Rock Weary In Canada

[Papermaker]

First, let me say how useful I have found this site in helping build my general knowledge on the subject at hand - very much appreciated.

I have been researching stones on the web and locally for a few weeks now, and I am finding there are a number of frustrations out there as many of you have stated. For example, many retailers don''t seem to be able to provide the detailed information that is (almost) available on many of the web sites. Secondly, pricing does not always make sense relative to quality.

You see, I am an engineer, and as such I am cursed with the fact that I will have to get into all these angles and proportions etc., and I have the unrelenting need to find the most "efficient" piece of geometry for the job - unfortunately, my wallet is not as unrelenting!

Anyway, I would appreciate some advice fro others out there on a few things. Responses from Canadians and their experiences get additional "comfort leve" points for me!

Q1: Why are there no decent on line Canadian wholesalers? They all "go through" the US, generating all that crazy excise tax stuff ans shippig hassle to get things up here. Even when they are located in Toronto!

Q2: How can you get a good idea of what the inclusions actually look like? This would seem important to me. In my walk around search here, I have seen some SI''s that I would call "inconsequential" due to location of the inclusion (easily hidden by a prong for example), which are as good as VS''s. Many of the on line sites don''t go into greater detail on their stones (certificates with inclusion maps, microscopic photography, etc) that would be very useful to me. For example, it''s easy enough to get a hold of Table and total depth in most cases, but the really useful stuff like pav anc crown angle is not always there.

Q3: Given Q2 above, what is the general satisfaction level out there with on line purchases and the old "take it to a local gemologist to confirm quality scenario", or your money back?

To give you an idea on the Canadian buying hell, here''s a couple of things I found locally compared to what I see on the web:

STONE 1
All information from IGI certificate which I viewed with the stone
Round Brilliant
Weight: 1.04 C
Total Depth: 60.8%
Table: 56%
Girdle: Thin to Medium
Cutlet: None
Finish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Colour: E
Clarity: SI-2
Fluorescence: None
Dimensions: 6.51 X 6.58 X 3.98

This stone looked very crisp to me. There was a loupe but no firescope.
Jeweller wanted $8300 CDN mounted in in an 18K white gold Tiffaney, all taxes included.
Backing out the taxes here (14%), excise if it were to come from the US (10%), say $250 CDN to mount it, and converting to US, (at 1.4 rate), the price for this stone in USD should be $4565. I can still find stones of this quality on line for cheaper, which makes me think I could get an SI1 for the same price, or maybe drop to an F colour and a VS-2

What does everyone think?

STONE 2
Canadian diamond with a Canadian Certficate, less information
Round Brilliant
Weight: 1.16 C
Cut: noted as "ideal"
Finish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Colour: G
Clarity: I-1
Fluorescence: None

This one I looked at under the firescope as well as the loupe. The H and A''s were pretty good, but there were enough feathers in there that I was a little turned off. Now here''s the kicker - he banged around on his calculator for a while and said, $8300! Taxes in but unmounted! This is what I meant in my intro - Stone 1 above is very likely to have decent H&A without "being" an H&A (my engineering sense tells me this!)as compared to Stone 2.

Anyway, that''s enough for a first timer
Looking forward to your responses!

 

[pulp_princess]

I have absolutely no idea why Canadian retailers can't or won't provide detailed information. Perhaps the equipment is too expensive, but then, considering the cost of the goods, it's reasonable to want to see the inclusions, light performance, etc. It might just be ignorance, since many jewellers are old family businesses, but then there are trade shows and they could find the information if they wanted to. (Maybe most of the trade shows are in the US?) I've asked one jeweller and he said "You can't believe everything on the internet." That may be true, but it would also offer an advantage over other jewellers in Canada when it does happen. It hasn't caught on here yet. Maybe it's like watermelon flavoured jello. Bill Cosby was advertising it for a year before it came to Dominion.

I'm glad that some jewellers offer detailed information on stones and I would feel more comfortable buying online with jewellers that magnify the inclusions and can send you pictures of something that matches the certificate. With most jewellers in Canada, you could switch the certs and you'd never know. You could spend the same amount of money on a car or house (used, rented, new) but you have much more information before dropping that kind of money. If I were you, I would have a look at websites that offer the information, get a feel for what you're looking for and buy from a dealer that can show you what you're paying for. Ideally, I'd love to go and ask someone to see the exact stone I was considering under an idealscope, a firescope, etc., just so I know that what I'm buying is the one I'm looking at. Show me the colour rating on a colorimeter, the inclusions under the microscope, etc. And I know how much engineers like their toys!

