Round cut ASET analysis & critique, nitpicking welcome!

[Nardster]

Greetings from Perth Australia,

I am an engineer (unfortunately, for this part of my carefree life anyway), and this will be my first and hopefully last purchase of a round diamond for a halo engagement ring, I've watched multiple youtube videos from GOG (really useful, what began my obsession), researched a tonne online, browsed and visited multiple diamond websites and stores as well as trolling Pricescope forums for weeks prior to finally joining so here I am. This is an incredible treasure trove of truth and opinionated information.

I've looked at almost a hundred different round diamonds and I've come across a strange ASET result and require another person's (hopefully knowledgeable) advice. I am considering this as one of "the one(s)" proportions-wise so feel free to mention if this is money well spent or otherwise. The main reason I'd like opinions is that I must deposit 10% of 11k AUD to have it shipped to the store, mistakes are not acceptable as I will lose that deposit if I choose to back out assuming the proportions are true!

Unfortunately, I'm only considering Perth diamond suppliers (Jogia Diamonds) so the superbly cut diamonds (set by the standards of GOG, Brian Gavin, White Flash or HPD) are somewhat overpriced.

Images!!




proportions GIA Report:
1.03ct F VS2 Triple Ex, No Fluorescence
Depth% 61.2
Table% 56
Crown° 35.0
Crown% 15.5
Pavilion° 40.6
Pavilion% 42.5
Star% 50
Lower% 80
Girdle Thin to Med 3.0%
Price: AUD 11k inc GST (8.12k USD via googling)


21-18 Questions!
My main question is: I can point out that the Ideal scope of arrows shows light leakages around more than half of the points (not talking about the arrows themselves, isn't this supposed to reflect on the ASET scope image as well? I'm not sure how the photo was taken/feel free to speculate. I haven't ruled out inconsistent cutting as it is obvious on the hearts image.
Q2: I'm still trying to understand painting and digging, but are either of these evident in the images? Quick guess from me is "not discernible".
Bonus points: Can you tell where the inclusions are from the first image? GIA says: Cloud, Crystal, Feather, Needle.

Also, feel free to criticise the cut quality! Nit pick if you feel like it (I already have in my brain), I still have another month to browse according to my schedule. I'm open to most ideas and all forms of criticism in my diamond selection.

Photos will be posted for those that wish to see this to the end (ETA October/November 2018 ).
I am posting this thread on 12:34 AM 24/7/18

 

[John P]

My main question is: I can point out that the Ideal scope of arrows shows light leakages around more than half of the points (not talking about the arrows themselves, isn't this supposed to reflect on the ASET scope image as well? I'm not sure how the photo was taken/feel free to speculate. I haven't ruled out inconsistent cutting as it is obvious on the hearts image.

There's no ideal-scope image. There is an ASET image on top, with images made in H&A viewer on the bottom. The H&A images provide information on cut precision, but no information on light return or leakage.

Here's a recent thread with more detail and graphics on that topic.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hearts-and-arrows-vs-idealscope.242064/

Q2: I'm still trying to understand painting and digging, but are either of these evident in the images? Quick guess from me is "not discernible".

Right. Indexing looks normal.

Bonus points: Can you tell where the inclusions are from the first image? GIA says: Cloud, Crystal, Feather, Needle.

Not reliably. Focal depth in these images is limited to one thin horizontal 'slice' of the diamond. If you were using a gemological microscope you would start by focusing on the table-plane and manipulate the scope to slowly descend through the diamond. Characteristics will come into focus, and go out again, as you reach and descend through their specific plane within the diamond. In some photos a characteristic will occur where the macro photo's focus happened to be set. In others none are evident.

 

[rockysalamander]

Great details @John Pollard !

Can you post a video link and the GIA certification? We should be able to point to at least some of the inclusions (though VS2 may make this a challenge)

 

[sledge]

Are you limiting your search to diamonds in Perth, Australia mainly due to price and the fact you want to see in-person? Or is pricing your limitation?

