Round Stone Advice for Newbie

[ivany]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and was hoping to gain some advice in purchasing a loose stone to use in an engagement ring. The extent of my knowledge is limited to Fred Cuellar's How to Buy a Diamond book.

I understand that there are many factors to consider after having read the book. Although it is very informative, the overall experience is becoming overwhelming. I want to strike a good balance between feeling comfortable with my purchase, without having to become an expert in the field. I also understand that a merchant is profiting from the sale. I have no concept of what my stone should cost, nor what a reasonable mark up should be. Here's where I'm asking for your help...

Ideally, I would like to spend $13,000, with +/- $1,000 wiggle room. I am interested in a 1.5-1.7 carat stone, G-I, VVS1-VS2, without fluorescence. I would also like the center of the stone to be free from inclusions. My goal, like that of most, is to mask the inclusions with prongs. According to the literature, I should also be looking for a well proportioned stone in order for it to reflect light and create "shine." The book refers to this as the Class I Tolkowsky cut, with a focus on the pavilion angle.

Given my price range, are these expectations realistic in today's market? If not, where should I be looking to compromise? Also, where are good places to start my search for this type of stone? I am located in the NYC area and am open to suggestions. Lastly, which additional one or two factors would you recommend considering during my search?

I appreciate your help!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Now you can burn his book!, It is full of BS!..

Here's a nice I VS2 stone...
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/12121/

 

[Deez]

Welcome to the forum, and the inevitably exhaustive hunt for the right diamond.

You will find that the regulars in here have a ton of knowledge, and are usually more than helpful in lending their time and expertise to your cause.

Aside from their direct input, utilize the function above that allows you to search the forum for other threads. Use such terms as:
-Light performance
-IdealScope
-ASET
-HCA

That will give you more than enough material to sift through. Everything you want to know now, and the answers to questions you don't even know you have yet, will be contained in those results if you are thorough.

Good luck!

 

[ivany]

Deez, and dancing fire, thanks for your quick reply. I will take a look at the four additional characteristics you've proposed. Unfortunately I've already invested the time reading Cuellar's book. Hopefully I'll be able to use some information from there. This search has just begun, and already seems exhaustive. At the same time it's interesting to learn these factors. I would have never guessed that buying a diamond involves so many pitfalls - there's probably one for every facet

 

[Gypsy]

Yeah. You took a bad turn into the tar pits of doom with good ole Fred. Honestly that man just makes sh*t up and swears to it.


Here's a primer for you:
The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only. EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Deez, and dancing fire, thanks for your quick reply. I will take a look at the four additional characteristics you've proposed. Unfortunately I've already invested the time reading Cuellar's book. Hopefully I'll be able to use some information from there. This search has just begun, and already seems exhaustive. At the same time it's interesting to learn these factors. I would have never guessed that buying a diamond involves so many pitfalls - there's probably one for every facet

Now that you have finished reading his "comic book" you should consider buying this beautiful stone..
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/12121/

 

[Gypsy]

On color:
It is important to remember is that color is graded FACE DOWN. Where there is NO light return. Not face up where there is light return and refraction. You wear diamonds set. FACE UP.

Within one color grade, even the labs can't agree on the color grades of stones and something could be a "high" H or a "low" E. So... no. Not really. Within 2 color grades it is hard. Not impossible. But very hard. And it gets harder once set. If you are talking ideal rounds, or any stone with ideal light return and no sharp corners it gets harder still because the ideal light return masks body color.

Generally we say to be conservative stay above H.



If you are talking fancy shapes without ideal light return (because there is no 'ideal' for EC's Radiant, etc) it's a bit different.

This is how I think of it.

Ever gotten one of those HUGE paint fan decks? Where there are literally 100s of colors of whites? And when they are RIGHT next to each other you can TOTALLY tell that one is bluer/colder and one is a bit warmer and which one is one is TOTALLY warmer. One there's one that's slightly greener. One that's slightly pinker? But really. They are all white?

Then you pick one after agonizing over this white or that white and when it's on the walls and people are like: Oh. You painted again. And it's STILL white. Great.

And you're all... BUT it's BLUE white. Or it's a WARM white now. It used to be ____ white. It's TOTALLY different.

It's like that. You are talking about shades of white. D is colder... J is warmer. But it's all white.

YES. If you have an accurately graded F and an H THAT HAVE THE SAME PERFORMANCE you are going to be able to tell them apart when you compare them side by side. Just like you would be able to tell if you painted your walls a warm white, but painted the crown molding a cold/straight white. But both are STILL white, you only see the contrast because of the proximity. But it's very slight, you could set an F center with G sides and never tell the difference. And even H sides depending on the setting and the size of the sidestones... especially with round brilliants.


I want you notice all the qualifiers thought. I'm talking about stones with the SAME performance. An ideal H will out white an F that has compromised light performance from a poor cut.

NOTHING impacts the appearance of a diamond as much as cut. CUT is king.

You want the shinest whitest and brightest diamond out there: Cut is King. No other factor, not color or clarity or anything else impacts how white bright an shiny a stone is.

