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Ruby vs Spinel - Your expert opinions please

Seaglow

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When I say highly transparent, this is the standard I have. You can see the reflection of the grooves of the tweezers in the stone and it has a ‘crisp’ feel to it. I know pigeon’s blood has a bad rap but this is a GRS pigeon’s blood. Most pigeon’s blood are darker than this. I took a photo with a LED lamp from afar, then drew the light closer. It’s a very bright red up close.

401E9828-3ED6-4106-9EE3-4C608A75DA20.jpeg 3B945967-355C-4872-B309-B6C22D6CA981.jpeg 6802F3E0-08D2-4AD8-9203-9C2DEC4640B1.jpeg
 

leukolenos

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When I say highly transparent, this is the standard I have. You can see the reflection of the grooves of the tweezers in the stone and it has a ‘crisp’ feel to it. I know pigeon’s blood has a bad rap but this is a GRS pigeon’s blood. Most pigeon’s blood are darker than this. I took a photo with a LED lamp from afar, then drew the light closer. It’s a very bright red up close.

401E9828-3ED6-4106-9EE3-4C608A75DA20.jpeg 3B945967-355C-4872-B309-B6C22D6CA981.jpeg 6802F3E0-08D2-4AD8-9203-9C2DEC4640B1.jpeg
Beautiful stone!
 

Miki Moto

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@qubitasaurus Hi! Thank you so much for this info. I went to IvyNewYork and sent Vlad a note. Although his website implies NY, I tried to contact him today by phone (no phone info was listed), but it seems he is based in Hong Kong. I sent him an email. And wow... I did not know this was the same Vlad who wrote Terra Spinel... a book I am eyeing but it's at the bargain price of $1,000.00! I hear it's a great book though for spinels (but for rubies, it would still be the Richard Hughes Ruby & Sapphire book).

If you can find the Justin cutter thread, I would love to read about. Thank you very much! I'll let you know what Vlad comes back with!
 

Miki Moto

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The discusion about secondary colours is very eye opening (highlights the subtitles in buying expensive rubies)

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/winza-vs-burma-ruby-pricing.187509/

This was a great read in many aspects! I realize I now like a drop of orange (which is really yellow in my simple red/yellow/blue mind). I also do not like any pink or purple in a ruby as I think rubies should be true red. This thread also made me smile as I just sent in a loose Colombian emerald (5.48ct) to AGL and it came back graded by Chris. I didn't even bother to look who graded it until I saw the thread and referenced a Chris at AGL.

Wonderful thread! Thank you. That helped me a lot...so maybe the price will be better and not $100K!
 

qubitasaurus

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Starfacet

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I got a better photo of my beloved little oval spinel, taken outdoors. This is how I usually wear it. It's definitely not a "fine"stone, but I still love it!
This thread has been fun to read. I can't wait to see these beautiful rubies once you receive them!!!
0329181015c.jpg
 

Miki Moto

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I got a better photo of my beloved little oval spinel, taken outdoors. This is how I usually wear it. It's definitely not a "fine"stone, but I still love it!
This thread has been fun to read. I can't wait to see these beautiful rubies once you receive them!!!
0329181015c.jpg

Your spinel is lovely and the setting is so unique! Spinels seem to have more the "red" I am looking for. The more spinels I see in real photos, they are growing on me.
 

Starfacet

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I keep talking about my perfect red, and here is my wish... a red Burmese ruby like this. This is my red, with the drop of orange!
upload_2018-3-29_12-30-8.png
:kiss2::love:
 

Arcadian

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this is my spinel (well ok there's 2 :lol: but you probably know which one I'm talking about)


Its hard to convince folks that every red stone is NOT a damn ruby....lol I recall when I had it set, the jeweler I took it to was mighty surprised it wasn't a ruby!

The spinel in question below is a bit less than 3cts and from the same area that those lovely hot pink mehenges came from. I think they produced pinks and reds. Its very silky (which I love but might be too much for some folks) but when that sun is out.... "BAM!" looks lit from within. And its great looking in clubs!!! (Though down here "clubbing" is relative. I went to a restaurant that was pretty much like a club with all the black lights everywhere)

These are older pics but all of these are in natural light situations, no high sunlight and of course the much necessary black light pic! Its hard for me to capture in lot of sunlight and makes my sensor go crazy. And the gem brief from AGL just said "red" for color.

