Riddle me this

[thefitter]

Two diamonds- Both 1.0 caret, F color, VS1 clarity, depth, table, cutlet blah-blah-blah all similar. One is an Eightstar, Hearts and Arrows, Hearts of Fire, Superideal or whatever… The other is just a plain old certified GIA or AGS Ideal cut.

Can you really tell the difference without a brilliance scope, firescope, microscope or any other infrared, electron, laser, ultra superduperscope?

And is this worth the $2000-$3000 extra. Or is this the wrong venue to ask this type of question and I should check Consumers Report?

Can you tell this is driving me crazy? I did not go through this when I bought her a car for our anniversary, and that was almost 10X more money!

 

[Hodne]

Been wondering the same thing my self.

 

[Mara]

Personally yes I think you can tell the differences between a regular AGS0 with nice proportions and a H&A stone, whether it be branded or unbranded. Is it going to be a difference that's SO visible that it's worth $2-3k? No I don't think so. But then again...I have found AGS0 regular stones that are priced maybe $500 less than a similar H&A stone...so if the price difference is more minimal, hands down I would go H&A.




But $2-3k? Depending on the amounts and % it comes out to. For example, if you are talking about a $25k stone, spending $28k may not break the bank. But if you are talking a typical 1c stone for around $7k H&A vs $4k AGS0...yes that is a huge difference! Almost 50% savings. However, if you ARE talking 1c stones...depending on what your criteria is, the $2-3k does not sound right for markup. That's more HOF style. HOF is more around a 40% markup over H&A unbranded, as is EightStar. So you're not really comparing apples to apples in terms of price.




For example:


1c AGS0 $5000


1c H&A Unbranded AGS0 $6000


1c H&A Branded AGS0 (e.g. ACA or SC) $6500


1c HOF H&A AGS0 $10000


1c EightStar H&A GIA EX ~$10000


1c Tiffany AGS0 $10000




Just estimates and obviously depends on color/clarity and all that, but assuming they are all the same, say something like a H VS. So is the $1k worth it from AGS0 to H&A? I think so, but maybe not to others. Is the $5k above AGS0 worth it for a HOF/8*/Tiff? I don't think so, but obviously some do. Etc. It really depends on your preferences, your priorities, your eye...what you want to do with your money.




Good luck!

 

[pqcollectibles]

Leota, a PS Forum Member, has ACA's, a HOF, and went in with her sisters to buy their mother a GOG diamond for Christmas. Leota just got her HOF set with ACA accent diamonds. I know they are all Super Ideals, but someone asked her about the differences in the diamonds.

Here's a link to Leota's thread in the "Show Me the Ring" Forum. If you scroll down the page a bit, you can read what she thinks of the different diamonds.

Jax172 has an e-ring with a GOG diamond and just bought an 8* for a pendant. That's another Forum Member that's seen different Super Ideals together, live and in person.

The best way to decide what is right for you, is to get out and look at the diamonds in person. Maybe you will see a significant difference between a Super Ideal and a well cut diamond. Maybe you won't.

Diamond preference is not objective. It's very subjective. Your eyes are just that, your eyes. Just like finding a color range appeals to your eye, you have to find a performance level that suits you as well.

 

[Hest88]

I took a brief look, but am too lazy right now to seek perfect examples. From my impression, though, I don't remember unbranded or regularly priced branded H&As (such as ACA) costing *that* much more than an AGS0. Yes, as Mara said, when you start getting into the HOF or something like an Eightstar (which incidently is not marketed as a H&A) that's completely different. It's more akin to comparing a Tiffany diamond to the same diamond from a regular jeweler.

 

[thefitter]

OK! So you guys are adding even more numbers to my equation. I did not know there was a difference between an H&A branded and unbranded. What are the brands? I thought Hearts of Fire was just Shreve & co name for H&A. Where would Blue Niles Signature Collection fit in here?
And, I have no idea what GOG and ACA is.

My original example was between a regular GIA or AGS Ideal and an H&A from the same online vendor from Pricescope. The difference was actually $2300.

I understand the point of looking at these things yourself. But hey, I’ll bet I can’t tell the difference between a diamond and a piece of an old 7up bottle. Wait, that would be an emerald right? That said I need to know that what I’m getting is good without being too stupid with the money.

Screw it I’m just going to get her another BMW!

