Round Brilliant Questions

[Alias]

My GF prefers a classic solitaire to the double halo cushion. My search now changes to a RB - had a couple of questions:


1. Are these parameters ideal?

Table 54-58
Depth 60-62.3
Crown angle 34-35
Crown 42%
Pavilion angle 40.6-41
Pavilion depth 41.7-44.

2. Is there a real difference between a BGD Signature Round, JA True Hearts, WF ACA and a non-branded round? In other words if I find a GIA or AGS RB that has the appropriate parameters above compared to a one of the branded RB's that do not - will I be okay? If so what is the advantage of a branded RB?

3. With an RB is there a noticeable difference between a G and H?

4. Is it possible with an SI1 to get a diamond that is completely eye-clean? I know WF defines eye-clean within 10 inches but I would prefer even from 1inch. Is this possible?

I am aiming for a 1.20ct RB, G, VS2 (or SI1 completely eye-clean) in a pave setting. Still determining budget but likely around $9K-$9.5. Is this reasonable?

Thanks!

 

[heididdl]

My GF prefers a classic solitaire to the double halo cushion. My search now changes to a RB - had a couple of questions:


1. Are these parameters ideal?

Table 54-58
Depth 60-62.3
Crown angle 34-35
Crown 42%
Pavilion angle 40.6-41
Pavilion depth 41.7-44.

2. Is there a real difference between a BGD Signature Round, JA True Hearts, WF ACA and a non-branded round? In other words if I find a GIA or AGS RB that has the appropriate parameters above compared to a one of the branded RB's that do not - will I be okay? If so what is the advantage of a branded RB?

3. With an RB is there a noticeable difference between a G and H?

4. Is it possible with an SI1 to get a diamond that is completely eye-clean? I know WF defines eye-clean within 10 inches but I would prefer even from 1inch. Is this possible?

I am aiming for a 1.20ct RB, G, VS2 (or SI1 completely eye-clean) in a pave setting. Still determining budget but likely around $9K-$9.5. Is this reasonable?

Thanks!

1. Those are the usual RB specs. You can of course run the numbers of the sstones through the ACA tool on top
2. Branded is branded It depends . It is a premium to buy t he branded stones but that is not to say that you MUST or should buy a GIA or AGS stone. 3x or AGS 0 would be the best cut stone.
3 Telling the difference between G&H it depends on how color sensitive you are I will post my GIA H si1 stone for you to see. I can't tell I would think this would be a vs G stone (I am actually brining it to GIA to be recertified as it was originally certified in 1980).
4 stated above there is absolutely eye clean si1 stones.

 

[Andelain]

Here's the requirements for an ACA, which is as good as you can get...


Depth % 59.5 - 62.0
Table % 53 - 58
Girdle T-M-ST
Culet N-P-S
Polish Grade Ideal
Symmetry Grade Ideal
Crown Angle 34 - 35
Pavilion Angle 40.6 - 40.9
Star % 48 - 55
Lower Half % 76 - 80

The advantage of a branded stone like an ACA or a BGD Sig in that their requirements are even more stringent that AGS 0 or GIA Ex. They're the best of the best. Whether or not it's worth the price premium is a decision only you can make. I have several ACA;s and BGD, and some non-branded ideal cuts, and I don't regret a single branded cut purchase. As for your color question, some people can tell the diff, many can't.

 

[heididdl]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-2-07ct-i-si2-round-brilliant-engagement-ring.184261/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-2-07ct-i-si2-round-brilliant-engagement-ring.184261/[/URL]


Just for you to see PS just got a gorgous I color si2 that is eye clean see for yourself

 

[Alias]

Thanks for all the info!

I actually did get her to look at two rings - both about 1.2 in an F and and H and she seemed fine with either. I didn't, however, show it from the side which I probably should have.

Any thoughts on the budget above? Can I get an Ideal or an Excellent for that much and have it 100% eye clean?