Rubies and spinel don't exactly look alike, at least not to me. You have to decide what you really want. If you want a ruby and thats what scratches the itch, then stick with that. Don't get a spinel thinking it will do that for you even though you can get some down right lovely ones!


soup8.jpg red11.jpg red15.jpg fluor111.jpg
 

Miki Moto

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I have ruby pricing from Vlad! All you ruby experts out there, bring out your loupes!
I emailed Vlad's website IvyNewYork and asked for pricing on several large stones as he already lists pricing for smaller stones. I also asked if he had a showroom somewhere in the U.S. and I would fly out to see them. Well, they have moved out of NY and there is now only one showroom in Hong Kong. He did send me pricing for three rubies I was interested in.

Okay... for the experts, this will be a bit of fun for you to guess at how much each stone is.
First, to start, I like the red in this stone, but it is too small for me (I had a 2.01 ct and it was too small). But... notice the bargain price of $3.9K.
https://ivynewyork.com/collections/ruby-1/products/ruby-no-heat-1-40-cts

Now on to the big boys... I asked about these three stones. Color-wise, the last one (5.25ct) is my favorite but it still is not "my" red as I posted above. I wanted to check on pricing though to get an idea as I thought I could get a 5.25ct if pricing was good. As you click through each stone, put a price on the stone (I post the price a little later, but no reading ahead!)
https://ivynewyork.com/collections/ruby-1/products/vivid-red-ruby-no-heat-5-23-ct

https://ivynewyork.com/collections/ruby-1/products/pigeon-blood-ruby-no-heat-5-17-ct

https://ivynewyork.com/collections/ruby-1/products/vivid-red-ruby-no-heat-5-25-ct

Now on to pricing... I was thinking... well heck... the 1.4ct ruby above is only $3.9K, I have a 6.05ct Ceylon sapphire (12x10) and I like the size, so why not a 5ct ruby. And even if it's $25K, maybe I will splurge a bit. And here we go... the prices for the three stones above.
Pigeon's Blood Ruby No Heat 5.23 cts price $460,240
Pigeon's Blood Ruby No Heat 5.17 cts Price $496,320
Pigeon's Blood Ruby No Heat 5.25 cts price $73,640

OMG!!!... @Seaglow @leukolenos and others who have said it would be pricey... you are not kidding!!!

Of course these all are out of my price point, but I am actually quite surprised the 5.25ct is only $73K compared to the 5.23ct and 5.17ct which are both over $450K. That is a huge difference. Maybe it's because of that drop of orange that makes it a lower price point.

Well, I'm wiped from online ruby shopping and I'm not really sure the color on my screen is the actual stone. I think I will wait and go to the Tucson show next year.
And @Arcadian I think I'm beginning to agree spinels may be the way to go. Yours is lovely.

Anyway, I thought I would share this with everyone. Hope you enjoyed reading this.
 
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Starfacet

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I have ruby pricing from Vlad! All you ruby experts out there, bring out your loupes!
I emailed Vlad's website IvyNewYork and asked for pricing on several large stones as he already lists pricing for smaller stones. I also asked if he had a showroom somewhere in the U.S. and I would fly out to see them. Well, they have moved out of NY and there is now only one showroom in Hong Kong. He did send me pricing for three rubies I was interested in.

Okay... for the experts, this will be a bit of fun for you to guess at how much each stone is.
First, to start, I like the red in this stone, but it is too small for me (I had a 2.01 ct and it was too small). But... notice the bargain price of $3.9K.
https://ivynewyork.com/collections/ruby-1/products/ruby-no-heat-1-40-cts

Now on to the big boys... I asked about these three stones. Color-wise, the last one (5.25ct) is my favorite but it still is not "my" red as I posted above. I wanted to check on pricing though to get an idea as I thought I could get a 5.25ct if pricing was good. As you click through each stone, put a price on the stone (I post the price a little later, but no reading ahead!)
https://ivynewyork.com/collections/ruby-1/products/vivid-red-ruby-no-heat-5-23-ct

https://ivynewyork.com/collections/ruby-1/products/pigeon-blood-ruby-no-heat-5-17-ct

https://ivynewyork.com/collections/ruby-1/products/vivid-red-ruby-no-heat-5-25-ct

