Rubies

[fire&ice]

....or Red stones in general. F&I is always planning her next "gift". Initially, I was thinking traditional & right hand ring of diamonds & sapphires (my birthstone). But, lately I have become obsessed with my red jewelry. It symbolizes two things. One, it is the "color" of our "team". Two, also has that cupid/love/valentines effect. Hubby suggested that I re-think the sapphire thing & look into Rubies (or Ruby) w/ diamond/diamonds.

So story, short - what can I expect? If I use it as a center stone, it has to have some presence. If I get two side stones, then more modest in size.

What are red stones besides rubies that don''t look dark? Also, cost difference between heated & natural.

I''m flying blind on this. Any help is appreciated.

 

[CaptAubrey]

there are a lot of nice red stones (spinel, tourmaline, high-end garnets), but there's really nothing like a fine ruby. the best stuff is burmese, but there are some nice untreated rubies coming out of africa these days.




i would start here:




http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/ruby_connoisseurship.htm

 

[valeria101]

Good Q.

Bar high IQ rubies, some red spinels with red fluorecence (same as makes the fame of the very red rubbies) are quite a sight. Rubelite or garnet come close to the right hue, but the saturation of color is not the same. The combination of color and sparkle (refrcation index) of fine rubies and spinel are not there in the other reds. Two different species...

Dark red rubies look and nearly cost like garnet. The price range is HUGE (a hundred fold ?) and so is quality. The top specimens of each kind are seriously beutiful. F&I, I am sure you know what you like

Mr Hughes is great at romancing the stones... he does not mention that his favorite beauties sell for a tad more than diamonds. Besides, the site is called "ruby-sapphire". Not much lip service paid to anythis but, around there.

 

[katbadness]

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On 4/6/2004 6:45:44 PM valeria101 wrote:

Good Q.

Bar high IQ rubies, some red spinels with red fluorecence (same as makes the fame of the very red rubbies) are quite a sight.

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I second AnA's opinion on red spinels. In my book *red* red spinels are close runner ups to rubies (and easier on the pocket!)

.

Have you seen 2 of Mogok's spinels? Let me dig up the pic if you missed them.

 

[valeria101]

Maybe things get redder than this... but it would be darn close to the tip of the Olympus when they do.

The argument for 'red rubby or nothing' is strong, but the line is a fine one. Silk, red fluorescence and all are also found in spinel. And almost anyone would get away with the difference

There is just one reason why I like these stones: spinel would not often get faceted when the same quality as the dark, unappealing and included stones still considered 'gems' if chemically Corundum.

These were burried somewhere among older PS posts. Easy to find.

 

[katbadness]

Check out the stones in AnA's post --

*** Edited because AnA and I posted the same image!

 

[katbadness]

And here's another red spinel --

Found on www.preciousgemstones.com site.

 

[mogok]

Well That's for sure red spinel is gorgeous and it will cost you a fraction of the price of an equivalent beauty ruby. Fire opal is also a stone that can get a beautiful red without to be dark...

For rubies for a 1 carat size stone, the prices for a fine quality unburned around 1 carat will be from $1000 to $6000 or more depending the color and the clarity. But 1 carat is a little bit small for a center stone... Around 3 carats is the best. But for this size price will skyrocket.
Of course you can get a heated 3 carat stone for around $1000 but if you want a transparent red stone you will have more choice over $10.000. If you are searching unburned then $10.000 is not enough if you want something that looks more like a gem than a potato.

For exemple nowadays with $15.000 you can get an exceptional 9 carats size red spinel (with a little bit of orange) in Bangkok in the right place. For this money you cannot dream to get a fine unheated 3 carats Mogok ruby...

Red spinels prices are closer to sapphire prices. Fine unheated Mogok rubies can be more expensive than diamonds...

All the best,

 

[AGBF]

I have a ring set with a cherry red fire opal. Juan of Van graff custom made it for me. I also own a stoplight red spinel, but haven't set it. Like you, I wonder if I want it as a solitaire or with side diamonds. Keep us apprised. I love the search for red stones and hope to live vicariously!

