them have already been sold or given to my relatives. There''s a thread of my bling on SMTB!

 

[zhuzhu]

Date: 5/1/2010 10:47:07 PM
Author: Phoenix

Date: 5/1/2010 1:03:41 PM

Author: Sparkles&Glitter

How can we find what you were selling?

Most of them have already been sold or given to my relatives. There''s a thread of my bling on SMTB!

I think she meant where can we find the ones Dave Atlas Estates is selling that were yours.

Nice toe rings!

 

[Phoenix]

Date: 5/2/2010 3:43:43 AM
Author: zhuzhu

Date: 5/1/2010 10:47:07 PM
Author: Phoenix

Date: 5/1/2010 1:03:41 PM

Author: Sparkles&Glitter

How can we find what you were selling?

Most of them have already been sold or given to my relatives. There''s a thread of my bling on SMTB!

I think she meant where can we find the ones Dave Atlas Estates is selling that were yours.

Nice toe rings!

Oh, silly me!! [SMACK HEAD!!]

I don''t think they sell to retail buyers, but I could be wrong. Best to just call them and ask.

Yeah, I think so too, he he. Wish I could wear them all like that on my foot/feet all day long, he he!!

 

[oldminer]

No, we really make every effort to retain our independent appraisal capabilities and don''t sell to consumers. There are so many other willing and able retailers competing, we have gone in other directions for reselling. Thanks for the nice compliments!

 

[missydebby]

This is so great. I am needing to do some of this and will be talking with Atlas. Thanks for the heads up with your experience.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 5/2/2010 8:50:28 AM
Author: oldminer
No, we really make every effort to retain our independent appraisal capabilities and don''t sell to consumers.

Dave, I always thought that the definition of an independent appraiser was one who didn''t buy or sell.

Wouldn''t the fact that you buy exclude you from this category?

For example, let''s say you are contracted to appraise a nice estate which you would later like to buy. Wouldn''t this create an inherent conflict of interest?

 

[oldminer]

Lot's of people think independent means "limited", but it is a matter of wearing two hats, for two corporations properly. All my appraisal work is done through my partnership in DGLA with offices here and mostly in India. Buying has been my family business for 100+ years and it is done under D. Atlas & Co., Inc. Of course, I don't allow a conflcit of interest to be created. If an appraisal raises the risk of such a conflict or one of bias, I recommend another appraiser or another buyer. I don't tend to sell to consumers, especially appraisal clients. Nearly every sale over many years has been to dealers and retailers except a few neighbors, close friends and the most feared relatives.

Since I am the Charman of the NAJA Ethical Issues Committee, I fully comprehend the nuances to remain unbiased and independent. I stay away from Federal assignments where my buying may be of more interest than appraising. I realize I can't buy and appraise when USPAP is in effect. Yup, I know the rules and how to make it all happen. It is not unethical to be a buyer and an appraiser and one does not lose indepedence by doing both tasks properly and fairly. If anything, putting one's own money on the line in a purchase helps to fine tune my personal knowledge of markets and values beyond what many appraisers understand from printed or on-line price guides they subscribe to.

Knowing when to accept an assignment and knowing when to say "pass" is what it takes.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 5/3/2010 1:02:19 PM
Author: oldminer
It is not unethical to be a buyer and an appraiser and one does not lose indepedence by doing both tasks properly and fairly.

I would agree that it is not unethical to be a buyer and an appraiser. It does seem to knock one out of the "independent" category though.

I don''t think there''s an "independent, except in certain instances" category. You either are, or aren''t.

 

[Hest88]

For some reason...discussions like this really make me miss Rockdoc.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Yeah, ol'' RockDoc really kept things rocking and rolling, didn''t he?

Dave, here''s a quote from Judah''s article about independent appraisals and appraisers:

"An Independent Appraiser, who does nothing other than appraise diamonds and jewelry for a living".

I think this is how most consumers (and the trade) view an "independent" appraiser.

Nobody minds if you buy and sell (which you do both, by the way). I just don''t think you can properly be described as an independent appraiser.

Objective appraiser, yes. Independent appraiser, no.