 

[elmo]

----------------
On 2/1/2004 9:33:26 PM Mara wrote:

Dirt Cheap Diamonds has a signature collection that is what I like to call 'almost H&A'. Well cut stones that exhibit some pattern of H&A but not crisp or true enough to be TRUE H&A (that meaning what some of the sticklers like GOG or NI would choose to sell as H&A stones)
----------------

There is an *excellent* chance that you nor anyone else will see any difference at all between someone's "almost" h&a that's nicely cut and a so-called "true" h&a. That's where I'd put my money.

 

[Mara]

I highly agree elmo... but only if the 'almost H&A' is cheaper than the H&A, which is not always the case. I find it really depends on the diamond...you can find comparisons that run the gamut and in most cases the almost H&A is cheaper..b.ut I have seen the odd one where it's the same as a branded H&A.

 

[valeria101]

I might not understand the question correctly... but here is my take:

Reading your question, the superficial meaning I grasp would be: "what is the difference between two IDENTICAL diamonds, one branded and one not". This readily translates into "what difference doe sit make for cut quality if I give the diamond a name" - No comment on this version

.

Surely you had some type of difference in mind.

First of all, I would never pay attention to the brand - this is just a selection tool as any other, and not the least biased. One could say that the quality of branded diamonds cannot be matched by unbranded ones. Is this what your question should be read as? My answer - they'd wish, the "branders". To put this in yet another way, going for a brand may save someone some time searching and learning and then worrying about quality. A brand is sort of a guarantee, but not necessarily a monopoly on quality. According to any measures of diamond cut quality, the available brands do not have exclusivity on cut quality.

Second, A brand holder who does not cut the diamonds, may not have any serious economic incentive to select an extremely narrow set of cut parameters or measurable quality benchmarks alone. There would be some visible variations in the difference aspects of the cut, if not blatant divergence form what is perceived and defined as "quality" by the brand. Given this, the chances to find similar merchandise outside the "brand" increase.

I do suspect that diamonds themselves could not care less. If a seller does not attempt to promote his wares world-wide, than just providing excellent quality and excellent, verifiable prove and communication of the quality of his goods would do just about as well for the business as a brand. I trust that everyone agrees branding is a business decision and has precious little to do with the quality of the diamonds sold.

How about price? Of course there should be a premium on quality, given the extra cost to achieve it, brand or no brand. But diamonds are not bread: so the perception of quality corresponds to the price the buyer is persuaded to pay one way or another, rather than to whatever the merchandise looks like. Aside the evident time-saving quality, this is the only other way brands literally "add value", wouldn't you agree?

 

[someguy]

I don't think that thefitter was referring to the difference between a branded and non-branded H&A diamond

If he was, I completely agree with valeria101. However, it seems to me that thefitter was asking if there was a visual difference between an AGS0 graded diamond (not H&A) and the real McCoy H&A diamond. Although I have limited diamond viewing experience, my take on this is that you could see a diff because it seems to me that the brightest flashes and sparkles come from the arrows in my

fiancée's

ring...

However, things are never that simple because there are a lot of diamonds out there which are almost H&A. They don't quite make it because, say, one of the hearts are a little smaller or something like that. If you could find one of these, chances are that you'll be getting the best of both worlds...

 

[fire&ice]

To muddy the waters even more to the issue of branding. Since Debeers seems to be favoring those site holders that will market (I read "brand" into that), I think we will be seeing more branding. I wonder if this will lead to a glut of brand stones. Not necessarily exceptionally cut stones.

 

[Rhino]

----------------
On 2/2/2004 9:44:38 AM fire&ice wrote:





To muddy the waters even more to the issue of branding. Since Debeers seems to be favoring those site holders that will market (I read 'brand' into that), I think we will be seeing more branding. I wonder if this will lead to a glut of brand stones. Not necessarily exceptionally cut stones.
----------------

From what I've been reading in the trade journals f&i, it appears that this is going to happen. What is sad is that there will be little more to these brands than a schnazzy name.

 

[Rhino]

Greetings "thefitter",

In short ...

The branded H&A stones that sell at those *premium* markups can be had at much lower prices and generally not at the disparaging price difference that you've stated (2-3k) when you go the route of the Internet. There are some brands out there that are tailored specifically for the B&M environment where you can expect to pay those premiums. HoF, 8*, Isee2, and these are diamonds that are also generally guaranteed by a technological or optical "benchmark" guaranteeing a certain level of optical performance. HoF's, LEO's, etc. are generally accompanied by GemEx BrillianceScope Reports showing strength/intensity of light return. 8*'s with FireScope, Isee2 (which they don't really push the Isee2 name but encourage the store to push it's own name with their trademard logo), the Isee2 technology. When you put the superior product together with the technologhy showing the superiority of their product & the service of the local B&M this all accrues to the *price* you can be expected to pay when walking into a B&M.

