Seeking opinions - 3 ct blue sapphire

[cookies]

I received a blue Ceylon sapphire a few days ago, and need to decide if it is "the one". The facts and the pictures are attached below. Please let me know your thoughts. The more, the merrier. Thank you!

The size is 8.3 x 7.3 mm, cushion, 3.04 ct, heated. The description says intense medium rich blue, excellent clarity, excellent cut. It's not certified, but if I do decide to go forward with this sapphire, I would ask the vendor to get an AGL report. (Would an AGL Brief report suffice? Or should I ask for a full prestige report?)

Below are some indoor and outdoor pictures I picked out of millions that I took. In some of the pictures, I placed the sapphire next to a tanzanite CZ for color reference. The vendor picture is in the end.

Under fluorescent light, this little thing looks almost like a deep-blue/violet tanzanite. It has those little beautiful flashes.

Under LED light:



Indoor, under a skylight:



Indoor, next to windows: (the table seems to have my finger oil! )



Indoor, hand shot 1:



Indoor, hand shot 2:



Outdoor, in direct sunlight:



Outdoor, in the shade 1:



Outdoor, in the shade 2:



Outdoor, in the shade 3:



Outdoor, in the shade 4:



Vendor picture:

 

[cookies]

Thought I should add that I was quoted at approximately $2560 per carat, before PS member discount. I wonder if I could do better.

 

[chrono]

Looks like a nice stone. Do you like it, love it or just not sure?

 

[cookies]

I like the shape, and the overall color.

One thing that's kind of bothering me is, in the 5th picture in my original post (indoor, hand shot 2), the top half of the stone looks quite dark (shadowing?), while the bottom half flashes blue like crazy. Is the "shadowing" normal for sapphires or elongated cushion cuts? The bottom (pavilion) does curve outward (belly?) very slightly. Maybe it's a cut-related issue?

Regardless, I was hoping for a more evenly-distributed color. However, I don't know if I could do much better than this sapphire, in the $2000-$2500/ct range. I haven't seen many good sapphires in real life, so I am a bit unsure.

 

[chrono]

If the shadowing bothers you now, it will continue to bug you worse as time goes on. Not all stones show this so I suggest that you return this sapphire as it sounds like it isn't the one for you. Depending on the cut, some stones show this whilst others don't. It isn't limited to sapphires or elongated cushions either. I've seen it in ovals, square cushions and even a round!

 

[cookies]

Chrono, thank you for your reply. The shadowing was one of the first few things I noticed, so you are probably right that it will keep bugging me. The color on this one is great though! But I've let the vendor know my main concern (shadowing), and we are going to look at other stones.

A somewhat related question -- In your experience, does the picture in the gem lab report tell much about the true color of the stone? I mean, if the vendor pictures looks iffy, but the lab's picture looks good, does that mean the stone has great potential? I am going through a list of sapphires online, and notice that the lab picture usually looks worse than the vendor picture, but very occasionally, it's the other way around.

 

[chrono]

I agree that the colour looks pleasant, which makes the keep/return decision doubly difficult. Perhaps if the price wasn't as high, one might be more willing to overlook the extinction.

I use the gem lab report picture as an unbiased worse case comparison. For the most part, most lab pictures are terribly ugly so if it looks nice, the likelihood of the stone look better in person is very high. There are a few labs where this is the exception though I'd rather not name names publicly. It is also a nice way to to help spot certain cut issues, such as shallowness, muddiness and windowing.

 

[mariedtiger]

I really love the sunlight and ledlight pictures. Wonderful. I agree with Chrono, though, if something about the stone irritates you now, that irritation tends to grow with time. I have a tiny blue sapphire that blows me away in sunlight, but is a bit dark inside. So I wear it outside, on sunny days. But it is only an occasional wear ring.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[cookies]

Thank you, Chrono and mariedtiger.

I've shipped the stone back, but could still have it if I change my mind. My vendor thinks that once the sapphire is set east-west in the tension setting I picked, the shadowing will probably go away, because there will be more light coming in from underneath the stone than when it directly rests between my fingers. But I am not sure about that.

