sapphires from walter arnstein?

[elmo]

All this sapphire discussion got me thinking about this

. A jeweler I''ve done a lot of business with has said they won''t source stones from Walter Arnstein. They didn''t come right out and say this but I believe it''s because they also sell directly to consumers. There are ways to make that work, and other ways where it may not. I like it that folks like Arnstein (and Pala) post pics and info, and may end up buying a stone from them. If you''re a pricescope vendor and still source from them, or if you''ve recently purchased one of their sapphires, please send me a pm.

 

[Georg]

Funny you say this,...
I have met Walter Arnstein and had the pooprtunity to inspect his goods last year in Tucson AGTA trade show,..
I must say that his goods are without a question mostly cream of the crop!,... They are however on expensive side ,...
I never understood how the guy can possibly sell wholesale ,.. They are hundreds of other NY dealers that can easily undersale him in a heart beat!,..
I think Walter calls him self Wholesaler but he really is a internet retailer. It is up to you to buy fro him or not,..
Guess what, chances are that most of fine colored gem dealers will sell to retail market and nobody has found out about them yet,...
What realy bothers me though,.. If you go to wholesale show in Tucson and you find possibly 50% of retail customers buying stuff at wholesale prices,.. This means huge loss to retailers!,..
George

 

[bar01]

I almost bought from them, but they did not have what I was looking for at the time. I did have a few conversations with Michael Arnstein. Very nice guy and was willing to provide some free assistance for me at one point.

As for PS vendors who have worked with them -

How about this post from Wink?

 

[windowshopper]

Michael is a saint and very honest--great stuff--not cheap but for cream of the crop you dotn necessarily have to try to undersell -

 

[Georg]

Window Shopper,

Elmos message was refering to braking wholesale / retail rules ,.. Generally if a dealer wants to sell wholesale he needs to sell to members of trade only,..
If he strarts selling to retail customers the wolesale side will drop him as a source for their business,...

As far as the cream of the crop and pricing goes ,.. Trust me , I know what I am talking about ,...

 

[elmo]

Date: 1/14/2005 3:19:48 PM
Author: Georg
I must say that his goods are without a question mostly cream of the crop!,... They are however on expensive side

Are you comparing with unheated goods that have an AGTA or AGL report, apples to apples so to speak? There''s quite a premium for unheated I thought, I''ve heard 30 percent and more depending on size and origin.

 

[Georg]

Yes ELMO,..
I am comparing apples to apples,... othervise I would be ashamed making such statement!,..

 

[anthropas]

Hi All,

I''m very new to this forum, but was planning on asking this exact same question. I''m looking for an sapphire engagment ring and so far Arnstein''s natural sapphire company is really the only vendor I''ve found that has a wide selection of unheated stones. I''m new to all of this, but I did e-mail Richard W. Hughes the other night (www.ruby-sapphire.com) and he said that he was good to work with and had a good reputation. That''s good enough for me I guess, but if you guys can show me where there are better certified unheated stones for lower prices, by all means. Cherry Picked lists almost everything as sold on their website and the very very few other places that sell unheated just don''t have impressive stones. But, like I said, I''m very new to this and would love to be corrected. As a rookie consumer, please give me and idea of where you more experienced folks would buy a certified unheated sapphire? So far it seems like Arnstein''s "good stuff" ranges between $1500-$2500/ct until you start getting fairly big. I was under the impression that this wasn''t unreasonable. Like I said, please point me in the right direction if I''m way off here.

Thanks!