Another thing about buying over the internet is NO TAX!!! Depending on your province, the tax could kill you! Buy what you like and where someone can show you what you're paying for. (How many points does this Canadian get?

)

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Heh heh heh... Another engineer. When I was in the business of buying and selling the engineer was always the customer you wanted to make sure you had already eaten lunch before waiting on.

With your exacting bent of mind, you might be more comfortable shopping through one of the highly educational, thoroughly documentated, heavy on photographs and images vendors that you'll find frequenting PriceScope.

As an independent appraiser I can't recommend anyone in particular, but I'm sure you'll get a good list of recommendations from consumers who have completed very satisfactory internet purchases.

Good luck, and above all, have fun while you're at it.

 

[Papermaker]

Thanks for the thoughts
Comments on the stone?

 

[niceice]

No comments on the stone Papermaker because (as you've indicated) you haven't provided the crown and pavilion angle measurements for the stones and thus nobody can "really" provide you with an accurate opinion... A few of the on-line retailers like GOG and ourselves provide detailed clarity photographs and proportions analysis for the diamonds within our inventory... Most other on-line retailers are capable of providing such photographs upon request... We sell quite a lot of diamonds to people in Canada so we imagine that buying a diamond on-line is going to save you a little money even with the Canadian Excise Tax and the GST that is imposed on diamond imports into Canada. Good luck.

 

[Papermaker]

Thanks nice ice
Went to the site and GOG, like what I see there
Re: coming to Canada, I have heard different stories re PST and GST
Does it depend on the province?
Some have told me it's only the PST. Others only the GST. Others still both.
Which is it?
Without knowing this it's hard to assess the actual deal....

 

[pulp_princess]

----------------
On 9/2/2003 11:52:30 AM Papermaker wrote:

Re: coming to Canada, I have heard different stories re PST and GST
Does it depend on the province?
Some have told me it's only the PST. Others only the GST. Others still both.
Which is it?
Without knowing this it's hard to assess the actual deal....

----------------

I bought a sapphire, and I didn't have to pay either GST or PST. I returned it, so I guess it's a moot point. I hear the GST applies, but I've never bought a diamond from across the border yet. There are varying stories and I've heard about paying GST and I've heard paying no tax at all!

 

[blakeo]

Dunno if this is of interest, but I'm based in Toronto and had a good experience with USA Certed Diamonds and Superbcert. Check out the thread https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/buying-a-diamond-in-toronto-canada-my-experience.8107/

 

[Papermaker]

One step ahead of ya Blakeo - I read your thread and thought it was great

One question though - how important was it to you that you actually got to sit down with them becasue the were in T.O.?

There is really no such option here in VAN as near as I can tell...

 

[blakeo]

I think that the opportunity to sit down at USA Certed played a very large part in my decision to go with them for the diamond. This is my first time ever of buying anything over the internet so perhaps I was being over-cautious.

Still, my good experience with Martin gave me the confidence to buy the setting sight-unseen from superbcert.

Looking back, I still spent way more than I originally budgeted for myself and the savings were good but not spectacular (all up about $4000 less than the same thing spec from Tiffany and probably even less compared to your average jeweller) but the thing is I know the quality/specs of the diamond, I'm happy with what I got for the money and I know that I wasn't ripped off. Also, there is a certain level of feel-good factor that she will never know the effort that went in to getting just the right diamond and setting for her.

If I had to do it over again I would still buy over the internet and wouldn't be so picky about it being a Canadian based company (more important is the 'no questions asked' return policy).

Another important point for me was that we are looking at travelling in the near future and I wanted all the correct documentation for getting through customs going out of and getting back into Canada - this is why I didn't just get the diamond and setting sent to a FedEx in Buffalo and nip over the boarder to pick it up.

 

[ice_is_nice]

I seem to recall a posting a while back that discussed whether or not GST and PST are applicable to your purchase if you buy from the U.S. There is of course also the matter of the 10% excise tax to consider. Something of interest that I just found out about (but have not confirmed) is that if you were to purchase something from Ontario you would not have to pay Ontario tax since it sould be an out-of-province transaction. I'm not sure, hjowever, if the B.C. PST would then apply but I don't think the Ontario retailer would be collecting B.C. taxes.

I know what you're thinking... this is as clear as mud!