I start to wonder if I should redirect my search effort to precision-cut sapphires, in which case I'd still get the setting from this vendor. So far, they are a great pleasure to work with and their quotes have been reasonable.

I see that Roger Dery (http://www.spectralgems.net/sapphire/) has a couple round ones (4.34ct, 3.02ct) that look quite nice in the picture, and Gary Braun (http://www.finewatergems.com/sapphire.html) has a few cushions and ovals whose colors look yummy, although the size/shape combo isn't exactly what I am looking for. My ideal is a square cushion with rounded corners in the 7.5-9mm range.

 

[T L]

Thank you, Chrono and mariedtiger.

I've shipped the stone back, but could still have it if I change my mind. My vendor thinks that once the sapphire is set east-west in the tension setting I picked, the shadowing will probably go away, because there will be more light coming in from underneath the stone than when it directly rests between my fingers. But I am not sure about that.

I start to wonder if I should redirect my search effort to precision-cut sapphires, in which case I'd still get the setting from this vendor. So far, they are a great pleasure to work with and their quotes have been reasonable.

I see that Roger Dery (http://www.spectralgems.net/sapphire/) has a couple round ones (4.34ct, 3.02ct) that look quite nice in the picture, and Gary Braun (http://www.finewatergems.com/sapphire.html) has a few cushions and ovals whose colors look yummy, although the size/shape combo isn't exactly what I am looking for. My ideal is a square cushion with rounded corners in the 7.5-9mm range.

Precision cut stones can still have half/half extinction. It's typically the shape of the stone that determines this. If you don't like that sort of thing, you should go with rounds, squarer cuts and cushions, and stay away from elongated cuts, like pears, ovals, elongated radiants, octagons and cushions. Sometimes extinction isn't as much of an issue on some elongated cuts because the tone is lighter.

A step cut emerald shape/cut does not show half extinction either, as an elongated cut.

 

[chrono]

You are correct that turning the stone EW will lessen how often you see the extinction. It is a function of how and where the light hits the stone, which is why I don't think having light come through from the back with the use of a tension setting will make much difference. It is essentially the light path coupled with the cut design that causes it which is why if you see it when the stone is NS, turning it around EW under the same light condition (be it set or loose) magically causes it to go away more often than not.

Precision cutting does not guarantee perfect cut performance either. As mentioned in a few other threads, I'd like to return to "good" and "poor" cut, rather than "precision" and "native" cut, since there are good and poor examples from both precision and native cut stones. Roger Dery's 4.34 ct or 3.02 ct do not have perfect meetpoints and an ever so tiny window, but are cut well enough to fall under the "good" category. Due to the colouration being great, the cut issues are very minor and can be very easily forgiven. As always, seeing these two sapphires in person is best.

ETA
I agree with TL's post above. I've seen precision cut stones exhibit the shadowing/extinction as well, particularly on rectangular shapes and ovals due to the design chosen. I have also seen it rarely on square cushions and exactly once on a round.

 

[cookies]

Thank you, TL and Chrono. I didn't know the term shadowing until I saw this stone in person and spent some time google-ing around. I wish I had known this before I asked my vendor to source a stone for me.

Chrono - Are you saying that the shadowing might go away if it's set EW? Sorry for being so dumb...I read your reply a few times, and am still not quite sure. I also couldn't locate the non-perfect meetpoints in Roger's pictures, but that's not as important.

Luckily, I like square cushion, emerald shape/cut, and round. Two other heated ceylon sapphires I am also considering are as follows. They are from the same source as the one I just sent back. I couldn't tell if the cut is "good" from the picture. Would you please take a quick look to see if either of them looks promising? I'd need to ask the vendor about the girdle thickness.

7.7 x 7.3mm, 2.61ct, cushion (almost square), vivid intense rich blue, excellent clarity:



8.86 x 6.13mm, 3.01ct, emerald step cut / octagonal shape, vivid intense open rich blue, excellent clarity:

 

[LoversKites]

In my opinion, yes, they show promise. The colour in the photos are similar to the original one so it is likely you will like the colour in hand too. The step cut's cut corners seems a little asymmetrical but I don't know if that will be visible in hand. The cushion's and the step cut's face up is similar. Therefore I would go with the cushion as I'm sure there is a noticeable price difference on the other one for reaching the 3ct mark.