Only asking because here are some super ideals that fit within the range you are paying for a non-super ideal:

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3988009.htm

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.034-g-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104100872006
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.025-g-vs1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104098562018
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.056-g-vs1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104098900001

https://www.victorcanera.com/diamonds/pk5dk6-0.950-g-vs1-ideal-hearts-arrows-round

 

[Todd Gray]

Ditto what John Pollard and Sledge said...

People frequently mistake hearts and arrows scope images for Ideal Scope images when both are red.

Sometimes, I wonder whether vendors count on people making that false assumption?

Take a look at the dark areas visible under the table facet in the clarity photograph and then see how those areas correlate with the light leakage indicated in the multi-colored ASET Scope image.

A higher degree of optical precision would create a more consistent pattern of hearts and arrows, which combined with tighter proportions, would produce a higher degree of light return and sparkle which is bolder, brighter, and more vivid.

Why? Because it produces a higher number of virtual facets... Lots to be found on that within this forum.

Brian Gavin, Crafted by Infinity, Victor Canera, and Whiteflash all ship to Australia and offer very reasonable inspection and return periods.

 

[Nardster]

There's no ideal-scope image. There is an ASET image on top, with images made in H&A viewer on the bottom. The H&A images provide information on cut precision, but no information on light return or leakage.
Thank you for the response on this, I guess I just assumed people were using this as Idealscope images over time now I know better, and I'm glad I asked.

Here's a recent thread with more detail and graphics on that topic.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hearts-and-arrows-vs-idealscope.242064/


Right. Indexing looks normal.


Not reliably. Focal depth in these images is limited to one thin horizontal 'slice' of the diamond. If you were using a gemological microscope you would start by focusing on the table-plane and manipulate the scope to slowly descend through the diamond. Characteristics will come into focus, and go out again, as you reach and descend through their specific plane within the diamond. In some photos a characteristic will occur where the macro photo's focus happened to be set. In others none are evident.

Great explanation, thank you for the input. Do you think this is a worthwhile considering I have no other means of purchasing a diamond? I will continue to search for more.

@rockysalamander unfortunately the international supplier does not have a 360 video view, I guess the challenge is somewhat of a good thing

@sledge yes, that is the main reason why I chose not to go online as I'm not confident enough to be sure that I'm not being tricked into buying something that's not as it is presented. Although I'm sure those online stores are reputable enough that the members of this forum highly regard them.

@Todd Gray Actually now that you mention that, it could be true. A less informed consumer is more ideal in this single-huge-purchase industry (sarcasm).
Thank you for the advice! I have glossed over virtual facets I shall read more into it.

I guess I'll take another look at those stores and the ones mentioned by sledge since you both mentioned it

Thanks for the quick responses guys, I shall continue my diamond hunting

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I could be misleading people with my thread title, can anyone assist me in removing "Ideal scope" from my title? I'm not sure how to search for active forum administrators

 

[Todd Gray]

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I could be misleading people with my thread title, can anyone assist me in removing "Ideal scope" from my title? I'm not sure how to search for active forum administrators

Happy to help. Let us know if there are any other diamonds you'd like an opinion on.

I wouldn't worry about editing the title. Actually, I believe that the title and responses will be educational for other people who might run into the same thing...

 

[sledge]

I can understand your dilemma in buying over the internet. However, the difference maker is really you have this forum and the knowledgeable people here to help you make a good decision.

The nice thing about doing business with some of the super ideal vendors like BGD, WF, etc is they have superior customer service, well known for their ideal cut quality and easy to deal with even on overseas transactions. I am trying to remember the deal with CBI stones. I know HPD pushes them in the States, but I think there is a CBI dealer in Australia.

The real difference maker is the guys we are talking about will provide you a true hearts & arrows diamond, with complete imagery (idealscope, ASET, H&A, videos, still images, etc) to be transparent and honest with the stone you are getting. You will be hard pressed to find a local dealer as good with the quality of stones they have.

One of the directors of PS also has a diamond in Australia that deals in top quality stones; however, his two locations are in the Melbourne area. Garry Holloway with Holloway Diamonds.