If I were a consumer and had completely ruled out the Internet as a venue for my purchase these are the choices one is faced with and these are the comparisons you'd have to weigh in your decision.

Considering this ... if I had a choice of purchasing say an Isee2 stone or an EightStar stone (although both have different pricing structures) vs a common kaka diamond you WOULD see the difference and it WOULD be worth it IMO. When confronted with the choice of sacrificing either clarity/color or CUT I would most definetely sacrifice a clarity or color grade (or both if faced with the choice) to get a superior cut quality.

When you open up the venue of the Internet for your purchase then a whole different world of options are open up to you and what the garbage cut qualities were selling for in some of the locals you now find that some of the most superior stones are falling closer to THOSE prices (or even less expensive) rather than the thousands more you were looking at in local stores. This is where doing your homework comes in and rewards you. When most people realize how little the price difference is on the net for a true H&A vs an "almost" H&A most people opt for the higher valued stone since there is generally not a lot of difference in price though not all the time of course.

Peace,

 

[thefitter]

First off let me say thanks to everyone for the advice. When I first started this thread I was trying to see if you could tell the difference between a regular Ideal and the other “super” cuts. Then I realized that there was even a great deal of difference within the super cut range- unbranded, 8*, HOF, ACA etc.,

Part of me wants to get the absolute best I can no matter what and just dive in and buy a 8* or comparable. I want my wife to have a rock that outshines everything put next to it. The rational side is trying to temper that with
a little savvy thinking. Because if you really can’t tell the difference with the naked eye it’s just a waste of money.

So I’m going to go out and take a look myself and see what I can see or not. We have a lot of high end B&M stores in the San Francisco bay area. I know were there is an 8* store in Orinda. And I know about Tiffany and Cartier. Would anybody care to recommend some others?

Thanks

 

[Mara]

Actually...to respond to this and your PM....8* stones are available at Willow Glen Jewelers...so you don't need to go all the way to Orinda to see them. Call up WG and find out what they have in stock, and see what else they can bring in for you to view. I saw 2 of them when I visited. To be really honest, I was SO not impressed. I was expecting something really magnificent for that price point and yes there was a slight difference between the 8* they showed me and an 'ideal' regular stone....but nothing worth an extra $5k!!! Some may disagree.

So when you say you want to rush out and buy your gal the best, to me that means the BEST CUT stone, because you can buy a Tiffany stone, and it may not be as nice as a really well-cut H&A stone. That is the reality. A brand is a brand. A branded stone does not mean that the stone is top notch. It just means it's got a name slapped onto it. Do your homework in terms of #'s and pictures, reports, images, etc and then make the decision. There will be great branded stones, great unbranded stones....horrible branded stones and horrible unbranded stones. Let the particular STONE tell it's own tale..and don't use the names to make your decision.

Oh and since you are checking out all the brands for comparison, check out the HOF stones too. I know that a jewelry store at Valley Fair carries them (downstairs near Louis Vuitton), and also there is one in Cupertino too..a smaller mom & pop type store. Have to say though, it will be hard to see all the branded stones like that and compare to regular 'ideal' stones. Because you may think..wow HOF is the best, way to go, but a H&A well-cut, unbranded could still knock it's socks off. How will you know unless you see that too? Hard comparisons.

 

[thefitter]

Let me share with you all some advise I have received recently regarding my up coming diamond purchase. It will give you an idea of some of the influences I have to contend with. It comes from a co-worker who had taken the time to research and purchase a nice tasteful 1 caret, Ideal, E, VS2. (HE did not delve quite as far as I have into this complicated subject.) His fiancée commented that it seemed small compared to her friends’ 2-3 carets. He tried to explain to her that her ring was a much better quality and cost almost as much as those yellow heavily included monsters. The bottom line is she did not get it and he ended upgrading to a 1.5 of similar quality. What he told me today is that women don’t care about cut, color and true quality. They want a big shiny rock in a blue box. He said when my wife shows it to her friends nobody is going to understand or care what an 8* is. They are just going to look at the size and brand.