Whichever you get will be a good choice, really.

 

[T L]

When I said an emerald step cut doesn't typically show extinction, I was wrong. It does, but when I said, that, I had more of this type of cut in mind.

http://dlvthb1vmr6w6.cloudfront.net/yswimages/emerald--g2k-blue-tourmaline307.jpg

You can ask the vendor about extinction, and shadowing. Also ask about what they look like in various lighting (natural, fluorescent, incandescent), and if they color shift.

 

[RTFrog]

Hi Cookie,

After looking at the stone, the vendor picture, and the in-hand picture... then the rest of this thread so far, I would say the stone is nice, but most likely not the "one". You've slept on it, carried it around and checked out all light performance and have gotten to know it. This coupled with some excellent advice offered in this thread can help with the hunt/search for the one. If you return it, best of luck - you will find it

 

[cookies]

Thank you, LoversKites, TL, and RTFrog.

TL - The picture you linked to has g2k in the name, which happens to be the source my vendor has been using. Since Gem 2000 deals with trade only (I think) and thus I need to go through the vendor, it's a bit tricky to get direct answers to your mentioned questions. Because of this, I find the hunt a little stressful, if you know what I mean. That being said, if you see anything on http://www.gem2000.com that's very much worth considering, please do let me know!

ETA:
I am distracted by their aquamarine collection right now even though I know it's not suitable for a tension setting...

 

[T L]

Thank you, LoversKites, TL, and RTFrog.

TL - The picture you linked to has g2k in the name, which happens to be the source my vendor has been using. Since Gem 2000 deals with trade only (I think) and thus I need to go through the vendor, it's a bit tricky to get direct answers to your mentioned questions. Because of this, I find the hunt a little stressful, if you know what I mean. That being said, if you see anything on http://www.gem2000.com that's very much worth considering, please do let me know!

ETA:
I am distracted by their aquamarine collection right now even though I know it's not suitable for a tension setting...

I looked at that site, and my taste deviates more toward lighter toned sapphires, which may not be your thing. You have to buy what YOU like.

But, just for fun, I picked out these. . .

I like 4897, 4898, 5613, 5590, and I would ask about zoning on any sapphire you decide to buy.

 

[cookies]

I just talked to the vendor. They were informed by their source that the 2.61ct cushion I posted above is darker than the one I just sent back, so that cushion is out. The 3.01ct emerald I posted above has a color similar to the 2.61ct cushion, but since I am quite drawn to the emerald shape, I asked the vendor to ask the source how that emerald looks in reality.

Their source also suggested a couple other cushions that are lighter in tone than the one I just sent back. So now I am down to 2 cushions and 2 emerald-cuts (please see below). The vendor is going to talk to the source tomorrow to see if these have shadowing, bow tie, window, color shift, etc.

In the meantime, I want to ask you guys, what might be going on with the vertical strip in the center of the first cushion below (3.46ct)? Also, the second emerald-cut stone below (4th picture, 4.24ct) has a pale strip going across the stone horizontally. What do you think might be going on there?

8.6 x 7.5 mm, 3.46 ct, heated, intense medium plus:



8.3 x 7.4 mm, 3.07 ct, heated, medium rich blue:



8.86 x 6.13 x 5.35 mm, 3.01 ct, heated, vivid intense open rich blue, has GRS report:



10.27 x 8 x 5.34 mm, 4.24 ct, unheated, vivid medium cornflower blue, with brilliant-cut crown, modified step-cut pavilion, has GIA report:



Here is the GIA report picture of the last stone (4.24 ct emerald):



Thank you very much!

 

[T L]

I just talked to the vendor. They were informed by their source that the 2.61ct cushion I posted above is darker than the one I just sent back, so that cushion is out. The 3.01ct emerald I posted above has a color similar to the 2.61ct cushion, but since I am quite drawn to the emerald shape, I asked the vendor to ask the source how that emerald looks in reality.