Now on to pricing... I was thinking... well heck... the 1.4ct ruby above is only $3.9K, I have a 6.05ct Ceylon sapphire (12x10) and I like the size, so why not a 5ct ruby. And even if it's $25K, maybe I will splurge a bit. And here we go... the prices for the three stones above.
Pigeon's Blood Ruby No Heat 5.23 cts price $460,240
Pigeon's Blood Ruby No Heat 5.17 cts Price $496,320
Pigeon's Blood Ruby No Heat 5.25 cts price $73,640

OMG!!!... @Seaglow @leukolenos and others who have said it would be pricey... you are not kidding!!!

Of course these all are out of my price point, but I am actually quite surprised the 5.25ct is only $73K compared to the 5.23ct and 5.17ct which are both over $450K. That is a huge difference. Maybe it's because of that drop of orange that makes it a lower price point.

Well, I'm wiped from online ruby shopping and I'm not really sure the color on my screen is the actual stone. I think I will wait and go to the Tucson show next year.
And @Arcadian I think I'm beginning to agree spinels may be the way to go. Yours is lovely.

Anyway, I thought I would share this with everyone. Hope you enjoyed reading this.
@leukolenos knows her stuff! I like the 5.23. Too bad its worth more than my house!!! :lol:
 

leukolenos

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Now on to pricing... I was thinking... well heck... the 1.4ct ruby above is only $3.9K, I have a 6.05ct Ceylon sapphire (12x10) and I like the size, so why not a 5ct ruby. And even if it's $25K, maybe I will splurge a bit. And here we go... the prices for the three stones above.
Pigeon's Blood Ruby No Heat 5.23 cts price $460,240
Pigeon's Blood Ruby No Heat 5.17 cts Price $496,320
Pigeon's Blood Ruby No Heat 5.25 cts price $73,640

OMG!!!... @Seaglow @leukolenos and others who have said it would be pricey... you are not kidding!

Solidarity, girlfriend. Ruby shopping is ROUGH.
I think waiting for Tucson is a great idea though. That will give you a good deal of time to shop around and hone your palate so to speak. Plus you are right that your monitor may not be showing you the whole story. There have been stones that I loved in photos and video, but then saw it on the hand or in different lighting it was super disappointing.
 

Cockatiel

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this is my spinel (well ok there's 2 :lol: but you probably know which one I'm talking about)


Its hard to convince folks that every red stone is NOT a damn ruby....lol I recall when I had it set, the jeweler I took it to was mighty surprised it wasn't a ruby!

The spinel in question below is a bit less than 3cts and from the same area that those lovely hot pink mehenges came from. I think they produced pinks and reds. Its very silky (which I love but might be too much for some folks) but when that sun is out.... "BAM!" looks lit from within. And its great looking in clubs!!! (Though down here "clubbing" is relative. I went to a restaurant that was pretty much like a club with all the black lights everywhere)

These are older pics but all of these are in natural light situations, no high sunlight and of course the much necessary black light pic! Its hard for me to capture in lot of sunlight and makes my sensor go crazy. And the gem brief from AGL just said "red" for color.

Rubies and spinel don't exactly look alike, at least not to me. You have to decide what you really want. If you want a ruby and thats what scratches the itch, then stick with that. Don't get a spinel thinking it will do that for you even though you can get some down right lovely ones!


soup8.jpg red11.jpg red15.jpg fluor111.jpg

Not to threadjack, but @Arcadian, I have a sister stone to your red mahenge. Some old pics I found

image.jpg
image.jpg

Mine is also orangish, and quite silky. It's impossible for this stone to go dark! I think spinels do orangey red very well. I love the color red but don't care for red stones (if that makes sense?) and this is the only red stone I ended up keeping over the years. I prefer orange in red spinels but not in rubies. I've been looking for a ruby with a bit of blue for years but ruby shopping is very hard....No luck yet for me.
 

qubitasaurus

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I guess we knew it wasn't going to be easy, but I am a still a bit surprised it was that hard. I agree shopping at Tucson where you can see them in person and maybe a vendor who can help source the stone will be present, would be the best approach.
 

arkieb1

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I have both, some of the truly neon "Jedi" and red Mahenges are far rarer (particularly clean ones in larger sizes) IMHO than rubies are. I was given a pigeon's blood (marketing term because it can encompass a range of colours) ruby by my husband that my MIL picked out, many years ago. It's set in a bezel and it's blaaah I never wear it because it's way too dark for my taste and unless you are in really great lighting or sunlight that is the only time you get beautiful flashes of red.