Anthropas

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Date: 1/17/2005 6:30

4 PM
Author: anthropas
Hi All,

I'm very new to this forum, but was planning on asking this exact same question. I'm looking for an sapphire engagment ring and so far Arnstein's natural sapphire company is really the only vendor I've found that has a wide selection of unheated stones. I'm new to all of this, but I did e-mail Richard W. Hughes the other night (www.ruby-sapphire.com) and he said that he was good to work with and had a good reputation. That's good enough for me I guess, but if you guys can show me where there are better certified unheated stones for lower prices, by all means. Cherry Picked lists almost everything as sold on their website and the very very few other places that sell unheated just don't have impressive stones. But, like I said, I'm very new to this and would love to be corrected. As a rookie consumer, please give me and idea of where you more experienced folks would buy a certified unheated sapphire? So far it seems like Arnstein's 'good stuff' ranges between $1500-$2500/ct until you start getting fairly big. I was under the impression that this wasn't unreasonable. Like I said, please point me in the right direction if I'm way off here.

Thanks!

Anthropas

Hey Anthropas:

There are many vendors or brokers who can meet or beat prices and service selling colored stones. You have to look at what you are paying for and realize most of these vendors who deal in gemstones, especially "naturals" don't have websites to move their goods.

Richard Orbach at Cherrypicked has excellent service. You should also know these vendors who have their stones marked as sold on their site usually have a much broader variety of inventory in stock, it is just not posted on their site, and if they don't have what your looking for they can get it.

Richard Hughes at Palagems probably has one of the most extensive inventory of gems listed on-line compared to other vendors and also has top-notch service.

Walter Arnstein has a great selection of stones which have been described as a little high on the retail end, but where else on-line can you find a vendor or broker who deals in such a large inventory of certified "natural" stones? It's a level of service and a level of what a vendor specializes in which can be the deciding factor when making a purchase.

There are also vendors you can work with here if you are not in a big hurry which can find you the finest gems available at the Gem show in Tucson in February which will save you some money, but the most important issue is the broad selection of stones available there.

You have many options and your expectations should be a great level of service with a large selection of what your looking for. There are repuatable brokers who also network with other brokers which might have a greater selection to certain goods your looking for with a little less overhead than the typical retail internet site. Garry Dutton comes to mind and is someone I have worked with in the past and have been very happy with. I think Gary will be going to Tucson in February along with Wink Jones, and many of the other trade professionals which frequent this forum so your options are limitless. Establish what your looking for 1st and find a reputable vendor. You will find what your looking for...

 

[anthropas]

Thanks for the detailed response Josh. I like the idea of working with a vendor to find something at the Tuscon show, but I was under the impression that this show was for Vendor''s only. So that means that I''d have to describe what I''m looking for to a vendor and have them pick it up for me at the Tuscon show for whosale and essentially pay them a "finder''s fee" right? That sounds like a good idea if the savings were big enough, but what happens if the vendor chooses a stone I don''t like? Who get''s stuck with the stone/bill? Also, I''ll take your advice on getting in touch with the folks at Cherry Picked and see if they have more stones available than listed on their site.

If you could help me a little more, can you describe the process of finding a vendor for me? Are you talking about someone who owns a retail store? I''m assuming a vendor from your description is essentially a middle man who has access to loose stones at wholesale prices? Everyone I''ve talked to in my hometown of Pasadena, CA tells me "they can get stones" but don''t carry them on hand. All except for one gentlemen who said he carried loose sapphires and he did. But they were between $11K and $28K. His smallest was a very nice looking 1.25 oval cut that was heated and uncertified for $3200. That''s $2500/ct. for heated! He wouldn''t budge on the price either.

Maybe it would be best to describe what I''m looking for and you can point me in the right direction. I''m looking for a 1.0-1.5 Cushion Cut natural, unheated sapphire, of high clarity, good tone and saturation, good symetry, "medium" blue in color, and is preferably AGTA certified. Here''s an example. http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/products1.asp?page=8&color=Blue&code=&selSort=3# The second stone down on this page is the best example of what I''m looking for so far. It''s also been one of the most expensive /ct. stones I''ve seen. But it''s in my price range and is my current "benchmark" stone. If someone can do better for less, I''ve got money to send your way

Hope that helps explain what I''m looking for and why I''m interested in Walter Arnstein''s site. Now if someone goes off and buy''s this stone on me, I''m gonna be mad! Heh, thanks again for the help! It really is appreciated!

