Seeing Fakes, Angry Traders Confront EBay

[AGBF]

There have been some threads on Pricescope about buying this or that on eBay. I remember threads on handbags especially well (probably because I never entered the world of expensive handbags and am amazed by it). I thought that this article might be interesting to some people.

"A year ago Jacqui Rogers, a retiree in southern Oregon who dabbles in vintage costume jewelry, went on eBay and bought 10 butterfly brooches made by Weiss, a well-known maker of high-quality costume jewelry in the 1950's and 1960's.

At first, Ms. Rogers thought she had snagged a great deal. But when the jewelry arrived from a seller in Rhode Island, her well-trained eye told her that all of the pieces were knockoffs.

Even though Ms. Rogers received a refund after she confronted the seller, eBay refused to remove hundreds of listings for identical 'Weiss' pieces. It said it had no responsibility for the fakes because it was nothing more than a marketplace that links buyers and sellers.

That very stance — the heart of eBay's business model — is now being challenged by eBay users like Ms. Rogers who notify other unsuspecting buyers of fakes on the site. And it is being tested by a jewelry seller with far greater resources than Ms. Rogers: Tiffany & Company, which has sued eBay for facilitating the trade of counterfeit Tiffany items on the site.

If Tiffany wins its case, not only would other lawsuits follow, but eBay's very business model would be threatened because it would be nearly impossible for the company to police a site that now has 180 million members and 60 million items for sale at any one time."

There's more!!! Go to the article!

Seeing Fakes, Angry Traders Confront EBay

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/29/2006 8:28:31 AM
Author:AGBF
"A year ago Jacqui Rogers, a retiree in southern Oregon who dabbles in vintage costume jewelry, went on eBay and bought 10 butterfly brooches made by Weiss, a well-known maker of high-quality costume jewelry in the 1950's and 1960's."

I just wanted to follow up with a little more from the article since this is specifically about jewelry sold on eBay!

Jaqcqui Rogers and some other women have been trying to combat the draud on eBay. I found this interesting because it asserts that in at least one group of sellers positive feedback is being planted by cronies of the those selling counterfeit jewelry. For those of us who read feedback carefully and depend on it, this is a warning!

"The women say that by watching the listings they have uncovered a ring of a half-dozen or so counterfeiters, most of them living in Rhode Island within a few miles of one other. They say the sellers supply one another with fake jewelry, conceal the fact that they are buying from one another to boost their seller status, and regularly dole out positive feedback to each other to fool potential buyers.

Ms. Pollack was unaware of the abundance of counterfeit pieces on eBay when she paid $360 for what she thought were genuine pieces of Weiss jewelry. She demanded a refund from the seller, who refused.

Ms. Pollack said it wasn't until she filed a formal complaint with PayPal, eBay's online payment system, that the seller offered to refund her money. Since then, she has sent eBay officials a raft of evidence pointing out the presence of the counterfeits, including an independent appraisal from Gary L. Smith, a gemologist in Montoursville, Pa., who declared the five brooches Ms. Pollack sent him to be unmistakable fakes.

This reporter, too, sent a butterfly brooch with 'Weiss' stamped on the back, purchased for $12.99 recently from one of the alleged counterfeiters, to Mr. Smith. He determined that there was nothing vintage about it — certainly not the very new glue used to hold in the glass stones. (In a subsequent phone conversation, the seller, Garnet Justice, who lives in Leesburg, Ind., said she had 'no idea' whether the pin was authentic, and offered a full refund.)"

 

[fire&ice]

Fakes are not limited to the ebay market. I don''t see how ebay can be held libel. Is a show promoter libel? No. Is an antique mall held libel? No. In these cases, they are facilitators as well. The only way they could be held libel is if they some how have a guarantee or the show/mall claims to be vetted.

Maybe I have a different spin. Caveat empteur (sp?) Anything I buy on ebay is at my own risk. Honestly, I have seen people spend their money on things that are clear fakes just because they perceive it''s cheap. If you don''t know what you are doing, seek the advice of someone who does & pay for the expertise. If you see 100 Weiss butterfly brooches offered at the same time, it should illicit a "things that make you go ummmm" response.

It is a rather rare occassion that fakes are that good. That said, fakes do hurt the market overall.

 

[crafftygrrl]

I have always been astounded by the fraud on ebay.

As I written before on other threads, I collect Hermes and consider myself to be knowledgeable. How I go about looking at ebay Hermes auctions is with the presumption that the goods are fake, and the listing needs to prove to me its real. There are VERY FEW dealers who know and sell the real McCoy.

Do you know that there are factories in China and Korea dedicated to manufacturing fake Birkins and Kellys. The bags come with Hermes boxes, ribbon, tissue and RECEIPTS!!!!

I have always wondered whether the Federal Trade Commission would become involved. Always have products sent through the U.S. Postal Service. That way, you have leverage with a potential fraudulent purchase. The sellers can be prosecuted for mail fraud. Also, try to pay via PayPal.

