See through corners on Emerald cut?

[snow12]

I've been searching for an emerald cut and I found one I really like but something seems funny - the corners are see through? is this normal or what would cause this? Is it just the camera? Should I stay away from this diamond?

 

[motownmama]

That's a pretty poor picture. Can you see it in person and return it if you don't like it? Can the seller take some better lit photos? Macro setting?

 

[snow12]

I have some more pictures - here they are! They aren't the best though.

 

[Karl_K]

I would pass on this one the pavilion is overly steep to save weight.

 

[shimmer]

I would pass on this one the pavilion is overly steep to save weight.

Karl, can you elaborate on how you can determine this based on these pictures?

I would imagine it is because against the black background you can see bands of black in the stone that indicate leakage? I am just looking at some emerald cuts in person and would like to learn as much as possible

Thanks!

 

[snow12]

I would pass on this one the pavilion is overly steep to save weight.

Karl, can you elaborate on how you can determine this based on these pictures?

I would imagine it is because against the black background you can see bands of black in the stone that indicate leakage? I am just looking at some emerald cuts in person and would like to learn as much as possible

Thanks!

Yes please! I thought that was happening but I'm no expert!

 

[Karl_K]

I would pass on this one the pavilion is overly steep to save weight.

Karl, can you elaborate on how you can determine this based on these pictures?

I would imagine it is because against the black background you can see bands of black in the stone that indicate leakage? I am just looking at some emerald cuts in person and would like to learn as much as possible

Thanks!

correct, lots of leakage very little light return.
If you don't want to take an aset scope with you take a small piece of bright red Mylar(from a balloon) and lay it down on the counter and hold the diamond over it.
Where you can see red through the diamond is leakage,, to much == bad.
I glued mine to a business card to make it easier to use.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Karl- I am interested in your thoughts on this one.
Can you tell it's small for it's weight from the photos alone?

I was looking at some stones this weekend and thought about the angles on the bottom.
Isn't it sometimes optically beneficial to alter the angles of the pavilion in ways that might also add weight?

ETA= we were posting at the same time.
If it's just leakage, why would we not see white when it's on a white background, where we see black in the photos taken on a black background.
I'm not saying the stone is a winner- but I am genuinely curious as to how you can make such judgments from these photos

 

[snow12]

I would pass on this one the pavilion is overly steep to save weight.

Karl, can you elaborate on how you can determine this based on these pictures?

I would imagine it is because against the black background you can see bands of black in the stone that indicate leakage? I am just looking at some emerald cuts in person and would like to learn as much as possible

Thanks!

correct, lots of leakage very little light return.
If you don't want to take an aset scope with you take a small piece of bright red Mylar(from a balloon) and lay it down on the counter and hold the diamond over it.
Where you can see red through the diamond is leakage,, to much == bad.
I glued mine to a business card to make it easier to use.

Thank you for the tip! I really appreciate it!

 

[Karl_K]

ETA= we were posting at the same time.
If it's just leakage, why would we not see white when it's on a white background, where we see black in the photos taken on a black background.
I'm not saying the stone is a winner- but I am genuinely curious as to how you can make such judgments from these photos

overly steep p1 angles cause the leakage/weak return on the outer edges.
The white background photos it is resting at an angle on the pavilion with high angle lighting and the person wearing a blue shirt.
This is deceptive if you don't know what to look for.
Taken like that the leakage will not show up white but kinda grey, if the background was red it would be much more obvious. This is because the leakage is rarely 100% strait front to back.

 

[Karl_K]

I have personally held in my hand an EC with 60% depth and reasonable spread that had overly deep p1s and very shallow p2 and p3. BLAH!!! Even the jeweler who wasn't very cut oriented declined to show it to his client.
He showed it to me and asked why it looked like that.
It was cut to hit 1ct. Cut right it would have been .95 or so.
Which is one of many reasons why you can not buy them using only numbers!!!!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Karl- I'm sure you know the names of different facets better than I- but if the break above the culet (P1) is at a less steep angle, it creates more space between a "center line, and the outer skin of the pavilion- AKA bulging pavilion- is it possible that such an angle can place the facets between the culet and the girdle at a better angle? Of course it would also save some weight- hence my question above about optical goals and weight retention.