 

[Nardster]

I can understand your dilemma in buying over the internet. However, the difference maker is really you have this forum and the knowledgeable people here to help you make a good decision.

The nice thing about doing business with some of the super ideal vendors like BGD, WF, etc is they have superior customer service, well known for their ideal cut quality and easy to deal with even on overseas transactions. I am trying to remember the deal with CBI stones. I know HPD pushes them in the States, but I think there is a CBI dealer in Australia.

The real difference maker is the guys we are talking about will provide you a true hearts & arrows diamond, with complete imagery (idealscope, ASET, H&A, videos, still images, etc) to be transparent and honest with the stone you are getting. You will be hard pressed to find a local dealer as good with the quality of stones they have.

One of the directors of PS also has a diamond in Australia that deals in top quality stones; however, his two locations are in the Melbourne area. Garry Holloway with Holloway Diamonds.

Ah yes, you are right about those points. Thank you for providing a more detailed explanation. I am definitely considering the White flash, and Victor Carena links you shared here.
I should also mention that I am only after No/Faint Fluorescence as I managed to discuss this with my girlfriend which thankfully reduces my options and chance of analysis paralysis.

I must say I am thankful of what Garry's done with this industry. It's helped me satisfy my obsession for quality over size. And of course thankful for the internet and everyone willing to share their knowledge and opinions.

I was not going to disclose this (to avoid someone here poaching from me, but now that I think about it. That might be a good thing) but I am comparing the diamond in my first post to the following one (Jogia's signature range):

Photos again



Unfortunately there is no ASET scope image but Jogia does do their own analysis on the following, this might not be useful:


Proportions are:
1.01ct E VS2 Triple Ex, Faint Fluorescence
Depth% 62.3
Table% 56.3
Crown° 36.1
Crown% 16.0
Pavilion° 40.5
Pavilion% 42.8
Star% 51.3 : 48.7
Lower% 80
Girdle Slightly Thick 1.9 - 2.5%
Price: Similar to previous



Feel free to compare and comment on the two, I'm not too interested in this one as the inclusion I saw in person is somewhat evident for me (I wish I hadn't looked).

 

[sledge]

Ah yes, you are right about those points. Thank you for providing a more detailed explanation. I am definitely considering the White flash, and Victor Carena links you shared here.
I should also mention that I am only after No/Faint Fluorescence as I managed to discuss this with my girlfriend which thankfully reduces my options and chance of analysis paralysis.

I must say I am thankful of what Garry's done with this industry. It's helped me satisfy my obsession for quality over size. And of course thankful for the internet and everyone willing to share their knowledge and opinions.

I was not going to disclose this (to avoid someone here poaching from me, but now that I think about it. That might be a good thing) but I am comparing the diamond in my first post to the following one (Jogia's signature range):

Photos again



Unfortunately there is no ASET scope image but Jogia does do their own analysis on the following, this might not be useful:


Proportions are:
1.01ct E VS2 Triple Ex, Faint Fluorescence
Depth% 62.3
Table% 56.3
Crown° 36.1
Crown% 16.0
Pavilion° 40.5
Pavilion% 42.8
Star% 51.3 : 48.7
Lower% 80
Girdle Slightly Thick 1.9 - 2.5%
Price: Similar to previous



Feel free to compare and comment on the two, I'm not too interested in this one as the inclusion I saw in person is somewhat evident for me (I wish I hadn't looked).

I'm not a fan. The angles aren't the best and the IS image is proving that as you can see leakage (lighter red/pinkish) spots from about 4 to 12 o'clock positions.

I've seen their proprietary grading system before and it's not well respected. An ASET is more desirable but honestly the IS tells us we have some issues.

Also depending on clarity grade and if that crystal is black or white it may be a problem. It's in the middle of the table which is the most visible and worse place.

All things considered I'd try to get a better stone.

 

[Nardster]

I'm glad we see eye to eye here, I briefly saw this diamond in store about 2 weeks ago and I honestly couldn't tell where the inclusion was at the time due to my over excitement of seeing a 1+ct loose diamond for the first time. I'll probably drop by again just to be sure that the crystal is in fact a none issue if I do succumb to that option, like a final backup plan.