I really hope ebay changes its business model to combat this. Though looking at auctions for fakes can be entertaining, I sometimes think I should email the seller and write, "Who do you think your fooling with this cr*p!!!"

My favorite fraud stories....
I am selling this because I am getting a divorce, or my "friend" is getting a divorce. (Yet the bag was manufactured in the last year.)

My husband got this for me and it''s the wrong color.
Let me tell you, very few men would think to get on the waiting list (1-2 years) for a Birkin, and pay $6,500.00+ for a bag. Most men leave gifts for the wifey/girlfriend till the last minute and then panic.

Bad grammar/spelling is also a tip off.

 

[MissAva]

I don’t know...JK Rowling who writes the Harry Potter books has also been upset. People are forging her signature and selling other fake items of hers. She feels since most of her audience is children and young adults and she notifies eBay that they are fakes that the auctions ought to be removed. But they don’t.
The reason IMO is that eBay makes its money by listing things.....so if the seller has to try again it is fine with them they are making more money.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/29/2006 10:56:40 AM
Author: Matatora
I don''t know...JK Rowling who writes the Harry Potter books has also been upset. People are forging her signature and selling other fake items of hers. She feels since... she notifies eBay that they are fakes that the auctions ought to be removed. But they don''t.

The reason IMO is that eBay makes its money by listing things.....so if the seller has to try again it is fine with them they are making more money.

Yes. This is what the article alleges. eBay supposedly has claimed that when an individual buys a counterfeit item, that it need not respond to the consumer''s report. But it has claimed that when a company or someone who holds a trademark alleges that its goods are being counterfeited, that it will respond to it.

The catch is that eBay, allegedly, does NOT respond when a company (or an individual like Ms. Rowling) notifies it that its products are being sold fraudulently...because it wants the fees.


Deborah

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/29/2006 10:17:43 AM
Author: crafftygrrl
I have always been astounded by the fraud on ebay.

Though looking at auctions for fakes can be entertaining, I sometimes think I should email the seller and write, ''Who do you think your fooling with this cr*p!!!''

Bad grammar/spelling is also a tip off.

It''s not just ebay. It''s EVERYWHERE. It''s just that ebay is a very high profile venue. They will not change. It''s the nature of a second market. How many "tiffany studios" fakes are brought into Antique Roadshow. It always cracks me up that many of the people who bring in the fakes DON''T BELIEVE the Roadshow appraiser. This spurs on the fake market.

Precisely my point - the fakes are fairly easy to spot & if you don''t know what you are buying - don''t buy it. One goes into ebay knowing full well that ebay guarantees nothing. Yes, some of the stories are hysterical.

Unless you are buying from an established source, it''s always prudent to assume it''s not until proven it is real. Maybe I''m just jaded - but I''ve seen this sort of thing for decades at auction.

Here on PS, we encourage people to verify their diamonds with an independent appraiser. Why people go willy nilly blind into buying from ebay is beyond my comprehension? Ebay admits it''s not responsible. Sure, they want their fees - but their policy is clear - and a logistics nightmare to police. Hence, my stance on *buyer beware*.

I just don''t see why people are so up in arms about ebay. This is nothing knew under the sun regarding auctions. My favorite is "it''s got some age" - really what are you to assume from that. Nothing except it wasn''t being made as we speak.

Fraud and fakes aren''t good for the market on any level. But, on the flip side, I have seen "nice fellow ebayers" email bidders that an object is fake - when in fact it is not. This is a ploy to take out potential bidders. And, it happens in the secondary market outside of ebay.

Ebay is an auction. An auction is simply an item, of any kind, put up for sale that goes to the highest bidder. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[tanuki]

I the caveat emptor rule definitely applies to E- bay.

The first thing I would want to know about this woman complaining is did she pay the usual market price for the item?
Why would someone sell something of one value for not even close to what it is worth?

I don''t shop E-Bay but recently I decided I liked the Louis Vuitton denim monogram handbags after I walked past a display at a store. So I googled and found a few sellers. There was the bag on the real LV website for $1000. Here were site after site of people selling the "same thing" for a hundred bucks. Who in the world would think that they were getting the real thing?

This is why I haven''t ordered anything from E-bay that cost more than about 25 bucks.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I have used ebay a good deal to buy and sell educational books and materials, so there is no issue of getting anything fake. My husband actually bought a car from ebay a couple of years ago, and it was a great experience! I am very careful about looking at feedback. Withdrawn feedback is of concern, too. Even with fake padded positive feedback, you have to read the negative ones to see if there is a pattern of complaints. I do not think it is really ebay''s responsibility to police the sellers anymore than the newspaper classified ads do. I think the buyer must be careful, and I would be very hesitant to buy expensive jewelry on ebay. I did buy my mother a $150 bracelet for Christmas on ebay, and it was nice quality and a good buy. But that is the most expensive jewelry item I''d be willing to buy, probably.