Their source also suggested a couple other cushions that are lighter in tone (slightly lighter than the one I sent back). So now I am down to 2 cushions and 2 emerald-cuts (please see below). The vendor is going to talk to the source tomorrow to see if these have shadowing, bow tie, window, color shift, etc.

In the meantime, I want to ask you guys, what might be going on with the vertical strip in the center of the first cushion below (3.46ct)? Also, the second emerald-cut stone below (4th picture, 4.24ct) has a pale strip going across the stone horizontally. What do you think might be going on there?

8.6 x 7.5 mm, 3.46 ct, heated, intense medium plus:



8.3 x 7.4 mm, 3.07 ct, heated, medium rich blue:



8.86 x 6.13 x 5.35 mm, 3.01 ct, heated, vivid intense open rich blue, has GRS report:



10.27 x 8 x 5.34 mm, 4.24 ct, unheated, vivid medium cornflower blue, with brilliant-cut crown, modified step-cut pavilion, has GIA report:



Here is the GIA report picture of the last stone (4.24 ct emerald):



Thank you very much!

The "pale strip" you talk of is "zoning" which is why I mentioned it. Usually there are bands of more saturated color in sapphires, and if they face up well, the zoning is not so much of an issue. This is why sapphires should also be viewed through the pavillion, to see the zoning.

 

[cookies]

I looked at that site, and my taste deviates more toward lighter toned sapphires, which may not be your thing. You have to buy what YOU like.

But, just for fun, I picked out these. . .

I like 4897, 4898, 5613, 5590, and I would ask about zoning on any sapphire you decide to buy.

The "pale strip" you talk of is "zoning" which is why I mentioned it. Usually there are band of more saturated color in sapphires, and if they face up well, the zoning is not so much of an issue. This is why sapphires should also be viewed through the pavillion, to see the zoning.

TL, I really like the ones you picked out! I am going to add them to my list. The 5590 is actually one of the two cushions recommended by the G2K people.

Is the vertical "dark strip" in the 5590 also considered zoning? Is the "pale-strip" zoning in the 4.24ct emerald-cut much less acceptable than the possible zoning in the 5990?

I am going to read up more about zoning. At the moment, I only know that's an undesirable attribute, but don't understand why it's there or how much it affects the beauty of the stone.

 

[chrono]

I know you don't want a round and it's probably too small for you but just wanted to throw this out since it is well coloured, well cut and comes with a GIA lab report.
http://loupetroop.com/listings/loose-stones-colored-gemstone/blue-sapphire-heat-only-2-dot-98cts;3427

 

[cookies]

I know you don't want a round and it's probably too small for you but just wanted to throw this out since it is well coloured, well cut and comes with a GIA lab report.
http://loupetroop.com/listings/loose-stones-colored-gemstone/blue-sapphire-heat-only-2-dot-98cts;3427

Chrono, thank you for the link! The price is quite good, but the color might be a little dark for me. I think I am gravitating towards medium-blue now, after seeing the stone I just sent back.

 

[chrono]

5590 also shows promise to me; the only caveat being how obvious the zoning (or could be silk) is in person.
I like 5613 even though the saturation isn't intense because the cutting is going to make it very flashy and it will never over darken.
I prefer the colour of 4898 over 5613 though for more intense colouration.
Based on all the options you've presented thus far, I think you will be disappointed with 5466 because it is light in tone.

The more obvious the zoning, the more the stone is discounted. Obvious zoning makes the sapphire look as though it is patchy or lost its colour in certain places.

 

[cookies]

Thank you Chrono. My vendor is going to find out if that's zoning or something else in 5590. I agree 5466 doesn't look as attractive as the others, so it's out.

Because 5613 has square corners, it's probably going to be a little more difficult to set into a tension setting than 4898 and 4897. Below is the setting I picked out. I will get it in 18K rose gold, possibly in matte finish. By default, the shank is 62% or 80% of the width of the stone, but they can do other percentages if they need to. I don't want the shank to be too wide though. 5mm is good. 6mm might be a little wide, but might still be okay...I am not quite sure. The ring in the picture is 62% with 7mm center.