Having said this, that was the main reason why I started browsing on their international (virtual) store but I guess I have to decide if I'm after a perfect H&A symmetrical cut or not since I haven't found one that would be a contender to the branded ones (besides the one in my first post), I guess no surprises there.

So I may decide on that White Flash diamond but I have to discuss some details (not concerning diamonds) with the live chat first.

I'll keep looking, and if I don't post for any other comparisons/opinions then I've probably made a decision. Thanks again @sledge

For those that would like to share their opinion on either of the ones I've mentioned, I'm totally open to more critiques!

 

[OoohShiny]

I know that we are a forum full of strange people, sorry, strangers and that the internet is often labelled as a dark and mysterious place where bad things happen and people lie for 'entertainment' or monetary gain for reasons unknown, but I really would urge you to consider the SuperIdeal options from the Pricescope-recommended vendors.

You will pay 10% GST on import into Aus (I think?) but the quality should be noticeable when compared to the average stones sold in-store at Bricks and Mortar stores.

You can purchase using a credit card, as that way you (should - check your Ts&Cs documentation) have protection if the goods do not arrive or they are not of the quality advertised.

The bonus of the PS-recommended vendors is that they have excellent Returns policies, so it should either be free or minimal cost (compared to the price of a diamond) to return a stone. (You should ask the vendor to confirm the returns process, whether they insure returns themselves, and what charges you would need to pay for, if any.)

I myself was dubious/doubtful, as it is only healthy to be cynical on the internet, but you would be in safe hands with the PS-recommended vendors. You can even request a skype video call with some of them - I know @Wink of High Performance Diamonds will have a chat face-to-face and show you the stone(s) under consideration if you would like to do that.


Either way, you could/should buy an ASETscope yourself - they are only about USD25 IIRC - as that way you can assess any options you have in front of you with more confidence.

 

[OoohShiny]

Oh, and I am very concerned about the "10% deposit is required and will be lost if you do not purchase the stone" rule they are putting in place.

It only costs them, what, a couple of hundred USD at most to ship a stone to them from elsewhere in the world, AIUI?

Assuming that most places work on 'sale or return' in the diamond world (one of the pros would need to confirm this - @Wink? @Texas Leaguer?) they would effectively be making AUD800+ out of you if you do not go ahead.

That is not acceptable to me.

As above, the PS-recommended vendors would not charge you anywhere this much if you wished to reject a stone, if anything at all, so IMHO would be a much safer way forward.

(And with a SuperIdeal stone in hand, you could compare it to the local offerings in-person and make an informed decision.)

 

[srke]

I hsd a diamond pendant from hpd shipped to Australia a few months back and it arrived without any problems at all in under a week.

One of the reasons I went with a super ideal vendor was due to wanting to make sure I was getting something exceptional and avoid getting a dud and then facing all the difficulties with trying to return an overseas purchase/losing duties paid etc.

Having a local jeweller who could let you to look at well cut stones in person would be great, however it seems like the in house stock of the vendor you're looking at isn't fantastic, and by the sounds of the conditions that are being imposed on you of having to pay a deposit just to call in a stone, that seems to completely moot any benefit of going with a local jeweller.

From my perspective, especially given the fact ordering from Australia will make any returns a pain, it was a safer bet to order a definite super ideal stone, even if slightly more expensive, than take any risks of not liking the stone.

 

[Todd Gray]

You will pay 10% GST on import into Aus (I think?) but the quality should be noticeable when compared to the average stones sold in-store at Bricks and Mortar stores.

I believe there is a workaround for that provided via AUSFTA.

The vendors who ship to Australia will be familiar with it...

 

[Nardster]

I know that we are a forum full of strange people, sorry, strangers and that the internet is often labelled as a dark and mysterious place where bad things happen and people lie for 'entertainment' or monetary gain for reasons unknown, but I really would urge you to consider the SuperIdeal options from the Pricescope-recommended vendors.
It's funny now that I think about it, my partner probably won't completely believe me if I told her the lengths effort I've gone to get to the end.