Deb

 

[elmo]

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On 4/6/2004 6:20:04 PM fire&ice wrote:

So story, short - what can I expect? If I use it as a center stone, it has to have some presence. If I get two side stones, then more modest in size. What are red stones besides rubies that don't look dark? Also, cost difference between heated & natural.
----------------

To get an idea about what to expect for pricing, get a friend in the business to share with you the ruby section in a publication called The Guide. It is a panel's view of "wholesale" pricing at each of several different quality levels for a number of different gems. Folks might tell you that this book is useless to a consumer, but you are an "educated new consumer" who before spending the big bucks will have seen a number different things and will insist on documentation of a stone's origin and "quality" via an AGL report and by consulting a trusted independent expert. The really nice stones will be in the "fine" to "extra fine" ranges.

If you want to learn as much as possible, go ahead and order a copy of Dick Hughes' book from Pala. You will not regret it. Richard Wise's new book has a very good chapter on ruby as well.

I agree with Mogok - 3 carats is a nice size. With sides as you suggest a couple of 1.5s might work. There is huge variation in colored stone pricing even at a similar quality level. If you budget about $30k I think you'll turn up a really nice Burma-type 3-carat stone, heated with no filler.

Good luck, this will be a lot of fun

.

p.s. Forget about unheated in this size, it is for the fanatic collector

. You won't find one this size that has the look you want for less than a fortune.

 

[strmrdr]

Im going to get yelled at for this but for a couple hundred bucks you could have a custom cut sythetic that will hold its own with the best natural stones and you wont cry as hard if it gets abraded or chipped.
Dont mistake these for the $10 flame fusion rubies a well cut flux created ruby will hold its own with any ruby,
Side stones are easier on the wallet for the naturals but sythetic is still a better value.

Honestly I dont care if its heated or not as long as it looks good.
Its like vvs diamonds its a choice thing.

I love the looks of rubies and diamonds my wifey2b's wedding band has 2 3mm natural rubies in a wrap style to go with her solitar diamond e-ring.
The are naturals because it was lower cost than having sythetics custom cut.

 

[AGBF]

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On 4/6/2004 6:24:39 PM CaptAubrey wrote:



there are a lot of nice red stones (spinel, tourmaline, high-end garnets), but there's really nothing like a fine ruby. the best stuff is burmese, but there are some nice untreated rubies coming out of africa these days.




i would start here:




http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/ruby_connoisseurship.htm


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Dave (Old Miner) said the same thing once and it started a big debate on whether a red spinel could do what a ruby did. Maybe someone can find the discussion so that those of us who haven't had it can leap in with their own experiences .

 

[elmo]

Strmrdr, for an equally nice look I agree that a great synthetic will perform very well. I think one of the top ones like Chatham or Ramaura in a 3 carat size will run considerably more than a couple hundred bucks though

, but I may be wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I love my recently-purchased red spinel, but it still doesn't look like top Burma-type ruby - maybe as nice in its own way, but not quite the same look. I don't have the experience to make that claim across the board, but it's also what most experts say as well I think.

 

[fire&ice]

Wow, Thanks Everyone!

You have given me lots to think about. I can't wait to see hubby's reaction (he's the one who suggested red) when I tell him a nice size ruby will cost about 30K!

I'm thinking out loud here. I know me well enough that with colored stones I'm gonna want the best. With diamonds a well cut stone w/ strong blue fluor can really trick the eye. I don't know this as I haven't seen many. But, logic would dicate that it's harder to bluff a colored stone quality. Clarity & saturation of color is more apparent.

So, do I want a "fine" ring or do I want to have a "fun" ring? It might be really more fun to design (with the help of my Architortural hubby)a way cool fun moderne ring. One, it will be much less expensive (remember I'm cheap). And two, I would feel more inclined to experiment w/ the design with less expensive stones.

I really like the idea of a red spinel. I remember AGBF spinel - it's a stunner. At one point, you were thinking about pairing w/ pear diamonds. That would be very traditional. I know I do want to incorporate diamonds.