 

[oldminer]

Oh, I''m independent for sure. No one is bailing out appraisers or jewelers. We are on our own in this economy. So long as I separate buying from appraising and do not sell to appraisal clients, I have no vested interest in the outcome of the reports I create as an appraiser. Just because another party has defined it iin a way which is a tiny bit more limited does not make it correct or better. If a client of mine for an appraisal cannot be handled objectively and openly, then I decline the appraisal. This is as independent as it gets and I have built a nice reputation wearing multiple hats and doing multiple jobs in the industry. There are many appraisers who are independent that have little clue about how to approach any complex appraisal task. They are honest, but the knowledge base they workl from is limited. My wider experience has lead to what I''d call added knowledge in the field.

There are many good competing appraisers listed on Pricescope and I make no secret about what I do. So, if anyone is concerned that what I do conflicts with their needs, then they have excellent alternatives. We all want consumers to be honestly and well served.

 

[denverappraiser]

I largely agree with David that the problem here is in the definition of ‘independent’. Personally, I resolve this by avoiding the term whenever possible with a preference for the word ‘professional’ . We are all remarkably interconnected in this industry, especially those of us who have been at it for a while, and a fair amount of practical experience is one of the very things people are looking for in an appraiser. We have relationships with vendors, with manufactures, and with other customers, and our clients can benefit from those relationships every bit as much as they can be harmed by them. I think none are completely above the fray and able to say that they have no potential for alternative interests and I'm not sure it would be desirable even if it were possible. Part of the mark of a PROFESSIONAL appraiser includes both understanding those potential conflicts and communicating them clearly to a prospective client before starting on an assignment when they’re present.

There’s definitely a line associated with buying and also appraising things and dealing with the inherent conflict of interest between these two is an important issue in the appraisal business. Often clients are seeking both services and most don’t understand the difference, much less that there’s a conflict between the two. Part of the job of the appraiser is to make sure the client understands what service(s) are, and what aren’t being offered with a particular assignment. There is often outrageous abuse in this area by ‘experts’ at auction houses, antique stores, estate liquidators, pawn shops, jewelers and, yes, ‘independent’ appraisers. I have no doubt that Mr. Atlas and his firm are NOT among these problem sources.

That said, it’s important to understand that a bid from a buyer, ANY BUYER, is not an appraisal and it’s not independent. If you want an appraisal, hire a professional appraiser. Don't rely on paperwork provided by a seller, bids from potential buyers,or 'ballpark' guestimates from a source that you haven't vetted. 'Free' advice can turn out to be very expensive indeed.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Rockdiamond]

How about how all this realates to PS- and public statements made.
If I, as a seller, make a comment, my interests are very well defined.
If a member is posting as an appraiser here, yet also buying and selling diamonds, is that a conflict?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 5/5/2010 11:47:38 AM
Author: denverappraiser

I largely agree with David that the problem here is in the definition of ‘independent’.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Seems to me that the definition has always been pretty clear cut.

The reasoning behind the independent status is to avoid being put in a conflict of interest. Every appraiser at some point has to decide if he is going to operate as an independent or as a non-independent. The majority operate as non-independents, so they can buy and sell. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. They just can't be described as independents, that's all.

There's advantages and disadvantages to both positions. As Dave points out, his buying and selling gives him comprehensive knowledge of the market. That's a real plus.

On the other hand, one of the advantages of being independent is you avoid situations where you're put in a conflict of interest. "Self policing" is not necessary.

Even if you sell just to retailers there's a potential conflict of interest. What if a private client comes to you with a diamond that you sold or memo'd on consignment to one of your retail clients? A true independent wouldn't have that conflict arise, whereas someone in Dave's position would have to police himself by informing the client that he has a conflict of interest and has to refer him elsewhere.

Let's kick the pressure up a notch. Let's say it was a big stone, a large monetary sale, and the retailer was a longtime client, who desperately needs the money for one compelling reason or another. In addition the non-independent appraiser-seller needs the money for an equally compelling reason.

You see where things could get sticky?

That's how the category and title of "independent" came into being, and most independent appraisers tend to covet it.

 

[melz]

I met with an appraiser recently billing herself as independent. She also acts as a broker and said she could sell my diamond to a wholesaler. Is this a conflict then?