I agree with the others just find something in a colour you love provided it's not filled with glass or heavily treated colour is king. Pics - Burmese red "Jedi" and the bigger oval is a fire engine red Mahenge. Trays of spinels. I have more rubies but don't have many pics of them, below is a pair of red glowy heat only Burmese rubies and a black spinel.

Red spinels 1.JPG Spinels 1.JPG IMG_7516.JPG
 

Starfacet

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I have both, some of the truly neon "Jedi" and red Mahenges are far rarer (particularly clean ones in larger sizes) IMHO than rubies are. I was given a pigeon's blood (marketing term because it can encompass a range of colours) ruby by my husband that my MIL picked out, many years ago. It's set in a bezel and it's blaaah I never wear it because it's way too dark for my taste and unless you are in really great lighting or sunlight that is the only time you get beautiful flashes of red.

I agree with the others just find something in a colour you love provided it's not filled with glass or heavily treated colour is king. Pics - Burmese red "Jedi" and the bigger oval is a fire engine red Mahenge. Trays of spinels. I have more rubies but don't have many pics of them, below is a pair of red glowy heat only Burmese rubies and a black spinel.

Red spinels 1.JPG Spinels 1.JPG IMG_7516.JPG
Amazing eye candy!!!
 

T L

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There is nothing like the finest rubies in the world, but there are prohibitively rare and expensive, and then there's treatment to think about. The term "pigeon blood" is an overly used and abused metaphor that I would ignore when looking for rubies. Red jedi or pinkish red spinels, are a nice and much more affordable option, even though some of the prices are getting up there. When you compare the price of a top-quality pinkish red spinel to a top-quality untreated ruby the same size, the spinel is a bargain, even though that "bargain " may be many thousands of dollars.
 

prs

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When we were shopping for a pear sapphire I admired the ruby rings one vendor had in their display case. She pulled out four of the rings and said two of these are ruby and two are rubellite; can you tell which is which? We had never heard of rubellite and needless to say we guessed wrong. The rubellites looked as good as, if not better than the rubies, at a fraction of the price.

This discussion has been all about spinel vs ruby, but would rubellite be another option?
 

T L

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When we were shopping for a pear sapphire I admired the ruby rings one vendor had in their display case. She pulled out four of the rings and said two of these are ruby and two are rubellite; can you tell which is which? We had never heard of rubellite and needless to say we guessed wrong. The rubellites looked as good as, if not better than the rubies, at a fraction of the price.

This discussion has been all about spinel vs ruby, but would rubellite be another option?
Rubellite can be irradiated, so make sure you know your vendor well, since irradiated stones are not detected as far as I know. Tourmaline in general is much less durable than either corundum or spinel. They also do not have red fluorescence in the sun, which gives most rubies and reddish spinels an especially beautiful glow outside. However a fine pink or red tourmaline can be very beautiful. I just wanted to provide words of caution when considering a red tourmaline or rubellite.
 

Miki Moto

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Hi @arkieb1 thanks for the photos... wow, you have so many nice stones!

The more I see spinels, the more I think I may need to go that rout especially given the price of a ruby. @prs I don’t think I can go for Rubellite. I am still hung up on a pure ruby vs even a spinel. I’m a purist and to me, a red stone has to be a ruby.... just like a green stone has to be a Colombian emerald. Sigh.

Those red Jedi spinel though are very nice. And @TL given your insight on spinels, I may have to really think about a spinel vs. ruby.

I have been reading more about spinels now, and can anyone please share your thoughts on the single vs double refractiveness of a spinel vs ruby? Is it better to be singly refractive or not? And for a spinel, does they mean all I see is the one hue and is that good or bad? And for ruby, is the doubly refractive what makes it glow? Any insight would be great.