Thanks again

 

[c-k]

1. See above - by Andelain
2. Yes - BGD & WF have a very strict cut for true H&A, if you want the best of the best cut/symmetry.
3. In a setting most could only guess. Both will be very white.
4. Yes

For your budget with a setting, I think around a 1.20 in a H - SI1 Ideal cut

 

[RockyRacoon]

Here's a really nice option that should leave enough room for a solid setting:

1.113ct, H, SI1
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.113-h-si1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104066186026



If you want something larger and are willing to spend a bit more on the stone:

1.216ct, F, SI1
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.216-f-si1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104067041016

 

[Alias]

Here's a really nice option that should leave enough room for a solid setting:

1.113ct, H, SI1
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.113-h-si1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104066186026



If you want something larger and are willing to spend a bit more on the stone:

1.216ct, F, SI1
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.216-f-si1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104067041016

Thanks for the links! I'm not sure how she would like the blue flor though. Based on what I see in the videos for the Blue diamonds it does give off some blue light.

It seems that most ideal H SI1's that have a HCA <1.0 are >$9K. I know HCA varies but is there a specific range I should aim for besides less than 2?

Thanks again all!

 

[JulieN]

H color will be fine. Usually HCA>1 for ring stones.

 

[Alias]

H color will be fine. Usually HCA>1 for ring stones.

Thanks JulieN - that really helps! I've been looking for the lowest HCA possible!

 

[c-k]

H color will be fine. Usually HCA>1 for ring stones.

Thanks JulieN - that really helps! I've been looking for the lowest HCA possible!

Many of the BGD and WF Hearts & Arrows will fall in the 1.1-2.1 HCA range

 

[Christina...]

Remember that it isn't necessary to consult the HCA if you are considering an AGS0 stone. They have already been evaluated for light performance.

 

[RockyRacoon]

Thanks for the links! I'm not sure how she would like the blue flor though. Based on what I see in the videos for the Blue diamonds it does give off some blue light.

What you are seeing in the videos has nothing to do with fluor, but with reflection.

You would only see the fluor in certain environments (full sunlight, under blacklight, etc.), and even then, only sometimes. Otherwise, the stone will look the same as any other without fluor, though the stone with fluor may face-up whiter.

There have been some folks on this site that didn't even know their stones had fluor, until many years down the road.

If the stone was actually returning blue light, it would be far more valuable/desirable!

Long story short - don't be discouraged by fluor, as it will allow you to get a top-notch stone at a better price.

 

[WinkHPD]

My GF prefers a classic solitaire to the double halo cushion. My search now changes to a RB - had a couple of questions:


1. Are these parameters ideal?

Table 54-58
Depth 60-62.3
Crown angle 34-35
Crown 42%
Pavilion angle 40.6-41
Pavilion depth 41.7-44.

2. Is there a real difference between a BGD Signature Round, JA True Hearts, WF ACA and a non-branded round? In other words if I find a GIA or AGS RB that has the appropriate parameters above compared to a one of the branded RB's that do not - will I be okay? If so what is the advantage of a branded RB?

3. With an RB is there a noticeable difference between a G and H?

4. Is it possible with an SI1 to get a diamond that is completely eye-clean? I know WF defines eye-clean within 10 inches but I would prefer even from 1inch. Is this possible?

I am aiming for a 1.20ct RB, G, VS2 (or SI1 completely eye-clean) in a pave setting. Still determining budget but likely around $9K-$9.5. Is this reasonable?

Thanks!

Buying a random GIA XXX or even an AGS 0 is nowhere near the same as buying from one of the top branded diamonds such as a Crafted by Infinity, ACA or BGD signature round. Especially with GIA papered diamonds, we don't really know what the numbers mean as they are all rounded. Let's say you have a diamond with a 41 degree pavilion angle. you don't really know if that means 41 or 41.1 or 40.9. The crown angle is even worse as it is rounded to the nearest 0.50. More importantly, that number is a rounding of several measurements all added together. That pavilion angle could be as bad as 40.6 - 41.6 and still get reported as a safeish looking 41. (Which is not in the same class, not even close.) You really just can not know what the real number is from the paper.

