Selecting the most perfectly cut H&A

[vices]

So my girl and I have done our research and spent a long time looking at diamonds in stores to determine our preferences. Turns out we want F or better color, VS2 or better clarity, and a diameter of 7.3-7.6mm (which is usually about 1.3-1.7 carats). That's the easy part.

Of course we care most about cut, and we realized (kinda surprisingly) that we want Hearts & Arrows. So now we're on a mission to find the most perfectly cut H&A we can.

I found 19 H&A that meet all of our criteria, and I put them together in a spreadsheet with all of their dimensions and proportions. See here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgporTFR1Y1rdFo0V0VaX1UweGtFWEw5Um80Z3hzZGc#gid=0

I tried to find the min/max for the diameter, crown/pavilion angles, and girdle, but that wasn't available for all of them. But for the ones that do provide min/max, I realized that some have significant(?) variance while others do not. There's hardly any variance for the crown/pavilion angles on these (never more than 0.3 degrees), but some have slight variance in diameter and/or girdle. For example, Diamond A has a min/max girdle of 1.8%/2.0%, but Diamond D has a min/max girdle of 1.1%/3.5%, which seems like a pretty substantial difference. I'm not sure how this sort of variation around the diamond would impact light performance.

How would you go about finding the best cut diamond on this list? Thanks!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I have personally bought WhiteFlash ACA's and a Good Old Gold superior H&A stone and would definitely buy from both of them again. Those would be my first choice vendors. Brian Gavin has excellent stones as well, but I have found their prices a little higher at times. You'd have to compare stones with the same specs to know if that is the case now. I believe that any of the signature/top stones of any of these three would be outstanding. They have very specific criteria to even put the stones in their top category so you'd be safe with any of them. The deciding factor for choosing might depend on what setting you want. Have you chosen a particular setting?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Aside from the setting issue, I would not pay for VVS+ if there are VS options. I usually aim for VS1 because it is such a clean stone but you don't pay the price premium for VVS. VS2's can be good, too, but I like some of those better than others.

I'd probably choose this one because you don't have to worry about the clarity and you aren't overpaying for VVS.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2599706.htm

 

[vices]

Cool, yeah, I thought those all looked great too. I wasn't as sure about the James Allen H&A; they looked much less precise in the photos (and they don't have ideal-scope images posted), but the dimensions seemed really similar so I wasn't sure if it was just poor photos.

With all of ACA and Brian Gavin Signature choices being so high-quality, I'm not sure how to narrow down.

The setting will be a six-prong solitaire. That part seemed so simple, we haven't put too much thought into it -- care much more about the diamond and are viewing the setting as just a means to display it. What kind of impact might this choice of setting have on our selection?

 

[vices]

Yeah, I agree about the VVS+ ones. I just included anything that met our criteria, but we really don't care about clarity beyond VS.

 

[AnneinGA]

I think I would choose diamond A on your list. Seems to be the best combo of cut, clarity, color, carat and price, which will leave you more $$$ for your setting. I think that all of these are so close that once you have in front of you it won't really matter. They are all beautiful stones.

 

[yssie]

So my girl and I have done our research and spent a long time looking at diamonds in stores to determine our preferences. Turns out we want F or better color, VS2 or better clarity, and a diameter of 7.3-7.6mm (which is usually about 1.3-1.7 carats). That's the easy part.

Of course we care most about cut, and we realized (kinda surprisingly) that we want Hearts & Arrows. So now we're on a mission to find the most perfectly cut H&A we can.

I found 19 H&A that meet all of our criteria, and I put them together in a spreadsheet with all of their dimensions and proportions. See here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgporTFR1Y1rdFo0V0VaX1UweGtFWEw5Um80Z3hzZGc#gid=0

I tried to find the min/max for the diameter, crown/pavilion angles, and girdle, but that wasn't available for all of them. But for the ones that do provide min/max, I realized that some have significant(?) variance while others do not. There's hardly any variance for the crown/pavilion angles on these (never more than 0.3 degrees), but some have slight variance in diameter and/or girdle. For example, Diamond A has a min/max girdle of 1.8%/2.0%, but Diamond D has a min/max girdle of 1.1%/3.5%, which seems like a pretty substantial difference. I'm not sure how this sort of variation around the diamond would impact light performance.