 

[oldminer]

I don''t covet it enough, I guess. Doing the right thing comes naturally and that''s all it takes. A good sense of what is right and wrong came from my mother who was a criminal defense attorney and my father''s family in the diamond trade where your word meant something. Sure, you can make a scenario where I''d be tempted to cheat, but I''ll rely on my track record. If I know it isn''t in the best interest of the client, or if there is a potential for bias, I''ll let another appraiser have a crack at the fee. Or, if the client insists on me doing the work, they will have full disclosure. I guess my true sense of independence comes from not needing every last buck.

You are totally correct that one can define an independent appraiser as an expert who has absolutely no interest in buying or selling to or from the client and who does not ever buy or sell the type of items appraised. To my way of thinking that is over the top and way too strict for jewelry which is hardly life or death type work, but you can insist that the strictest interpretation works for you and I can live with the fallout. Unfortunately, I see appraisers in this strict category often do not have sufficient market knowledge to make correct value assumptions. Some do, of course, but grading the exams for NAJA has given me quite a good insight into the shortcomings of many up and coming members.

Maybe I should be known instead as "almost independent", "nearly alway independent", or "slightly un-independent". These would be fun terms to explain to clients...............I hope you know I''m just kidding around, too.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/5/2010 3:10:30 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Seems to me that the definition has always been pretty clear cut.

The reasoning behind the independent status is to avoid being put in a conflict of interest. Every appraiser at some point has to decide if he is going to operate as an independent or as a non-independent. The majority operate as non-independents, so they can buy and sell. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. They just can't be described as independents, that's all.

There's advantages and disadvantages to both positions. As Dave points out, his buying and selling gives him comprehensive knowledge of the market. That's a real plus.

On the other hand, one of the advantages of being independent is you avoid situations where you're put in a conflict of interest. 'Self policing' is not necessary.

Even if you sell just to retailers there's a potential conflict of interest. What if a private client comes to you with a diamond that you sold or memo'd on consignment to one of your retail clients? A true independent wouldn't have that conflict arise, whereas someone in Dave's position would have to police himself by informing the client that he has a conflict of interest and has to refer him elsewhere.

Let's kick the pressure up a notch. Let's say it was a big stone, a large monetary sale, and the retailer was a longtime client, who desperately needs the money for one compelling reason or another. In addition the non-independent appraiser-seller needs the money for an equally compelling reason.

You see where things could get sticky?

That's how the category and title of 'independent' came into being, and most independent appraisers tend to covet it.

Oh, I understand the sticky boundaries. I tend to be far more ‘independent’ than nearly every appraiser I come across so it’s a little odd that I’m on the opposing side of this discussion from you. Most IA’s, for example, accept work directly from jewelry stores. That is to say, they have repeat major clients who are in the business of buying and selling things, often the very items that are the subject of the appraisals. Routinely these are their biggest clients (FWIW I don't do this sort of work, partially for this reason and partially because I don't like the fee splitting). The conflict lies in that pissing off a client leads directly to a reduction of future work for the appraiser. They’re a subcontractor of the store and by ‘independent’, they mean that they aren’t actually on the payroll and that they weren’t personally involved in the sale of that particular item. This strikes me as a silly definition but nonetheless, it’s far more typical than the one you’re using.

I have clients who buy things from the public and who hire me to inspect and grade them before they shell out the money. From the standpoint of the sellers, that puts me solidly on the side of the buyer, ie. NOT independent. When I’m working for a consumer who just bought something, I’m solidly working for the buyer. These are not neutral positions and there are plenty of others. I report my findings ONLY to my client who may or may not share this information depending on whether they think it’s in their best interest to do so. This is true even if the other party asks or is even present for the inspection. This filtering by the client can be a hugely important issue for the other party and they would be reasonable to be concerned about the independence of the whole deal.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Hest88]

Date: 5/5/2010 3:49:50 PM
Author: Melz
I met with an appraiser recently billing herself as independent. She also acts as a broker and said she could sell my diamond to a wholesaler. Is this a conflict then?