Anthropas

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Date: 1/17/2005 8

0:51 PM
Author: anthropas
Thanks for the detailed response Josh. I like the idea of working with a vendor to find something at the Tuscon show, but I was under the impression that this show was for Vendor''s only. So that means that I''d have to describe what I''m looking for to a vendor and have them pick it up for me at the Tuscon show for whosale and essentially pay them a ''finder''s fee'' right? That sounds like a good idea if the savings were big enough, but what happens if the vendor chooses a stone I don''t like? Who get''s stuck with the stone/bill? Also, I''ll take your advice on getting in touch with the folks at Cherry Picked and see if they have more stones available than listed on their site.

If you could help me a little more, can you describe the process of finding a vendor for me? Are you talking about someone who owns a retail store? I''m assuming a vendor from your description is essentially a middle man who has access to loose stones at wholesale prices? Everyone I''ve talked to in my hometown of Pasadena, CA tells me ''they can get stones'' but don''t carry them on hand. All except for one gentlemen who said he carried loose sapphires and he did. But they were between $11K and $28K. His smallest was a very nice looking 1.25 oval cut that was heated and uncertified for $3200. That''s $2500/ct. for heated! He wouldn''t budge on the price either.

Maybe it would be best to describe what I''m looking for and you can point me in the right direction. I''m looking for a 1.0-1.5 Cushion Cut natural, unheated sapphire, of high clarity, good tone and saturation, good symetry, ''medium'' blue in color, and is preferably AGTA certified. Here''s an example. http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/products1.asp?page=8&color=Blue&code=&selSort=3# The second stone down on this page is the best example of what I''m looking for so far. It''s also been one of the most expensive /ct. stones I''ve seen. But it''s in my price range and is my current ''benchmark'' stone. If someone can do better for less, I''ve got money to send your way

Hope that helps explain what I''m looking for and why I''m interested in Walter Arnstein''s site. Now if someone goes off and buy''s this stone on me, I''m gonna be mad! Heh, thanks again for the help! It really is appreciated!

Anthropas

Well 1st the show is for everyone. 2 an option might be to have a vendor hold a stone contact you and describe the details. This is a little leg work , but the biggest thing your going to be dealing with is the budget you have to work with. You can get a very nice unheated burma stone in the 3-4k range. Last year Richard Orbach sourced a round 1 ct unheated burma stone for be which was beautiful. A soft velvety blue in a round shape which carries a premium. It was mounted in a ring, but he agreed to sell it to me lose. This was around $3200.00. So he does have a larger selection.

Since you have the time i would seriously have you consider having a vendor shop for you at the show since it is not far off. Because of all the buzz surrounding treatment of sapphires, "naturals are very hot right now, but you can still find a beautiful stone in your price range. Quality is the most important thing and name alone seems to carry a premium. For instance, even though a large portion of the finest stones from the Madagascar region have been dug up there should be a selection of unheated stones which don''t carry the premium attached to the Burma or Ceylon names.

Personally I would go with Garry Dutton, Wink Jones, or any other reputable vendor. I have also worked with Richard Homer, but this was on the premis he would source a stone and then cut it for me. With your budget i really don''t see you not getting what you want. There are some of the finest stones out there that fit your budget.

A vendor is a middleman. A trusted vendor will be "your eyes" at the show, and after talking with a vendor they can get an idea of what your looking for. If you find a vendor that stocks gems "in house" you can have them send them to you to take a peek at.

Since the shows so close, I would get a hold of a vendor and let them do the shopping so you can stretch your budget and not sacrifice quality without getting bulldozed on the high end retail side.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/18/2005 12:20:18 AM
Author: Georg

Ebay is a great place to check out I often see true wholesale or better prices there!
Also It does make a sence to buy good unheated medium dark pure blue over one carat weight only . Don't waste your money on stones of exotic origins even with certifficate there are plentyful and cheap!