You will pay 10% GST on import into Aus (I think?) but the quality should be noticeable when compared to the average stones sold in-store at Bricks and Mortar stores.
Ah yes, I just recently read about this on one of the older posts, I'm hoping what @Todd Gray mentioned would be true.

You can purchase using a credit card, as that way you (should - check your Ts&Cs documentation) have protection if the goods do not arrive or they are not of the quality advertised.
Noted, I shall check this for either scenario.

The bonus of the PS-recommended vendors is that they have excellent Returns policies, so it should either be free or minimal cost (compared to the price of a diamond) to return a stone. (You should ask the vendor to confirm the returns process, whether they insure returns themselves, and what charges you would need to pay for, if any.)
I'm actually surprised that this is true (based on what I've read on other posts).

I myself was dubious/doubtful, as it is only healthy to be cynical on the internet, but you would be in safe hands with the PS-recommended vendors. You can even request a skype video call with some of them - I know @Wink of High Performance Diamonds will have a chat face-to-face and show you the stone(s) under consideration if you would like to do that.

Either way, you could/should buy an ASETscope yourself - they are only about USD25 IIRC - as that way you can assess any options you have in front of you with more confidence.

EDIT: since the quote bar hides my responses I'll just copy it down here:
On the suggestion for HPD:
I think I'll take a look at their stock before I approach them, thank you for this!
EDIT: I think I've found one similar to the whiteflash one recommended by sledge but it's a little more pricey, and on hold https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9882

On the suggestion for buying an ASET Scope:
I was going to buy one but I initially thought it'd be silly although now I'm more inclined to based on the feedback I received on the Crossfire stone.

As for the 10% deposit, apparently it would only be forfeited if they believe that the proportions and specs meet the GIA certificate and I choose not to buy the stone. So if it turns out to be worse, I would not lose my deposit.
They have mentioned that the costs they incur for the insurance shipping and customs (twice over if declined) would be expensive

At the least though I want to have the custom ring designed with them as they don't charge a high premium for a platinum ring which is what I am after. (I've been quoted prices of multiples of an 18K White gold equivalent from other jewellers, shocking but I guess I can't argue as I know nothing about the process)

@srke Thank you for your input! I am somewhat swayed into buying online now I'll discuss this with Jogia Diamonds and see how they respond.

 

[srke]

As for the 10% deposit, apparently it would only be forfeited if they believe that the proportions and specs meet the GIA certificate and I choose not to buy the stone. So if it turns out to be worse, I would not lose my deposit.
They have mentioned that the costs they incur for the insurance shipping and customs (twice over if declined) would be expensive

I think unless I'm misreading this that they are being a bit disingenuous. If they bring in a stone for you after you okayed the data on the gia cert, scope images, etc, unless they bring in a completely different stone there is no reason the proportions and specs should not match. Therefore if you refuse that since you forfeit the deposit. And if they did in fact bring in the wrong stone then it would be completely unreasonable for you to incur any fee at all anyway since it would be their mistake... That means you have to make a definite choice of the diamond you want based on the numbers and what images you can get or risk losing your deposit if it turns out the diamond isn't really as nice in person. This basically seems to completely override any benefit of ordering from a local jeweller anyway, especially since you can usually find better stones elsewhere compared to most Australian vendors.

I believe there is a workaround for that provided via AUSFTA.

I think if the ausfta forms are completed correctly you don't have to pay an extra 5%duty but the 10%gst is still applicable.

@srke Thank you for your input! I am somewhat swayed into buying online now I'll discuss this with Jogia Diamonds and see how they respond.

I certainly don't want you to feel like I trying to sway you into anything one way or the other. When I made my purchases they were based on considerations important to me, which i wanted to share, but everyone has different considerations that matter to them. I just wanted to point out that what you are being offered in this case doesn't seem to be all that great.

 

[WinkHPD]

The nice thing about doing business with some of the super ideal vendors like BGD, WF, etc is they have superior customer service, well known for their ideal cut quality and easy to deal with even on overseas transactions. I am trying to remember the deal with CBI stones. I know HPD pushes them in the States, but I think there is a CBI dealer in Australia.