Umm...this could really get fun.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 4/7/2004 8:34:54 AM elmo wrote:

Strmrdr, for an equally nice look I agree that a great synthetic will perform very well. I think one of the top ones like Chatham or Ramaura in a 3 carat size will run considerably more than a couple hundred bucks though

, but I may be wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I love my recently-purchased red spinel, but it still doesn't look like top Burma-type ruby - maybe as nice in its own way, but not quite the same look. I don't have the experience to make that claim across the board, but it's also what most experts say as well I think.----------------

I'm not a big synthetic gal. In fact my "fun" red & white jewelry are crystals. So, I don't think I want to go in that direction. Thanks for the suggestion though, Strm.

Elmo, since I am not a connisseur of fine stones, would the red spinel satisfy me. Perhaps? Also, what is the hardness of a red spinel?

 

[CaptAubrey]

i have seen top-quality synthetics, and while they can be nice-looking, they just can't compete with top burma rubies. maybe i am just picky.




ditto for spinels. they can be very, very nice, but if money is no object, i'll take the ruby. but mogok has a point, the difference in quality is not reflected in the difference in price. spinels are priced lower than they should be. so if you want a bargain, go with spinel.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 4/7/2004 12:00:04 PM CaptAubrey wrote:


. but mogok has a point, the difference in quality is not reflected in the difference in price. spinels are priced lower than they should be. so if you want a bargain, go with spinel.
----------------

I make my living buying & hedging that something is undervalued. The gem trade is different than the Art/Antique trade. But, do you think that Red Spinels will increase in value? Hence, hedging that bet.

 

[AGBF]

Maybe I just haven't seen a fine Mogok ruby and that is why I find this ruby-pushing weird. I, of all people, always wanted a fine, Mogok ruby of the best red and with some silk. It remains my dream stone. I have never SEEN one that good, mind you, but I have seen pictures of it and that stone has a mystique for me.

When Dave Atlas said that a red spinel couldn't refract (was that the term) as much as a ruby, I took his words seriously. He is someone anyone should take seriously. He is seriously knowledgeable!!!

Then Richard Hughes-whose book on rubies and sapphires had been a Bible to me-sold me the red spinel from Pala. It *DOES* look like a red stoplight in person. And remember, even the people setting the British Crown Jewels mistook red spinels for rubies!!! Several historic rubies are spinels. So how different can a good red spinel be? Gimme a break!!!

I will still have that ruby as my dream stone, but NO ONE can tell me my spinel isn't the BEST!!!!!!! Spinels ARE more rare. They are NOT usually heat treated (discussion of treating cracks notwithstanding). And some famous rubies are spinels. I think my spinel is not only worth more per dollar than any ruby I may ever buy, but that it may also even be more beautiful. (Damn! I NEVER thought I'd say a fine Burmese ruby wasn't the only way to go!!!)

 

[valeria101]

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On 4/7/2004 12:04:53 PM fire&ice wrote:

I make my living buying & hedging that something is undervalued. The gem trade is different than the Art/Antique trade. But, do you think that Red Spinels will increase in value? Hence, hedging that bet.
----------------

You will hear this often. And I hope more comments follow, since my view comes from the wrong side of the counter

The following 'laundry list' was very tempting to put down - hopig for diverging opinions.

In my view, red spinel is a worthy ruby replacement, while the original will never fill demand again. And both stones stood the tests of synthetics' competition. Not sure how long this would take, but ruby-like spinel is a sure candidate for increasing value. No problem reselling those - probably even the next day, not only in a litttle while.

There semms to be more to the color of these than 'red'. My feel is that orange undertones are more accepted in spinel than in ruby as a worthy modifier, while pink/purple is the more accepted modifier in rubies. This statement is based on the different tradition of valor in each type: pink-to-red corundum being called ruby on occasion and the fame of 'flame' orange-red spinel. Splitting the proverbial hair... really.