Now I can’t wait to go to a gem show and look at the two stones.
 

arkieb1

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@Miki Moto - to answer your question below is a great link and I will cut and paste some of the main points from it;
"Spinel is composed of magnesium aluminate, and colored by chromium and iron. It is quite hard (8 on the Mohs scale), and it forms as cubic crystals like diamond. Spinel occurs in octahedral crystals, and has a complete absence of cleavage (unlike diamond). Due to spinel's excellent dispersion, spinel gemtones can possess vivid fire. The intensity of color is partly due to the fact that spinel is singly refractive. Most gemstones are doubly refractive. The best-known singly refractive gems are diamond, spinel and garnet."

"So what is the great secret of spinel? The answer is that spinel is in many respects the equal of ruby and sapphire. Though ruby is slightly harder (9 on the Mohs scale), spinel contains fewer inclusions than ruby, and spinel has greater fire and brilliance. Spinel is never heated nor treated in any way; indeed, there is no known treatment for improving the color or clarity of spinel. Conversely, virtually every affordable ruby is treated in some way these days. Also, since spinel is singly refractive and ruby is doubly refractive, the primary color in red spinel appears purer and more intense than the red seen in many rubies. Yet, spinel is typically purchased for 20-50% the price of ruby. That makes spinel tremendous value on a market where prices for fine gems are rising every year."

https://www.gemselect.com/other-info/spinel-gems.php

I would add to this these days spinel has greatly risen in price and spinel now days is also treated, but it is still a more affordable option than the best coloured rubies. I find well cut pure red spinels and indeed many native cut ones "brighter" than most of the rubies I own in most lighting situations.
 
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Nosean

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@Miki Moto

Birefringence is not responsible for the glow of a gem.

In gemstone with a very high RI i is a problem course the stones look hazy - you know this from Zircon or Titanite/Sphen..

A similar colored Sphalerite ( cubic so single refractive) compared to a titanite ( and this haziness depend on the orientation of the rough too) looks sharp - no doubling of the pavillion facets.

In single refractive gems the is the same color in each direction.

But...

A high birefringence does not automatically mean that the color diffrence is "high" or better strong too.

Iolite for example has a low birefringence ( 0,007) but has a strong pleochrocism ( 3 colors). Titanite high birefringence but much lower pleochroism.

---

Spinel WAS the little cousin of corundum ( ruby and all the sapphire colors) course only two sources were important looking at rhe last 100 years.

Sri Lanka with many but mostly desaturated colors compared to corundum. Cheap, pretty but not spectacular. Only a few vivid colors like some pink or cobalt blue - really rare.

Burma produced very fine red and pinkish red. But at this time rare and small.

But then at the end of 20th/ beginning of the 21th century so many new sources were found with incredible colors

Madagascar and Tanzania with purer pink and blues....

Mahenge with fantastic qualities in red to pink color range in vivid to neon...

Man Sin and Namya in Burma - "jedi" spinel!!

Vietnam ( Luc Yen ) with fine unseen before color range - glowing flame spinel, pastel colors and fine cobalt spinel or red stones.

Now spinel is equal to ruby or sapphire - in some colors much more expensive.
---

I noticed that many vendors now offer their red and pink spinel with pics showing the LW UV. Forget it - there is no fine red or pink red spinel without strong LW UV.

This is a flame spinel from Lang Chap in reddishorange and a very fine red burmese spinel.

The Lang Chap has a high Vanadium content and chromium
The burmese stone high chromium

Both have a very strong red fluor in LW UV. In the pic unfortunately orange...





IMG_1856.JPG IMG_1855.JPG
 

Bron357

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I think you’re going to have to make some choices.
Do you want a ruby?
Do you want a 5 carat Gem?
Do you want your fire engine red ?
Do you want unheated and good clarity?
As your investigation has revealed, all that in a ruby and it’s $$$$$$.
Me, I like size and I like colour, so I’d choose to go with the right size and colour Spinel rather than compromise and have a much smaller ruby.
 