Hey Sledge we do not have to push CBI diamonds. They are perfectly round, so they roll nicely on their own (rim-shot!)

Regarding the above, Crafted by Infinity has not partnered with a dealer in Australia. However there are 25 retailers selling Crafted by Infinity diamonds in the USA and Europe. These are mainly showroom jewelry stores, which is where most CBI diamonds get sold. I can tell you that some of those stores serve clients in Australia. Our company, for example, has long sold into both Australia and New Zealand.

I realize people on this forum get the notion that HPD and CBI are synonymous. We are not. They craft the diamonds and deliver them to us, along with other fine jewelers in their network. And that is the way it should be, I assure you. No one here should EVER buy a diamond that Wink has cut! I fear it might be so misshapen it WOULD need to be pushed around!

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

It only costs them, what, a couple of hundred USD at most to ship a stone to them from elsewhere in the world, AIUI? Assuming that most places work on 'sale or return' in the diamond world (one of the pros would need to confirm this - @Wink? @Texas Leaguer?) they would effectively be making AUD800+ out of you if you do not go ahead.

Thank you for asking OoohShiny. Two way shipping + insurance on $10,000 value to Perth from US locations is indeed around $200. I do not know about extra taxes, tariffs or expenses for business to business.

I would take this opportunity to say, on behalf my fellow professionals, jewelers incur far more shipping and insurance expense than many people realize. Experienced Pricescopers realize that. But for anyone reading this thread it may be useful to know that a jeweler sourcing diamonds for you to look at is paying anywhere from $25-100 for one way shipment, depending on the diamond’s value. This has nothing to do with the specific charges being discussed above, I just thought it may be interesting for new shoppers to know.

Wink

 

[sledge]

You crack me up @Wink. Thank you for responding and clarifying so quickly. You're the man!

 

[OoohShiny]

Thank you for asking OoohShiny. Two way shipping + insurance on $10,000 value to Perth from US locations is indeed around $200. I do not know about extra taxes, tariffs or expenses for business to business.

I would take this opportunity to say, on behalf my fellow professionals, jewelers incur far more shipping and insurance expense than many people realize. Experienced Pricescopers realize that. But for anyone reading this thread it may be useful to know that a jeweler sourcing diamonds for you to look at is paying anywhere from $25-100 for one way shipment, depending on the diamond’s value. This has nothing to do with the specific charges being discussed above, I just thought it may be interesting for new shoppers to know.

Wink

Thank you for the very useful information, Wink, you are too kind!

I do appreciate that most? all? jewellers don't want to be spending hours with clients and hundreds on shipping stones that they then don't sell, and would want to factor in costs to cover their business expenses, but it is the lack of transparency that irks slightly. (This post is certainly not aimed at you or the other PS-recommended vendors, to be clear!)

If a jeweller said 'we are happy to bring in any stones of interest but we will need to charge shipping+insurance+$100 cover charge for the service', that would be crystal clear (pun intended? lol) and also perfectly reasonable to anyone serious or even just semi-serious about buying, being enough to discourage wanton demands for tens of stones but not so much as to be completely offputting for someone looking at just the one stone. It would also go some way to lessening the perception to some that jewellers and the industry are all overcharging and out to extract maximum profit from unknowing customers!

All IMHO, of course, and perhaps reflective of the 'good/bad old days' where there was no internet and customers were at the mercy of some less-than-honest jewellers lol

 

[Texas Leaguer]

In case it is helpful to anyone reading this thread, we created a page explaining AUSFTA with some helpful links. The page is a few years old, but we have not received any feedback that it is out of date and we are shipping to Australia on a regular basis. If any of the info is incorrect please let us know!

There are some additional links on the page to other resources.

https://www.whiteflash.com/about-di...straliaunited-states-free-trade-agreement.htm

 

[ringo865]

Your jeweler will probably get snippy if you ask him if he will set an "outside" stone (meaning, one he didn't sell you). The cost of the setting will then probably double.