First of all let me say that I think he’s wrong, but his statement does have merit. A lot of people feel this way. Thankfully my wife is nothing like his. (Thank god, thank god, thank god!) I mean we got married without her even having an engagement ring because we were both in school. And I’ve never heard one peep out of her about not having things. She’s a very grounded woman. I could give her a piece of glass glued to a ring of copper and she’d love it because it came from me. However there is a side of me that wants her to be able to show off. But if the average person can’t see just how great an 8* looks next to a regular rock then the extra expense is difficult to rationalize sometimes. It’s like most people know BMW makes fantastic automobiles, but not everybody in that group can tell you have an M3 and what that car is capable of. So basically I’m hoping that you can really see the difference between an 8* and a regular cut. I would like her to be able to put her ring next to one of those big yellow monsters and have it just blow them away to the point that the everyone asks her what kind of diamond that is. And she’d be able to say "That’s an 8*. One of if not the best cut diamond in the world".

So what do all you fine people think about this? Am I expecting too much from the diamonds and maybe even from the people?

 

[Snappy]

i just saw a heart and arrow stone. however when i ran the numbers in the HCA the stone only scored around 5 or so. i didnt think the ring looked that sparkly. Is a heart and arrow always worth the price? does it mean more brilliance or sparkle?

 

[Mara]

If it wasn't a real H&A then it would score 5 on the HCA. So many people slap the label on and don't even know what it really means. There is no 'regulation' for H&A designation! If a stone exhibits a true, crisp, symmetrical H&A pattern, then chances are VERY GOOD it will be an exceptional cut. But just slapping a name on it means nothing...esp as the HCA notes....5 is not a good stone.




Fitter...I do agree that most women don't CARE what type of cut it is...only that it's larger. Those women don't really hang out on this forum...hee hee..so it's hard to get the reality type version from all of us. Most of us are cut snobs!

Anyway, I think that something inbetween and 8* and a yellow ugly stone will be best for maximizing size and bang for your buck. People aren't impressed about labels unless it's a Tiffany, for whatever reason! Or a HW.

No one knows what an 8* is. If you want to buy the label, buy one that is well known at least...so you get your money's worth in terms of luxury name-dropping value.




But I honestly do not think that people don't know quality differences. People who have yellow, included stones...they know it..and so do other people. It doesn't mean you have to go to the other extreme and get super duper louper ideal but there IS a huge difference between a well-cut stone and a crappy stone when side by side. So if your budget allows, get something that dazzles in terms of well-cut (maybe almost H&A?), large and in charge!

and eye clean obviously. Because if it's eye clean, no one needs to know it's not VVS1!

Just like if its a G and it looks super white next to someone's K colored maul piece...then they don't know its not a D!




People out there have NO CONCEPT of what diamonds are really about. They just know what they can compare it to in terms of visual stimulations. Size speaks volumes, but so does overall quality. So maybe you aren't in the market for the greatest cut ever. But a nice ideal stone with a big size may do the trick?

 

[thefitter]

Mara- I feel that I have given you the wrong impression about my motivation. I’m not really into luxury name-dropping if I were I would just go for a Tiffany or Cartier. It’s my fault because I did a lousy job describing what I want. Probably because I guess I still do not know what I want. I’m really struggling trying to strike the correct balance in my mind between all the variables of this purchase, so that I am absolutely confident with my decision. Anal retentive, perfectionist and compulsive- all wonderful qualities but only if you are a nuclear physicist.

While I am not into name-dropping. I am into undeniable quality. I guess my wish is that that quality will be visually obvious to me, my wife and the average person. Which is kind of ironic because I don’t really respect the average persons opinion about most things anyway. (God I’m going to need therapy after this!)

I’m hoping tomorrow that I’ll be able to understand things better when I see the diamonds in my hands. Part of me hopes I’ll see the difference, part of me doesn’t. I’ll report back with my findings. Oh my god! What if I really like the big yellow monsters?

Ok, I’m going to spend the rest of the evening thinking about something other than diamonds.

Once again thanks for your time.

PS What’s a HW?

 

[Rank Amateur]

HW = Harry Winston.

All you can do is have some fun with it, let your eyes be the judge, make your best guess, and enjoy your choice. You've already done enough homework to guarantee that you'll arrive at a very pretty stone.

 

[someguy]

thefitter,

My advice to you is to stay away from the brand name diamonds. Unless you get a Tiffany ring, no one would actually recognise the brand so you're just wasting your money. If you do get a ring form Tiffany, I think that you're still wasting your money because in this case you'll be paying an extra 40% more, an won't even get a top notch cut diamond. As most people have mentioned, your best bet would be to buy an unbranded diamond from one of the online pricescope vendors. If you chose this path, you'll be getting the best of both worlds: bargain basement prices and top notch quality and service:

- In terms of price, I don't think that you'll find anyplace that can compete with the pricescope vendors. These vendors operate on way slimmer margins because and can afford to do so by selling a lot more diamonds. Had I even managed to find a 1ct stone comparable to the one I bought at GOG in a mall store, I would have paid at least $15 000 (cdn). Instead I paid around $7K...