Hm. I think it''s iffy. For me, as a consumer, what I care about is that an appraiser isn''t going to have any vested interest in appraising my jewelry one way or another. So, if they can profit off of the item I bring in--either monetarily or otherwise--then I would be concerned. They might be perfectly objective when they do the appraisal, but unless I know them like my mother I can''t really be sure, can I?

 

[anne_h]

Phoenix - Thank you for this info! I've been toying with the idea of selling some pieces also, to finance upgrades. lol!!

I have always thought JBEG's consignment model sounds very fair, although I've not yet tried it. But might be even nicer to receive cash directly...

Again, great tip, thank you!!

Anne

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 5/5/2010 3:49:50 PM
Author: Melz
I met with an appraiser recently billing herself as independent. She also acts as a broker and said she could sell my diamond to a wholesaler. Is this a conflict then?

Depends on what you went there for in my opinion, unless you went to her with the expressed interest of her being a broker it was wrong.
What I have a problem with and some appraisers do it is someone brings in an item for appraisal and the appraiser uses that to buy or broker a sale.
That is a huge conflict to me.

I don't have a problem if they advertise that they act as a broker and do so for people who approach them for it.

Where the conflict comes in is mixing those 2 things.

Have someone come in for an appraisal then offer to buy they are not independent but a scoundrel if they advertise as independent.

 

[Phoenix]

Well, I'm an English Chartered Accountant (equivalent of American CPA) and have worked as an Auditor for most of my professional life. For us, the term "independent" has been thrown around, questioned and discussed to death!! What I do know is this: "independent" is not so much about terminology or definition, it is to do with deed, ie. it is how one acts that defines how truly independent one is.

In my experience in dealing with Dave Atlas, there has never been any hint of conflict of interest or lack of objectivity. Dave handled the appraisal completely independently of the sales, which incidentally were handled by Steve Schiffman. Furthermore, I've never felt that the appraisal was somehow tinted or compromised. It was done according to my stated requirements, and not once was there mention of anything else, nor did I ever feel that there was any "hidden agenda" on Dave's part.

 

[Phoenix]

Date: 5/5/2010 11:14:23 PM
Author: Phoenix
Well, I'm an English Chartered Accountant (equivalent of American CPA) and have worked as an Auditor for most of my professional life. For us, the term 'independent' has been thrown around, questioned and discussed to death!! What I do know is this: 'independent' is not so much about terminology or definition, it is to do with deed, ie. it is how one acts that defines how truly independent one is.

In my experience in dealing with Dave Atlas, there has never been any hint of conflict of interest or lack of objectivity. Dave handled the appraisal completely independently of the sales, which incidentally were handled by Steve Schiffman. Furthermore, I've never felt that the appraisal was somehow tinted or compromised. It was done according to my stated requirements, and not once was there mention of anything else, nor did I ever feel that there was any 'hidden agenda' on Dave's part.

ETA: Just to clarify - in case: Dave was the one handling the appraisal of my new diamond. With regard to the sales of my old diamond(s) (jewellery), Steve was the one handling them. I think once, I emailed Dave to enquire about Steve (not realising that Steve had gone on a biz trip somewhere) and Dave quickly responded to say that Steve would get in touch with me as soon as he got back. Dave did not attempt to take part, in whatever capacity, in the sales.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I would like to make it clear that I''m not questioning Dave''s integrity. We all know he is a stand up guy.

What I''m questioning is his description of himself as an independent appraiser.

That''s it, plain and simple.

Perhaps I should start another topic with the purpose of determining what should be the determining factors of whether an appraiser can call himself independent or not.

 

[Karl_K]

I should clarify also that I have a ton of respect for Dave and have no doubt he does his best to act in an honorable way and take care of his clients.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 5/6/2010 12:14:29 PM
Author: Karl_K
I should clarify also that I have a ton of respect for Dave and have no doubt he does his best to act in an honorable way and take care of his clients.

interesting turn this thread took... I agree with what you said above storm, but I do think it''s pretty grey the area where someone is appraising something his partner (or close associate) is planning or possibly purchasing. I think DAVID probably is masterful in that grey area, but as a GENERAL caution, I''m not sure I like this practice.