Sadly, diamond manufacturers have figured out how to cut for maximum weight and still sneak in with a GIA XXX rating with which to fool the unsuspecting public. They are cutting thousands of stones per month and getting even one or two extra points per stone is a tremendous incentive to cut to the outer (lower) edges of the cut grade which results in more money for them and less beauty for you.

Human nature dictates that generic GIA XXX are sloppily produced because they are churned out so rapidly and trend towards the deep, light leaking end of things to maximize carat weight for SSS. So much so that Paul Slegers of Crafted by Infinity often buys GIA XXX cut diamonds with an eye towards recutting them to be Crafted by Infinity Diamonds. He says that the weight loss experienced runs from the exceptional 3% to the more common twelve to fifteen percent to bring them to his degree of cut precision. Further, he tells me that the trend is towards deeper/worse starting quality as mass producers figure out how to maximize the weight while retaining the GIA XXX rating. AGS 0 is a stricter grade, but still very wide by my standards and there is no accountability whatsoever for the fine-tuning of cut-precision. Paul has also recut AGS0s to improve them to his standards.

Frankly, most diamond manufacturers do not care to fine tune their diamonds, precisely because no one rewards them for doing this so they are not only not held accountable for cutting them to the top of the cut grades, THEY ARE REWARDED FOR CUTTING TO THE BOTTOM OF THE GRADE!

Finally, the selectivity of brands goes farther than the measurement question. If you’d like to see a more thorough discourse on this, John Pollard made an excellent post the other day in this thread about the realities of selection which are most often hidden from consumers:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/#p3595974']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/#p3595974[/URL]

Re your question about completely eye clean from one inch. Probably for most consumers, especially from the top, since only a handful of people can even focus at the one inch distance. If you are near sighted enough to be able to focus at 1" you are probably seeing at 1.5 to 3x vision at that focal distance. When I was younger I could focus at that depth, pre presbyopia, and could in fact see many inclusions that most people could only see with a loupe. It was nice while it lasted, but now I use a loupe like everyone else. If you are wanting eye clean from every angle, you will need to either get extremely lucky or go to a VS2 or even a VS1. The way a round brilliant diamond is cut hides many inclusions from the top, but readily exposes them from the sides where even small inclusions can be seen in profile without the busy sparkles that make your diamond beautiful from the top.

You are allowed to set your tolerances to any level you want, but I suspect you will find it very easy to see the differences in a randomly selected GIA XXX and many AGS 0s from a truly magnificently cut top branded diamond and incredibly difficult to see a tiny inclusion at 1 inch. I think your priority out to be that which is going to be easily seen by almost every one looking at your diamond and knowing the extra satisfaction that comes with buying a product that truly is the best rather than one that is just kind-of-sort-of-if-no-one-is-really-looking pretending to be the best.

Just my thoughts.

Wink

 

[Alias]

Thanks for the links! I'm not sure how she would like the blue flor though. Based on what I see in the videos for the Blue diamonds it does give off some blue light.

What you are seeing in the videos has nothing to do with fluor, but with reflection.

You would only see the fluor in certain environments (full sunlight, under blacklight, etc.), and even then, only sometimes. Otherwise, the stone will look the same as any other without fluor, though the stone with fluor may face-up whiter.

There have been some folks on this site that didn't even know their stones had fluor, until many years down the road.

If the stone was actually returning blue light, it would be far more valuable/desirable!

Long story short - don't be discouraged by fluor, as it will allow you to get a top-notch stone at a better price.

That's actually quite interesting - thanks for tip! If they possibly face-up whiter, why are they at a better price I wonder?

Thanks

 

[Alias]

My GF prefers a classic solitaire to the double halo cushion. My search now changes to a RB - had a couple of questions:


1. Are these parameters ideal?

Table 54-58
Depth 60-62.3
Crown angle 34-35
Crown 42%
Pavilion angle 40.6-41
Pavilion depth 41.7-44.