BTW: Blue spinel, anyone? There are not too many of these in jewelry or gem sellers' lists, anywhere. Nice blue (well, I guess darker than blue sapphire but with good saturation and the lightest green overtone, if any). Get anything from srprisingly low quotes to the stunningly high as a collector's rarity.

The mention of weight ranges in Mogoc's post is very useful - I thinlk. It makes little sense to go for a 'sead size' 1ct, unless done for pure fun. The three carats mark works for rubies. Spinel would probably take a couple more for a sure fire claim to fame. Ten carats gets into sort of inner sanctum, quite unusual and desirable, even if some inclusions and shift of hue position is there.

Hope this helps open the chat

 

[CaptAubrey]

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On 4/7/2004 12:34:31 PM AGBF wrote:





Maybe I just haven't seen a fine Mogok ruby and that is why I find this ruby-pushing weird.
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i have, and if you had too, you wouldn't.

and:

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On 4/7/2004 12:55:39 PM valeria101 wrote:

In my view, red spinel is a worthy ruby replacement, while the original will never fill demand again.

----------------

this is a worthwhile point. fine mogok rubies are becoming more and more rare. as i have heard it, production has been dropping off for years, and there are those who fear that, after all these centuries, the deposits are finally becoming played out. mogok can fill us in on this, i hope.

 

[valeria101]

Not sure there has ever been much more decent quality ruby (meaning at least not garnet-like dark red) or red spinel. But this is already saying allot.

It would probably have been better if rubies and sapphires needed so much market backup to keep up prices as the diamond industry seems to manage. But they don't. And some say that this is precisely why gems only come from the most dangerous places on Earth. Still a true statement, I suppose, regardless of interpretation.

 

[mogok]

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On 4/7/2004 1:12:44 PM CaptAubrey wrote:

----------------
fine mogok rubies are becoming more and more rare. as i have heard it, production has been dropping off for years, and there are those who fear that, after all these centuries, the deposits are finally becoming played out. mogok can fill us in on this, i hope.----------------

Well...
This is sure the production in Mogok is not abondant. The key point is that most of the alluvial deposit in the valleys are nearly depleted. It means that now to get rubies you have to mine them from hard rock mines. It means that the extraction cost is much higher as breaking tons of calcite is much more expensive than to just wash gravels. Some mines are 1000 feets deep and all the mines have to work together in order to pump the water. If one mine stop the operation then the level of water make the work danngerous in other mines...
But the production is still going.
I was in Mogok last month and I have witness hundreds of miners breaking calcite... Currently Mogok mining district make 500.000 people live and the production is still present. I don't worry. There were, there are and there will still be beautiful rubies mined in Mogok for years and years to come. You can be sure of that when you visit the valley and feel the scale of this place. Humans have just mine the alluvials... But the mountains are here full of stones!
Of course everything will depend of the market prices. With huge amount of cheap stones coming from Madagascar, from the Burmese mines in Mong Hsu and the Vietnamese mines in Luc yen and Quy Chau at lower cost, the mining is a little bit slow in Mogok... But wait for these mining area to slow down their production and the ruby prices to go up and the mining in Mogok will raise again.

Mogok is currently probably producing the best qualities for rubies, sapphires, red spinels, peridot and moonstones in the world. These stones in gem qualities were never cheap and will never be. Top fine Mogok stones are still the stones for the wealthiest of the wealthy... Heat treated stones and synthethics are strong competitors but they stay synthethics and treated stones.

Anyway red spinel is really a great stone if you want something that show some respectable size compared to a fine ruby in the unheated gemstone market.
AGBF has very well resumed this...

If you are interested by a very fine Mogok red spinel example, you can go to the following link:

www.gemwow.com
and go to the "private vault" section... this is the area some special stones are placed outside the website open to everybody.

Then put the following keys:
email: [email protected]
code: 3236

This stone is not mine... but one of the website vendor send me this key for me to see his stone.
This stone is currently still available in Bangkok to my knowledge.