 

[T L]

Thank you Chrono. My vendor is going to find out if that's zoning or something else in 5590. I agree 5466 doesn't look as attractive as the others, so it's out.

Because 5613 has square corners, it's probably going to be a little more difficult to set into a tension setting than 4898 and 4897. Below is the setting I picked out. I will get it in 18K rose gold, possibly in matte finish. By default, the shank is 62% or 80% of the width of the stone, but they can do other percentages if they need to. I don't want the shank to be too wide though. 5mm is good. 6mm might be a little wide, but might still be okay...I am not quite sure. The ring in the picture is 62% with 7mm center.

They make tension settings that aren't really tension, they have a hidden basket. Can you even set a sapphire in a tension setting? Not sure, but I thought I'd throw that out there. I thought they were only suitable for diamonds.

 

[T L]

I looked at that site, and my taste deviates more toward lighter toned sapphires, which may not be your thing. You have to buy what YOU like.

But, just for fun, I picked out these. . .

I like 4897, 4898, 5613, 5590, and I would ask about zoning on any sapphire you decide to buy.

The "pale strip" you talk of is "zoning" which is why I mentioned it. Usually there are band of more saturated color in sapphires, and if they face up well, the zoning is not so much of an issue. This is why sapphires should also be viewed through the pavillion, to see the zoning.

TL, I really like the ones you picked out! I am going to add them to my list. The 5590 is actually one of the two cushions recommended by the G2K people.

Is the vertical "dark strip" in the 5590 also considered zoning? Is the "pale-strip" zoning in the 4.24ct emerald-cut much less acceptable than the possible zoning in the 5990?

I am going to read up more about zoning. At the moment, I only know that's an undesirable attribute, but don't understand why it's there or how much it affects the beauty of the stone.

It's really hard to tell how much zoning there is from these photographs. It would be nice to see the stones at different angles, like in a video, because zoning can also be more visible at a slight tilt. I've seen sapphires with so much zoning they were almost colorless at one angle, and had total color at another. Zoning is most undesirable if it's very obvious from the table, and these stones, to my eye, aren't that bad as far as zoning goes from the table vantage point. I would forgo a little zoning if the sapphire had amazing color, and all the other attributes I desired.

 

[T L]

I like 5613 even though the saturation isn't intense because the cutting is going to make it very flashy and it will never over darken.
I prefer the colour of 4898 over 5613 though for more intense colouration.

They are pretty close in color though, and the tone is the same. Therefore, if you prefer a shape over the other, or cutting, or some other attribute, I don't think you'll be sacrificing on color too much.

 

[T L]

Out of all the stones listed though, I think this one is the best combination for saturation, hue and tone. It just lacks the nicer faceting of the others I just pointed out, and it appears to have zoning, but if color is king on your list of attributes, this one is worth looking at. It depends on what your favorite attributes are.

 

[cookies]

They make tension settings that aren't really tension, they have a hidden basket. Can you even set a sapphire in a tension setting? Not sure, but I thought I'd throw that out there. I thought they were only suitable for diamonds.

I don't know what a hidden basket looks like...will do a search about that. The Steven Kretchmer tension settings can take sapphires and rubies. The vendor said they even have seen tourmalines set in the Kretchmer rings. Another tension setting manufacturer, Niessing, only does diamonds for their tension settings. The one I picked is a Kretchmer setting.

 

[T L]

They make tension settings that aren't really tension, they have a hidden basket. Can you even set a sapphire in a tension setting? Not sure, but I thought I'd throw that out there. I thought they were only suitable for diamonds.

I don't know what a hidden basket looks like...will do a search about that. The Steven Kretchmer tension settings can take sapphires and rubies. The vendor said they even have seen tourmalines set in the Kretchmer rings. Another tension setting manufacturer, Niessing, only does diamonds for their tension settings. The one I picked is a Kretchmer setting.

Kind of like this, but some are better and more subtle than others.