2. Is there a real difference between a BGD Signature Round, JA True Hearts, WF ACA and a non-branded round? In other words if I find a GIA or AGS RB that has the appropriate parameters above compared to a one of the branded RB's that do not - will I be okay? If so what is the advantage of a branded RB?

3. With an RB is there a noticeable difference between a G and H?

4. Is it possible with an SI1 to get a diamond that is completely eye-clean? I know WF defines eye-clean within 10 inches but I would prefer even from 1inch. Is this possible?

I am aiming for a 1.20ct RB, G, VS2 (or SI1 completely eye-clean) in a pave setting. Still determining budget but likely around $9K-$9.5. Is this reasonable?

Thanks!

Buying a random GIA XXX or even an AGS 0 is nowhere near the same as buying from one of the top branded diamonds such as a Crafted by Infinity, ACA or BGD signature round. Especially with GIA papered diamonds, we don't really know what the numbers mean as they are all rounded. Let's say you have a diamond with a 41 degree pavilion angle. you don't really know if that means 41 or 41.1 or 40.9. The crown angle is even worse as it is rounded to the nearest 0.50. More importantly, that number is a rounding of several measurements all added together. That pavilion angle could be as bad as 40.6 - 41.6 and still get reported as a safeish looking 41. (Which is not in the same class, not even close.) You really just can not know what the real number is from the paper.

Sadly, diamond manufacturers have figured out how to cut for maximum weight and still sneak in with a GIA XXX rating with which to fool the unsuspecting public. They are cutting thousands of stones per month and getting even one or two extra points per stone is a tremendous incentive to cut to the outer (lower) edges of the cut grade which results in more money for them and less beauty for you.

Human nature dictates that generic GIA XXX are sloppily produced because they are churned out so rapidly and trend towards the deep, light leaking end of things to maximize carat weight for SSS. So much so that Paul Slegers of Crafted by Infinity often buys GIA XXX cut diamonds with an eye towards recutting them to be Crafted by Infinity Diamonds. He says that the weight loss experienced runs from the exceptional 3% to the more common twelve to fifteen percent to bring them to his degree of cut precision. Further, he tells me that the trend is towards deeper/worse starting quality as mass producers figure out how to maximize the weight while retaining the GIA XXX rating. AGS 0 is a stricter grade, but still very wide by my standards and there is no accountability whatsoever for the fine-tuning of cut-precision. Paul has also recut AGS0s to improve them to his standards.

Frankly, most diamond manufacturers do not care to fine tune their diamonds, precisely because no one rewards them for doing this so they are not only not held accountable for cutting them to the top of the cut grades, THEY ARE REWARDED FOR CUTTING TO THE BOTTOM OF THE GRADE!

Finally, the selectivity of brands goes farther than the measurement question. If you’d like to see a more thorough discourse on this, John Pollard made an excellent post the other day in this thread about the realities of selection which are most often hidden from consumers:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/#p3595974']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/#p3595974[/URL]

Re your question about completely eye clean from one inch. Probably for most consumers, especially from the top, since only a handful of people can even focus at the one inch distance. If you are near sighted enough to be able to focus at 1" you are probably seeing at 1.5 to 3x vision at that focal distance. When I was younger I could focus at that depth, pre presbyopia, and could in fact see many inclusions that most people could only see with a loupe. It was nice while it lasted, but now I use a loupe like everyone else. If you are wanting eye clean from every angle, you will need to either get extremely lucky or go to a VS2 or even a VS1. The way a round brilliant diamond is cut hides many inclusions from the top, but readily exposes them from the sides where even small inclusions can be seen in profile without the busy sparkles that make your diamond beautiful from the top.

You are allowed to set your tolerances to any level you want, but I suspect you will find it very easy to see the differences in a randomly selected GIA XXX and many AGS 0s from a truly magnificently cut top branded diamond and incredibly difficult to see a tiny inclusion at 1 inch. I think your priority out to be that which is going to be easily seen by almost every one looking at your diamond and knowing the extra satisfaction that comes with buying a product that truly is the best rather than one that is just kind-of-sort-of-if-no-one-is-really-looking pretending to be the best.