How would you go about finding the best cut diamond on this list? Thanks!

Is the primary goal of this thread to choose a diamond to buy or to nitpick over the definition/interpretation of H&A? What you're looking for will change how people who see your post will respond.

Couple of notes -

1. Picture perfect H&A patterns don't by themselves signify that a diamond will be a winner. There are *many* factors that determine how a diamond returns light, of which optical symmetry is one...

2. The definition of "best" is subjective. Some people prefer a diamond that plays with light in certain ways, others prefer diamonds that behave differently. They're nuances that most consumers don't care about, that most customers won't ever notice let alone appreciate, but they become relevant when you're trying (and failing) to pinpoint a point-source "best"!

3. Usually boutique vendors of H&A brands have lists of other requirements that a stone must meet before it's included in the brand. WF and BGD have tight proportions specifications in addition to optical symmetry requirements, so their H&A stones are all proportioned similarly and will perform similarly IRL - just choose blindly based on carat/colour/clarity/budget! GOG is strict with the optical symmetry requirement but more flexible w/ proportions ranges, so different H&A stones may behave a little different IRL. The one you've chosen is one of the more unusual sort - LGF82 by the scan, you wouldn't see that stone in WF or BGD's H&A inventory. Again, that DOESN'T mean that it's an objectively "less beautiful" stone - the various vendors define their H&A lines differently - but you can see how this makes it futile to try to pinpoint one flavour of stone as "best"...

Here's an interesting read, Paul shared a bit of the history of H&A and what that might mean for consumers today - just one of the many H&A discussions on PS if you care to poke around
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/h-a-pattern-vs-crispness.146607/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/h-a-pattern-vs-crispness.146607/[/URL]

4. GIA and AGSL report girdle thickness differently - GIA measures only at the valleys, AGSL specifies thickest and thinnest at any point, so a larger variation is unsurprising.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/girdles.66614/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/girdles.66614/[/URL]
http://diamondcut.gia.edu/pdf/culet_girdle_assessment_0106.pdf

If this is supposed to be more of a "help me pick a stone from this list" type of thread here's my 2c -
- Ditto DS - you can eliminate any stones with clarity over VS2, or VS1 from JA since I don't see any VS2s on your list, there's no point in paying for clarity that has no practical/visual benefit and once you've zeroed in on a couple of stones you can call the vendor(s) and confirm that they're completely eyeclean to your specifications - whatever they are!
- Ditto DS again - do you like a specific 6 prong from one of those vendors? If so, choose a stone from that vendor as well.
- Can you post the full hearts pics of the JA VS1s here in this thread? I can only see the top right corners of them and I'm not up to installing a different browser right now!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I will say then, that my top choice of classic 6 prong Tiffany settings is the Vatche U-113, which is carried by both WhiteFlash and Good Old Gold. I actually have the setting myself.

 

[vices]

Thanks for the info, yssie.

The goal of this thread was to ask advice on choosing one of the H&As on my list by cut, not to nitpick over H&A interpretation.

I do know that H&A patterns alone don't signify a winner, which is why diamonds only made it to my list if their cut/symmetry/dimensions/proportions were top quality, too.

I also know the definition of "best" is subjective; I'm sorry I was not more clear. I realize that everyone has tendencies toward different preferences, so that's why I was asking how people would go about making this decision based on cut. The pavilion angles on all of these choices are basically the same, so I could imagine someone answering that I may want to consider narrowing down by the crown angles of these choices by deciding if I prefer stones on one end of the spectrum or the other as "best" to me.

Thanks for the other information. The WF and BGD all do appear very similar in their dimensions, so I guess it's not worth picking them apart by a tenth of a degree.