 

[Gypsy]

FYI. There is nothing wrong with Fluorescence. Only a very small percentage of stones are "overblue". As long as your stone is not overblue fluorescence can be a lovely feature of a stone. And frankly many knowledgeable shoppers and trade people PREFER stones with some fluorescence.

Regarding inclusions. Clarity is graded face up and with a 10X loupe. So even in IF diamond is not going to be inclusion free. I'm sorry if you were mislead about that. Under more extreme magification even an IF will have inclusions. Inclusions are not bad. AT ALL. They are birthmarks for your diamond. You are absolutely fine staying to eyeclean SI1 and above. Or, as you said VS2.

 

[ivany]

Wow thank you for all of the info! It will definitely help start the hunt.

Dancing fire, I took a look at your good old gold link. Most of the information such as ASET, Arrows, Hearts, and DiamXray are not things that I am familiar with so I've got plenty more reading. Their store is in Massapequa which is within reasonable distance from home. Is your link an example of a nice stone worth researching and eventually viewing in person?

 

[Gypsy]

Im not DF. But yes. GOG is one of our best vendors.

If you look at the top of your screen you will see various tabs. I strongly encourage you to start your research there, after you have read the information I have posted for you.

Then, I highly suggest you continue your research here: http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/ The "Beyond" part of this is very important.

About the ASET image: http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/

Hearts and Arrows: http://www.winkjones.com/index.php?page=education-precision


Okay? Now you are informed and empowered. Plus you can make an appointment and go to GOG and they will help you put it all into context for you.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Wow thank you for all of the info! It will definitely help start the hunt.

Dancing fire, I took a look at your good old gold link. Most of the information such as ASET, Arrows, Hearts, and DiamXray are not things that I am familiar with so I've got plenty more reading. Their store is in Massapequa which is within reasonable distance from home. Is your link an example of a nice stone worth researching and eventually viewing in person?

Heck yeah!...wish I lived near GOG.. I would feel like a kid in a candy store..

 

[Gypsy]

Not local to you, but also has some lovely stones in your spec range is Brain Gavin. Again, one of our best vendors.

Diamonds:
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.472-i-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104072303019 Budget friendly
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.500-i-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104072305006 Exactly 1.5 carats

Brian Gavin has nice selection of settings that are very different from GOG's selection. So I wanted to post these to give you an idea of what is out there for you.

Always make sure you confirm any stone you look at in the SI1-VS2 range is eyeclean.

 

[Gypsy]

One more option, if you want to maximize size.

Both the GOG stone and the BGD stones are Hearts and Arrows "super-ideals."

You don't have to have hearts and arrow patterning to get ideal light return. They are not mutually exclusive. You can have hearts and arrows patterning without ideal light return. And you can get ideal light return without the hearts and arrows patterning.

The visual difference to the average consumer between a hearts and arrows stone and a non-hearts and arrows stone is minimal. And so the patterning is something you can safely give up if you want more size.

I wanted to show you what your budget can get you if you chose to go for well cut round that is not a super-ideal.
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.65-carat-i-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-244395 1.65 I VS1. VERY budget friendly Very nice stone with great spread at 7.5mm. Beautiful stone. James Allen would be happy to put it on hold for you (no cost, no obligation) and get you an idealscope image to evaluate the light performance (angles are in the right range for ideal light performance).

This is a very nice stone at a great price. We have many lurkers who steal stones this nice. I highly suggest you put this one hold NOW. And then you can do your research while you want for an idealscope image (it takes 3 business days).

For more reading about super-ideals versus stones that are not H&A but have great performance see here: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/likelihood-of-finding-a-signature-super-ideal-diamond.174235/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/likelihood-of-finding-a-signature-super-ideal-diamond.174235/[/URL]

 

[ivany]

I just read the section on ASET and Xray. While taking a look at http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/12121/,, I came up with two questions that will probably be applicable to any other stone.

The link provided has a bright red xray of the stone in comparison to the darker red ideals of the tutorial. One of the reoccurring themes was to look for a darker red shade. I may have misinterpreted the tutorial. Does the shade of red matter? Also the ASET image has a green shaded circle right down the middle of the stone. However, the ideal stone in the tutorial is always shaded red. Is this something that I've misinterpreted as well?

Thank you for your help!

 

[Gypsy]

Green on the center of an ASET is okay.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/aset-with-green-center.170949/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/aset-with-green-center.170949/[/URL] just means the pavilion angle is under 40.7

No, the shade of red, overall doesn't matter. What matters is if there are different shades in the same image. If you see a bright/darker read outside facets, and light/pinkish red or white under the table, then you know you have leakage.

 

[ivany]

I started trying to apply some of the knowledge that all of you were kind enough to share with me.

When comparing these:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/12121/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/12476/

I see that there is ~$1000 price difference. Both look great, but I cant seem to point out why one is more expensive than the other. The ASET on the less expensive stone (12121) appears more uniform, especially at the table. The xray seems to suggest the same thing if I've been following everyone's reading material properly. My best guess is that the difference in price is due to the difference in color?

Thank you!

 

[Gypsy]

Yes the price reflects the color difference. Actual difference is less than a 1000. 13,800 and 14,500. So $800 difference.