Just my thoughts.

Wink

Thanks a lot, Wink! Quite the informative post - both yours and John's. I would prefer a branded diamond as, like most people, I want the best for my money. I was however considering other options like a GIA triple Ex.

I agree that perhaps more often then not, a branded diamond, from an overall perspective, may be better. However, is it not possible to obtain a tripe Ex. that maybe equivalent or is it just a rarity?

Thanks!

 

[Alias]

Remember that it isn't necessary to consult the HCA if you are considering an AGS0 stone. They have already been evaluated for light performance.

This is good to know...however, say I am comparing two ACA's or BGD's..wouldn't a good way to compare them be using the HCA score, all else equal? thanks!

 

[JulieN]

No, that is not the point of HCA.

 

[teobdl]

Except in rare cases, the HCA will hardly tell you a lick of difference between a ACA and BGS diamond: they are cut to the same parameters, with BGD sign being even tighter (or so I'm told by BG staff). Brian Gavin established ACA's cut guidelines and then left to create his own company.

 

[WinkHPD]

My GF prefers a classic solitaire to the double halo cushion. My search now changes to a RB - had a couple of questions:


1. Are these parameters ideal?

Table 54-58
Depth 60-62.3
Crown angle 34-35
Crown 42%
Pavilion angle 40.6-41
Pavilion depth 41.7-44.

2. Is there a real difference between a BGD Signature Round, JA True Hearts, WF ACA and a non-branded round? In other words if I find a GIA or AGS RB that has the appropriate parameters above compared to a one of the branded RB's that do not - will I be okay? If so what is the advantage of a branded RB?

3. With an RB is there a noticeable difference between a G and H?

4. Is it possible with an SI1 to get a diamond that is completely eye-clean? I know WF defines eye-clean within 10 inches but I would prefer even from 1inch. Is this possible?

I am aiming for a 1.20ct RB, G, VS2 (or SI1 completely eye-clean) in a pave setting. Still determining budget but likely around $9K-$9.5. Is this reasonable?

Thanks!

Buying a random GIA XXX or even an AGS 0 is nowhere near the same as buying from one of the top branded diamonds such as a Crafted by Infinity, ACA or BGD signature round. Especially with GIA papered diamonds, we don't really know what the numbers mean as they are all rounded. Let's say you have a diamond with a 41 degree pavilion angle. you don't really know if that means 41 or 41.1 or 40.9. The crown angle is even worse as it is rounded to the nearest 0.50. More importantly, that number is a rounding of several measurements all added together. That pavilion angle could be as bad as 40.6 - 41.6 and still get reported as a safeish looking 41. (Which is not in the same class, not even close.) You really just can not know what the real number is from the paper.

Sadly, diamond manufacturers have figured out how to cut for maximum weight and still sneak in with a GIA XXX rating with which to fool the unsuspecting public. They are cutting thousands of stones per month and getting even one or two extra points per stone is a tremendous incentive to cut to the outer (lower) edges of the cut grade which results in more money for them and less beauty for you.

Human nature dictates that generic GIA XXX are sloppily produced because they are churned out so rapidly and trend towards the deep, light leaking end of things to maximize carat weight for SSS. So much so that Paul Slegers of Crafted by Infinity often buys GIA XXX cut diamonds with an eye towards recutting them to be Crafted by Infinity Diamonds. He says that the weight loss experienced runs from the exceptional 3% to the more common twelve to fifteen percent to bring them to his degree of cut precision. Further, he tells me that the trend is towards deeper/worse starting quality as mass producers figure out how to maximize the weight while retaining the GIA XXX rating. AGS 0 is a stricter grade, but still very wide by my standards and there is no accountability whatsoever for the fine-tuning of cut-precision. Paul has also recut AGS0s to improve them to his standards.

Frankly, most diamond manufacturers do not care to fine tune their diamonds, precisely because no one rewards them for doing this so they are not only not held accountable for cutting them to the top of the cut grades, THEY ARE REWARDED FOR CUTTING TO THE BOTTOM OF THE GRADE!