The H&A/crispness post was interesting, as I'm specifically concerned with the "crispness," which is why the photos of the JA H&As appeared less impressive to me.

Good point about the girdles. The difference in variation I observed between Diamonds A and D on my list is for diamonds both graded by AGS, though. So I'm not sure what that means for those stones.

I hadn't considered looking at the vendors' choices of settings, so that may be another thing to consider.

As requested, here are the hearts pics of the JA VS1s:
Diamond M: http://cdn3.jamesallen.com/Sets/diamond/73572/hearts.png
Diamond N: http://cdn3.jamesallen.com/Sets/diamond/73571/hearts.png
Diamond R: http://cdn3.jamesallen.com/Sets/diamond/73654/hearts.png

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I'd still prefer the other vendors over JA because of their superior cut stones in general, as well as a much better trade-in policies.

 

[yssie]

Thanks for the info, yssie.

The goal of this thread was to ask advice on choosing one of the H&As on my list by cut, not to nitpick over H&A interpretation.

I do know that H&A patterns alone don't signify a winner, which is why diamonds only made it to my list if their cut/symmetry/dimensions/proportions were top quality, too.

I also know the definition of "best" is subjective; I'm sorry I was not more clear. I realize that everyone has tendencies toward different preferences, so that's why I was asking how people would go about making this decision based on cut. The pavilion angles on all of these choices are basically the same, so I could imagine someone answering that I may want to consider narrowing down by the crown angles of these choices by deciding if I prefer stones on one end of the spectrum or the other as "best" to me.

Thanks for the other information. The WF and BGD all do appear very similar in their dimensions, so I guess it's not worth picking them apart by a tenth of a degree.

The H&A/crispness post was interesting, as I'm specifically concerned with the "crispness," which is why the photos of the JA H&As appeared less impressive to me.

Good point about the girdles. The difference in variation I observed between Diamonds A and D on my list is for diamonds both graded by AGS, though. So I'm not sure what that means for those stones.

I hadn't considered looking at the vendors' choices of settings, so that may be another thing to consider.

As requested, here are the hearts pics of the JA VS1s:
Diamond M: http://cdn3.jamesallen.com/Sets/diamond/73572/hearts.png post the full picture, I can see only the top left corner - or ask them to repost
Diamond N: http://cdn3.jamesallen.com/Sets/diamond/73571/hearts.png fine - symmetric across 2 o'clock -- 8 o'clock
Diamond R: http://cdn3.jamesallen.com/Sets/diamond/73654/hearts.png fine

JA's policies are less generous but their pricepoints are lower than the other vendors'. Of the four GOG offers the most info but that particular stone is not a flavour I personally prefer.

 

[mcosme]

I would go with A, can't go wrong with WF ACAs

 

[TC1987]

I like a certain "look" so I look for table in the 55%-56% range, and I also like shorter lower halves, 77%-80% for fatter arrows. See http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/facets-the-lower-halves.htm for info on the mains. That will explain what people were saying about that Good Old Gold diamond that's on your list: Skinny arrows.
There are variations in the "look" of H&A diamonds, the character of them.

eta: Brian Gavin was formerly at Whiteflash and he developed the original ACA criteria. ACA diamonds and Brian Gavin's diamonds might have similar appearance, if both are still being cut to similar specifications.

 

[stargurl78]

I don't think you can go wrong with a WF ACA or BGD Signature stone. I love BGD's 6-prong Tiffany solitaire:
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/classic-tiffany-style-half-round-18k-white-gold-5478w18

And I think one of these 2 stones would be my pick:
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.511-e-vs2-round-diamond-ags-1040397620024#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/1/

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.551-e-vs1-round-diamond-ags-104051364002#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/1/

I love this one too but not sure the price increase would be worth it:
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.532-d-vs1-round-diamond-ags-104047809010#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/1/

I also like the 3 VS1 stones from James Allen as well. You have a lot of great options!