- In terms of quality, you have nothing to lose and everyting to gain by choosing to buy online. And trust me, the quality WILL be noticeable. You have to keep in mind that 99% of people don't research diamonds to death the way pricescope people do! After seeing some of the duds out there, I'd much rather have a stunning 1ct diamond than a crappy 2ct one. When looking at most other diamonds, they all seem a little, I don't know how to put it, murky or dull or something like that, when compared to our little fireball! Since getting her ring, my fiancee keeps on getting comments on how sparkly her diamond is, and how huge it looks! People constantly ask why it sparkles so much! Also, if you purchase a well cut diamond, you can drop on other things like color. Our diamond is an I colored rock, and when looking for settings, we've had store clerks think that it was a D or an E...

One last comment. You said that your girl isn't very materialistic, yet you want her to wear her ring with pride so your worried about getting something too small. My girfriend was the same way, yet she always noticed the large rings of people around her and say: "Wow! Look at that one!" So I was even worried that 1ct wouldn't be large enough. Now that she has her ring she says it's perfect and cannot imagine wearing something bigger. She really, really appreciates the quality of the cut and has told me that she hasn't seen a nicer diamond yet, even though there are a lot of big one out there.


Anyway, sorry for the long post! The bottom line is that according to me you won't regretting buying a non branded H&A online. You'll save some money AND will be able to get something bigger and better than you would in a normal store. Best of all, the quality that you'll invest in WILL be noticeable when you compare your diamond to most of what's out there.

Good luck!

 

[Griffin]

The big question; what does your eye tell you?

Is the extra sparkle worth the extra money? Only you can determine that.
What are you comfortable with?

Buying a diamond is a purchase. Buying a diamond is NOT an investment anymore than buying a new car is, no matter what a retailer might try to tell you.
Would you buy a new car based exclusively on numbers? Of course not. You are buying it for your own use and enjoyment, so trust yourself - what do YOU need.

Use the numbers to verify you are getting a fair price on what you have decided you liked. Don't let them decide what you like for you.

 

[hoorray]

Only the obsessed (like us) know what an 8* is. However, I just upgraded from a good quality but averagely cut stone to an H&A ideal stone, and wow -- what a difference. I notice it all day long. My husband loves to show it off (whether he should or not), and people comment on it all the time. Size matters to get the general look, but then it is all about sparkle. I'd recommend trying to find that balance that is right for you. It sounds as if the brand for brand's sake doesn't matter to you or her, so let your eyes be your guide with some sideline coaching from the experts to keep you on the right path.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 2/2/2004 8:42:25 PM Mara wrote:


Anyway, I think that something inbetween and 8* and a yellow ugly stone will be best for maximizing size and bang for your buck. >People out there have NO CONCEPT of what diamonds are really about. They just know what they can compare it to in terms of visual stimulations. Size speaks volumes, but so does overall quality. So maybe you aren't in the market for the greatest cut ever. But a nice ideal stone with a big size may do the trick?

----------------

Yeah, what she said.

Bottom line is most women don't want some yellow monster. Most women want a pretty sizable stone. PERIOD. That can certainly be accomplished w/ a G/H VS/SI1 stone that has a very good cut.

Your co-workers story is exactly why I preach about knowing the women. Many don't care that is colorless, etc. They see size & a moniker of quality. Men need to understand that before they buy what they *perceive* is the best when the best may just mean bigger.

 

[mike04456]

There are many definitions of "quality" in the diamond market. In the end, your goal is making her happy--figure out what matters to her and get it.




On the question of size, though, remember that an ideal cut 1.0 ct stone may actually look bigger than a deep, poorly cut 1.5 ct because of the relative diameters.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 2/3/2004 12:55:06 PM LawGem wrote:


There are many definitions of 'quality' in the diamond market. In the end, your goal is making her happy--figure out what matters to her and get it.


quote]


Yes, very true. But it seems that men get so hung up on the specs (like the E man). Most women want a diamond that sparkles like mad, is "pretty" & pleasing to the eye (mostly appearing near colorless & free of junk). Not all women - but most.

While I certainly appreciated the sentiment of my then to be wanting a quality diamond - I don't think he really knew the reality of such except on paper. HIs perception was not a visual perception.

Edited to add: cut is important to issue of size - but not if one stays w/in certain parameters & doen't swing out to a stone in the 66% depth.