Finally, the selectivity of brands goes farther than the measurement question. If you’d like to see a more thorough discourse on this, John Pollard made an excellent post the other day in this thread about the realities of selection which are most often hidden from consumers:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/#p3595974']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/#p3595974[/URL]

Re your question about completely eye clean from one inch. Probably for most consumers, especially from the top, since only a handful of people can even focus at the one inch distance. If you are near sighted enough to be able to focus at 1" you are probably seeing at 1.5 to 3x vision at that focal distance. When I was younger I could focus at that depth, pre presbyopia, and could in fact see many inclusions that most people could only see with a loupe. It was nice while it lasted, but now I use a loupe like everyone else. If you are wanting eye clean from every angle, you will need to either get extremely lucky or go to a VS2 or even a VS1. The way a round brilliant diamond is cut hides many inclusions from the top, but readily exposes them from the sides where even small inclusions can be seen in profile without the busy sparkles that make your diamond beautiful from the top.

You are allowed to set your tolerances to any level you want, but I suspect you will find it very easy to see the differences in a randomly selected GIA XXX and many AGS 0s from a truly magnificently cut top branded diamond and incredibly difficult to see a tiny inclusion at 1 inch. I think your priority out to be that which is going to be easily seen by almost every one looking at your diamond and knowing the extra satisfaction that comes with buying a product that truly is the best rather than one that is just kind-of-sort-of-if-no-one-is-really-looking pretending to be the best.

Just my thoughts.

Wink

Thanks a lot, Wink! Quite the informative post - both yours and John's. I would prefer a branded diamond as, like most people, I want the best for my money. I was however considering other options like a GIA triple Ex.

I agree that perhaps more often then not, a branded diamond, from an overall perspective, may be better. However, is it not possible to obtain a tripe Ex. that maybe equivalent or is it just a rarity?

Thanks!

It's possible that the sun will not come up tomorrow, but I would not bet much on it...

 

[c-k]

Thanks a lot, Wink! Quite the informative post - both yours and John's. I would prefer a branded diamond as, like most people, I want the best for my money. I was however considering other options like a GIA triple Ex.

I agree that perhaps more often then not, a branded diamond, from an overall perspective, may be better. However, is it not possible to obtain a tripe Ex. that maybe equivalent or is it just a rarity?

Thanks!

Is a particular GIA XXX stone an equivalent, I guess if it meets all the same standards of say that WF ACA stone it would be.

 

[Alias]

Good to know

JulieN, I think I understand what you are saying and please correct me if I do not.... The HCA calc is simply another tool, like an ASET or IdealScope, it provides valuable information to help eliminate diamonds from a list, for example. However, nothing can replace that of a first hand look and analysis of a diamond and research on the cut (i.e., knowing it is ideal such as the ACA).

 

[WinkHPD]

Thanks a lot, Wink! Quite the informative post - both yours and John's. I would prefer a branded diamond as, like most people, I want the best for my money. I was however considering other options like a GIA triple Ex.

I agree that perhaps more often then not, a branded diamond, from an overall perspective, may be better. However, is it not possible to obtain a tripe Ex. that maybe equivalent or is it just a rarity?

Thanks!

Is a particular GIA XXX stone an equivalent, I guess if it meets all the same standards of say that WF ACA stone it would be.

The problem is that there are things that the paper will not tell you such as what are the actual angles of each measurement rather than just the averages that are a big part in making a top quality diamond. Since AGS diamonds sell at a premium to GIA diamonds, would it not make more sense for a GIA diamond to be graded by AGS if you really thought it would get the AGS0 cut grade?

Even with AGS0 grades, you are going to have many that are hanging around at the bottom of the grade, and those few that are at the top of the grade, and how do you know?

That is why top branded diamonds not only cost more, but are worth more. They have been done correctly. You may occasionally find the "Lucky Accident" but it just is not very likely.

Wink