With regard to the photos: Did the person change shirts between the two white photos?
Also, if leakage is not straight front to back, can light also come through the back of the diamond? Can that make an emerald cut more attractive to some?

Again- I'm not suggesting the stone is a winner- but the photos do not seem to show excessive weight, nor a negative leakage pattern.
I don't love the photos either btw, but if we're going to be critical, explaining the basis seems important.

 

[Karl_K]

Again- I'm not suggesting the stone is a winner- but the photos do not seem to show excessive weight, nor a negative leakage pattern.

Well you are entitled to your opinion and I mine.
I see a definite negative leakage pattern and it is caused by overly steep p1 angles.
As far as leakage goes in diamonds leakage or more accurately drawing light from the back of the stone instead of the front is often drawn from the opposite side of the diamond, not strait front to back.
Strait Front to back leakage like an open culet does is not the only type of leakage.

 

[Karl_K]

As an example the black pointed to by the red arrow could be(and likely is) a refection of the black on the side pointed to by the blue arrow back to the camera.

 

[snow12]

Karl- I'm sure you know the names of different facets better than I- but if the break above the culet (P1) is at a less steep angle, it creates more space between a "center line, and the outer skin of the pavilion- AKA bulging pavilion- is it possible that such an angle can place the facets between the culet and the girdle at a better angle? Of course it would also save some weight- hence my question above about optical goals and weight retention.

With regard to the photos: Did the person change shirts between the two white photos?
Also, if leakage is not straight front to back, can light also come through the back of the diamond? Can that make an emerald cut more attractive to some?

Again- I'm not suggesting the stone is a winner- but the photos do not seem to show excessive weight, nor a negative leakage pattern.
I don't love the photos either btw, but if we're going to be critical, explaining the basis seems important.

Yes - I requested photos then wanted more so they are photos from two different times so I'm sure he had two different shirts on!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Without a doubt there's some dark areas depicted in the photos.
I see what you're talking about with the arrows Karl- thank you.

As I mentioned a few times- I'm not saying the stone is a keeper by any means- but it did not look all that bad to me ostensibly.

For one thing, the shape is nice- the corners look good IMO

As far as the weight.....did we ever find out the measurements, and what it weighs?

 

[snow12]

Oh geesh - I can't believe I neglected putting the stats!

1.26 ct.
K color
VS2
7.93x5.49x3.19
Depth: 58%
Table: 62%

 

[Karl_K]

Oh geesh - I can't believe I neglected putting the stats!

1.26 ct.
K color
VS2
7.93x5.49x3.19
Depth: 58%
Table: 62%

The cutter tried to get the most from a shallow piece of rough and left to much on the P1's.
This is similar to the one I saw in person.
It is kinda sad really because there is a really nice 1.15-1.20ct diamond locked in a 1.26ct shell.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Karl- all due respect, but there's really no way to accurately judge this stone from these photos- especially if we're discussing "extra weight" and the term is being used in a derogatory manner.
Based on my experience, you'd need to physically examine the diamond to make categorical assessments of what the cutter was trying to achieve ( cut with a bias for weight retention)- and if he succeeded.

I think that to really serve consumers, we need to be careful about false negatives. I believe this is a good example. Nothing in the measurements suggests a "heavy" stone- or one that looks small for it's weight.

Of course you're free to disagree

 

[snow12]

Also, the inclusions on the diamond are on two of the corners, according to the GIA report. Two feathers and an indented natural.

Even if it ended up being a nice diamond in person, its a mind clean over eye clean kinda thing, IMO.