Hei! That one nice shop... and there are more of the like with the ocasional bargain as you say. Just few and far between.

Thanks for the link

Have you tried out these guys ?

Walter Arnstein has an Ebay portal too, btw. - this

 

[elmo]

Date: 1/18/2005 12:20:18 AM
Author: Georg
Since you are not a jeweler and Arnstein can possibly give you way better deal than any jeweler would for compareable quality why not buy from him?

No matter what you do I still urge you to be careful. Why? if you think that unheated sapphires are the answer to ultimate sapphire, it would be naive!

I can think if a many good reasons to buy from my jeweler rather than directly from a supplier. If I buy a killer 5 carat blue sapphire, chances are I won''t be looking for another sapphire for the next several years. The sapphire specialist can only help me with the one purchase, whereas my jeweler can help with many different things. If my jeweler can broker a stone and make a few thousand dollars on the sale for the same cost to me, it''s a win-win for everyone.

Excellent point about balancing how things look with lack of treatments. I thought I remembered a seller griping that customers expected unheated rubies to have the same look as the heavily treated ones and ended up disappointed. With more emphasis placed on untreated goods and higher prices, folks will be selling some less than spectacular stones.

 

[Georg]

Elmo,
This is very true!... If you buy once in a lifetime, It is much more convenient to buy from your jeweler. If you know a good one that is,...
But don''t expect much from most of them !...
The question is not about letting anyone make few thousend extra , but will you get what you like or will you get your moneys worth ? You know buying colored gems is not like buying diamonds there are huge differences in quality,.. Chances are most jewelers haven''t even seen a good sapphire or ruby in their lifetime,... As a proof here is a true story,.. . My Buddy who runs a Gem Lab in my area received a ring for appraisal made by well known jeweler, submited by it''s new ownerf or appraisal ( no need for names to be published) . The ring was made of platinum containing approx 3 carat Blue sapphire and it was sold as natural heat treated Blue Ceylon sapphire The retail cost was outrageous ,.. but that is not the point here , the lab found out the gem was lab created,.. Good show ha? Well everyone was shocked and the money was refunded withy apology,... But this tells you that buying colored gems today is not so easy . Even jeweler with reputation can be fooled by today''s fakes and or all kinds of ilegal treatments that are comon in todays industry . It does require equipment and education to be able to do this. If your jeweler is a gemologist or dealer , chances are that they don''t get fooled as easy,..
Plus I don''t know why you can''t understand, but talking about Arnstein ,.. to me he is not realy but he is a retail jeweler who specializes in quality sapphire. If I was you I would trust him without hesitation
a lot more than any jeweler that has seen a good stone possibly once in a blue moon!,.. In my opinion arnstein is exactly a peson who you should be buying from . why? because he makes his inventory available to retail customers . now I understand why your jeweler will not source from him. Because Arnsteins prices are too high for him to make the extra few thousend! You may realy want to investigate who is trying to fool you!,..
You know, if you go to the largest gem trade show in Tucson , and are very much experienced buyer you will see thousend of gem dealers selling what appears to be a "beutiful gems"
Well after you have taken a closer look,... you will know you need to be an expert to be able to make the right purchases. If you are an expert ,You will find the good and the bad and beelieve me if you are trully looking for a quality goods you will find out that there is only a hundred dealers from the tousends to consider to buy from and Walter Arnstein is definitely one of them !,.. But jewelers will hesitate to buy from him because his pricing does not allow them to make their usual profit!

 

[pricescope]

Georg, I''m afraid you''re are posting pictures and link to your Ebay auctions without even proper disclosure....

 

[elmo]

Date: 1/20/2005 2:10:58 PM
Author: leonid
Georg, I''m afraid you''re are posting pictures and link to your Ebay auctions without even proper disclosure....

I thought I smelled something fishy, "ebay is a great place ..." in all seriousness even.

 

[innerkitten]

I don''t see a link. Was it removed?