Anyway for your pleasure I join to this post one of the photos I did 3 weeks ago in Mogok. You can discover here one of the hard rock ruby mines in operation with dozens of native miners breaking the calcite to get the precious rubies whiles hundreds of other are mining undergound. Now the main activity is underground mining and most of the work force is occupied there. then when the rainy season will come pumping the water will be too costly and the miners will then break all the rocks taken out from the mine to harvest the rubies...

Really an amazing place to visit.

I cannot wait to go again up there next month!

All the best!

 

[CaptAubrey]

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On 4/7/2004 2:32:15 PM mogok wrote:







Well...
This is sure the production in Mogok is not abundant. The key point is that most of the alluvial deposit in the valleys are nearly depleted. It means that now to get rubies you have to mine them from hard rock mines. It means that the extraction cost is much higher as breaking tons of calcite is much more expensive than to just wash gravels.

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yes, this is what i have been hearing. but it's reassuring to know the stuff is still there, even if it's harder to get out.

 

[mogok]

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On 4/7/2004 2:31:03 PM valeria101 wrote:

And some say that this is precisely why gems only come from the most dangerous places on Earth. Still a true statement, I suppose, regardless of interpretation.

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Hum... Val for once I will not agree with you: Gemstones does not come all the time from the most dangerous places in the earth... But the greed of some people and the ignorance of others make many gem mining areas dangerous.
Mogok for exemple is a very safe area globally. I've been there 6 times in the past few years and I can tell you thats its a real pleasure to visit it again and again.
May be one day I will have the pleasure to make you visit my gemstone heaven!
I'm sure you would enjoy it...

All the best,

 

[elmo]

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On 4/7/2004 9:59:14 AM fire&ice wrote: Elmo, would the red spinel satisfy me. Perhaps? Also, what is the hardness of a red spinel?
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I think so. They're pretty stones. And as strmrdr says it will wear just about as well as ruby I think. Fine ruby or fine spinel, either way it's tough to find. Actually, for less than the price of the ruby, I might opt for both a spinel and a great unheated Ceylon sapphire

.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 4/7/2004 10:40:25 PM elmo wrote:

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On 4/7/2004 9:59:14 AM fire&ice wrote: Elmo, would the red spinel satisfy me. Perhaps? Also, what is the hardness of a red spinel?
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I think so. They're pretty stones. And as strmrdr says it will wear just about as well as ruby I think. Fine ruby or fine spinel, either way it's tough to find. Actually, for less than the price of the ruby, I might opt for both a spinel and a great unheated Ceylon sapphire

.----------------

I'm going for the red & white theme. Not that I'm not patriotic, but I don't want the red, white & blue theme.

How much per carat will a fine red spinel run. Since this will be a ring that will incorporate other stones, what size would I have to go. My diamond is 3c. How does that translate into size of red spinel? I don't want the red spinel to be the size of my 3c.

 

[fire&ice]

BTW, Mogok, that red spinel in the private vault is really a stunner. A true collectors piece. But, much larger that I want.

 

[elmo]

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How much per carat will a fine red spinel run. Since this will be a ring that will incorporate other stones, what size would I have to go. My diamond is 3c. How does that translate into size of red spinel? I don't want the red spinel to be the size of my 3c.
----------------

Three to under five carats ran maybe $1500-$3000 per carat for really nice stones when I was shopping, but I saw so few stones I hate to generalize. There is a bunch of $200 per carat spinel but it doesn't have the color.

You generally don't have to worry about a 3-carat spinel being the same size as your RB 3-carat diamond if the spinel is cut properly. A properly-cut stone will be not only be deeper than a round diamond the pavilion will retain much more weight by the way it is faceted. I think spinel rough has a tendency to yield shallow stones though, so that's something to watch out for...a stone that's too shallow will be large for its weight but windowed.

That 3.5 carat stone that katbadness posted is probably close to as spready as you can have and still be well cut (9.6x8.6, 66% depth). Maybe you can get by with 2-3 carats? The emerald cut here looks pretty nice: http://www.kashmirblue.com/Coloredstones/kbspinel.html and he says there he just picked up a parcel of stones. (I've never spoken with them, just saw the pretty picture.)