Seaglow

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@Miki Moto, if you don’t mind, please post a photo of your pigeon’s blood ruby ring. :)

Also you might want to search for Tanzanian rubies. Many tend to go on the orange side. :)
 

Miki Moto

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Hi @arkieb1 and @Nosean Wow... thank you so much for those explanations. They were great. Your spinel photos are making me open my eyes to spinels. I had really dismissed them before as in my mind, they are a lesser stone and not the "precious color gemstone trinity" which is really my interest area.

@Seaglow I sold my ruby riing two years ago. I sold/consigned it to a company called Gray & Sons. I then noticed they listed it for sale for a much greater amount than what I was given. Had I discovered PS earlier, I think I would have taken it out of it's setting and tried to sell it loose on PS as it was certified and I had the papers. Live and learn, but I was just so happy to get rid of that ugly dark stone. It just disappointed me to even look at it in my jewelry box, so out it went!

@Bron357 I have been asking myself the same question during my web surfing.

So.. my criteria, and I hope when I go to the gem show. this will work out as pricing seems to be all over the place on the web. I have seen two rubies (or spinel) similar size, clarity, color yet one will be listed for $500.00 and another for $20K so I think I'm not wise enough to shop online.

My criteria:
- Above all else, I want a true red stone (no blue or purple)
- Good clarity
- Heat treated is ok as I have concluded a non-heated ruby the size I want is out of my price point
- If ruby - Burma or maybe Mozambique (but no Thai or other country)
- If spinel - Jedi (does region matter here? Namya? Mogok? From what I have googled, Mogok seems better?)
- Minimum size 10mmx8mm, preferred 10mmx10mm or 12mmx10mm (carat weight will depend on the cut and actual stone since ruby vs spinel specific gravity is different so I listed dimensions here for clarity... this is maybe the 4ct range?)
- Does not have to be precision cut. I actually think I prefer the softer color and glow of native cut as precision cuts make a stone look harsh and almost "zircon fake" (like the cutter is trying to make the stone sparkle like a diamond)... it's hard for me to explain... does that make sense? I am more about color and less about cut. Am I wrong? Is precision cut for colored gemstones the future? For example, I do not like the Portugese cut; there is too much going on and to me, it makes the eye just wander all over the place. I do like super ideal cut diamonds, but not so much for colored gemstones. I recently purchased a Colombian emerald (to replace my current dark Colombian emerald) and it is native cut (10.5mm x 10mm, odd dimensions). If anyone has any thoughts on native vs. precision, I would love to hear. That's another thing weighing on my mind.
- Price range $15-$20K, max at $25K if it's "the one" but no more than that for a single stone (does not include mounting but I already know my preferred vendor for the mounting so the mounting is easy)

I do hope I can find something that I love in that price range.
By the way, I did ask Vlad about unheated rubies in the 3ct range, and he sent me info on three. They were priced between $30K-$50K which is still out of my price point. Any smaller, and I would be back to my old 2.01ct ruby which is too small. Hence I gave up on the unheated option. I am happy to post the photos he sent me if anyone is interested to see them as reference. I also asked if he does the Tucson show and he said not at this point.
 
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Bron357

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In my looking at rubies (and with mine) they most often seem to be native cut. They seem to prefer that cutting style to preserve carat weight and maybe that’s the way they find the crystals. Fortunately Rubies, being a coloured gem, aren’t going to need a precision cut for dispersion, they are all about the colour.
And there is a lot more around the 2 carat size than the 3 carat size and boy oh boy doesn’t price just go UP!
And at 10 x 12 size, my damaged one is that size and weighs 6.19 carats.
My 10 x 8 one weighs 2.91 carats.
At James Allen, there is a very nice one that is 3.26 carats but it is only 9.90 x 8.27 and a mere $132,000 - yikes.
Rubies seem much more complicated to buy, I have no idea how that 3.26 carat costs $132,000 and an seemingly equally nice one (bit smaller at 3.12 carats) costs $48,000. Both are heated.
?????????????????????
 

Nosean

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Jedi spinel is not true red - it is a NEON pinkish red.

A true red spinel should be ( at the moment!! ) less expensive than a Jedi ( both Namya and Man Sin produce them - same quality). There is no "better" - Mogok, Namya, Man Sin - they all produce gorgous and average stones.

And what is true red.... so difficult...
 
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