 

[Karl_K]

Well David I guess it is up to Snow12 and others reading this to decide who knows more about step cut design you or me.
I am not going to waste time and energy arguing with you about it.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Snow- to be clear, as a trade member I'm not allowed to comment specifically on a stone in a positive or negative sense.
But I do feel there are more general issues being raised here- that will apply to many others as well.
You mentioned imperfections- and surely, this is a personal issue.
I will say that the photos are clear enough to me to show that the imperfections in that given stone are not visible in the photos.
Now again, that might not be enough for some that simply want a cleaner diamond- and I'm not recommending you buy the diamond.
On the other hand, I don't think the experts on the board are doing consumers a favor by assuming negative facts not in evidence that may influence a buying decision.


ETA Karl-You certainly have designed more diamonds than I.
But isn't this about assessing and buying diamonds?

 

[snow12]

Rockdiamond- I appreciate all of your comments! I understand that you can't comment more than you already have. The stone is very clean just in my head, I think I would always worry about it if I were to purchase it.

I also don't feel comfortable buying the stone because I asked for images first, then after I asked for ASET images, and I ended up just getting more images of the diamond with a different colored background...

 

[Rockdiamond]

Rockdiamond- I appreciate all of your comments! I understand that you can't comment more than you already have. The stone is very clean just in my head, I think I would always worry about it if I were to purchase it.

I also don't feel comfortable buying the stone because I asked for images first, then after I asked for ASET images, and I ended up just getting more images of the diamond with a different colored background...

Snow- this is not surprising. In a best case scenario, the seller should explain the reason they do or do not use aset.
One big problem for those who wish to use it is that taking aset photos is difficult.
More prevalent is sellers who've got no idea what it is.
Reading aset is a subject unto itself- a common argument against aset is that regular photos are for easier for consumers to correlate to reality.
Having said all that, if you want aset photos, then find a seller who can give them to you.
I think its very important for consumers to have an enjoyable experience buying their diamond- so by all means, don't compromise on things that are important to you.

 

[Ella]

I apologize for the intrusion, but some posts have been removed from this thread because of policy violations created by a previously banned member.

Please remember that trade members may not comment directly on a stone being considered for purchase. If you wish to start a general discussion on angles, please create a new thread and keep the focus of this thread on helping the OP.

 

[TristanC]

I think it is unfortunate that the threads are being prematurely closed. Who was the previously banned member?

I was learning a lot from the discussion above, especially from what Karl was suggesting/explaining.

From what I saw, Karl was sticking to the OP questions and his explanations were leading up to optical properties of the EC in question.

Of course, I couldn't see the deleted threads. Wish everyone would play nice, so the rest of us can learn

 

[Ella]

Tristan, the thread has not been closed, just some posts on the thread have been removed. The user is someone who has alienated many members of this forum and was repeatedly unable to abide by our forum policies. Now this user keeps trying to come back under many different names each week. It is very rare that we ban someone, but we occasionally must ban individuals who are unable to abide by the policies after repeated warnings.

You are welcome to continue the discussion we just ask that trade members not comment on a stone under consideration as it is stated in our policies. This is to help keep the forum unbiased by preventing trade members from unfairly criticizing other vendors items or promoting their own items.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I think it is unfortunate that the threads are being prematurely closed. Who was the previously banned member?

I was learning a lot from the discussion above, especially from what Karl was suggesting/explaining.

From what I saw, Karl was sticking to the OP questions and his explanations were leading up to optical properties of the EC in question.

Of course, I couldn't see the deleted threads. Wish everyone would play nice, so the rest of us can learn

I agree Tristan. I don't believe the photos are conclusive, so using them to say a stone is not worth further consideration seems premature. Although I don't agree with Karl on this- I do believe that the subject is an important one for many readers- I do wish he'd come back to clarify his position. Many times it's airing of different ideas that are the most educational.
Tristan, did the photos look bad to you?