 

[Mara]

Everyone knows that eBay has fakes on it, but I was shocked recently to discover that a popular clothing brand, Juicy Couture was hugely knocked off on eBay! I don't know why I was so surprised but I was. For example, JC sells a popular rabbit fur hooded jacket for something like $400 retail. It's being sold on eBay for about $99 and it turns out that the fur is CAT and DOG fur rather than rabbit, it is treated wrong, smells badly etc etc etc. People are asking 'whats wrong with my jacket' not even realizing that there is a huge trade in China in these types of fake items. They are also knocking off the track suits and JC purses etc.

I really want a Juicy scottie dog track suit but they are all basically fake on eBay! I haven't found one that I am 100% sure about yet. Even the ones purporting to sell authentic goods, it's very hard to tell...because Juicy changes it's tags, numbers, and little nuances on the tags and clothes from year to year, I have not had one year where even the fabric they use is consistent, so it's very hard to tell real from fake. There's even a list on iOffer about who sells real vs fakes and it's very inconsistent on what people think and why.

The shocking thing was that I was on iOffer the other day and there are people buying 50-100 of these track suits or cat fur jackets to go and re-sell on eBay or IN THEIR STORES...a few people say 'i have a retail store'...which is so sad because these fake suits and cat fur jackets and god only knows what else are being bought by people who are too stupid to know any better and are going to be sold at full retail price and people who are shopping will have no reason to think that it's fake! I mean I had no idea either until I found the eBay threads on fake Juicy. So if you are shopping OFFLINE now even some of these fakes will make their ways into stores. Pretty freaky and I will only now buy from retailers I know are authentic re-sellers unless I specifically want a fake.

Anyway...it just blows me away how many replicas and fakes there are out there of any given product in general. And how so many sellers don't even know what they are selling IS fake or they aren't SURE if they are, or are sure they are real but they are not. One gal said, well I took my tracksuit into a Harvey Nichols and they authenticated it and another gal said okay really well who did this? Some shopgirl cracking her gum and working for clothes money on the side? Is she really a JC expert? Did she just match the tags to theirs? If so, tags are easy to replicate and knock off. So it's just a minefield out there if even things like basic clothing are being knocked off...we're not even talking a $500 or $1000 purse here but a $88 pair of pants and an $88 jacket for the most part. Freaky!

ETA: That eBay is not the 'culprit' here as iOffer is doing the same thing in essence, bidding for lots or similar...so any site like this could be culpable but in reality they are just the medium for sales. If someone uses CraigsList to sell 50 fake bags, it's the same thing. You could take a classified ad out in a local paper to sell fake bags and they won't be held liable either. Or like F&I said, go to a local antique show or similar, if you buy something, the onus is on you the buyer to authenticate it and if you find out it's fake, would you sue the antique show owners or event promoters?

 

[MissAva]

I dont think Ebay ought to be held responsbile I just think they ought to remove sellers who are caught multiple times selling fake items.

 

[aphisiglovessae]

Date: 1/29/2006 10:56:40 AM
Author: Matatora
I don’t know...JK Rowling who writes the Harry Potter books has also been upset. People are forging her signature and selling other fake items of hers. She feels since most of her audience is children and young adults and she notifies eBay that they are fakes that the auctions ought to be removed. But they don’t.

The reason IMO is that eBay makes its money by listing things.....so if the seller has to try again it is fine with them they are making more money.

What I think is funny is the fact they will remove listing that use pictures from the manufacturer (i.e. Victoria's Secret and Fredrick's of Hollywood pics, etc.) because they are copyrighted, but they won't remove fakes of copyrighted items (i.e. books, dvds, cds, etc.). I had a listing removed once because I didn't have a camera and I was selling a victoria's secret item using a picture from their catalog.

However, if ebay does remove a listing, they refund your listing fees. They also record it so if it happens multiple times, they can revoke your membership.

ETA: I also think some of the buyers on ebay just don't have common sense. I once tried selling one of my fakies on ebay for 100 bucks. It was a 2 carat, 14 kt gold CZ solitaire. I had three people buy it and then try to take back their bids because they thought it was real (even though I clearly stated in the description that it was CZ and real gold). I had to report all three for nonpayment. I also emailed them telling them to use their common sense when purchasing items. A genuine 2 carat diamond would cost thousands of dollars! Why would I sell one for one 100 bucks? Idiots....

 

[codex57]

I don''t see how eBay is responsible. It is just a marketplace. There''s no way they can police it all.

 

[monarch64]

My dad and uncle are in business together selling sports memorabilia...they have an ebay site, I believe, but they offer letters of authenticity with every purchase. They have long-standing, established relationships with team managers so they are able to offer authentication for every piece. It''s so unfortunate that a few bad apples can generate negative attitudes towards purchasing online, but it comes with the territory, for sure. I think as a consumer, you have to assume some responsibility and educate yourself on any purchase you make that is not face-to-face. (That goes without saying on this forum, anyway!) Back in the day my dad and uncle did the majority of their business through mail-order and even then it was world-wide...they''ve had a successful business for over 15 years and still going strong.

 

[AGBF]

If you are interested in this subject, please be aware that another discussion about it is going on in Colored Gems.

Here is a link.

Colored Gems Discussion of eBay Practices

Deborah