RG & CCL talk about nothing...

[Regular Guy]

This is intended as a remnant from the new research area.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...n-an-aset-image.150479/#post-2729009#p2729009

When first thinking of putting a "chip on your shoulder," I thought of Robert Conrad from the "Wild Wild West."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058855/

Note to CCL...(everybody else can ignore)...you might show your response to a friend, and get their feedback. By my reading, David wasn't seeking necessarily to be "taught" by anybody. I thought your response was presumptuous.

As I said, my point was not to comment on your content. It was intended as advice to you concerning your communication style. Yes, you for that matter weren't seeking my advice. But, like I said...HE initiated the post, not you. I thought that mattered for something.

Best regards,

Ira Z.

P.S. If a way can be seen to have this conversation be constructive, if it will be a conversation, that's my intent.

 

[Amethyste]

*runs to the kitchen and put in a bag of popcorn into the microwave*

While this is popping -

*get out my lounge chair and comfy fluffy house slipper*

 

[Tuckins1]

*runs to the kitchen and put in a bag of popcorn into the microwave*

While this is popping -

*get out my lounge chair and comfy fluffy house slipper*

Lol! I have seen a few threads where these folks were going at it... (seemingly arguing about nothing at all after a while...) It's like forum junk food!

 

[davi_el_mejor]

Robert Conrad is kind of a jerk. I went to school with his daughters. He would go to their parties, get drunk and try to fight high schoolers.

Just had to share my opinions on him since he was mentioned.

Now back to your regularly scheduled forum

 

[risingsun]

Thank you for starting this thread, Ira. I have been trying to get this point of view across for many months, now. This forum can handle differing points of view, but not the lack of civility. You have seen and commented on my level of frustration and you are correct. All of the name calling, condescension and pushing people around have gotten on my last nerve. It is completely within our own control to respond without being rude or on the attack. It's difficult to educate others when they are feeling put upon. My remarks extend to trade people, as well as consumers.

 

[Kaleigh]

Thank you for starting this thread, Ira. I have been trying to get this point of view across for many months, now. This forum can handle differing points of view, but not the lack of civility. You have seen and commented on my level of frustration and you are correct. All of the name calling, condescension and pushing people around have gotten on my last nerve. It is completely within our own control to respond without being rude or on the attack. It's difficult to educate others when they are feeling put upon. My remarks extend to trade people, as well as consumers.

Big Ditto and thanks Ira~~~~

 

[Madam Bijoux]

I evidently missed something again...
I would take that marquise in a heartbeat .

 

[Regular Guy]

I evidently missed something again...
I would take that marquise in a heartbeat .

Madam, in order to be clear, you might wish to clarify which of the two...but then we are morphing threads, and if you wish to be substantive, you belong in the other area altogether.

Best,

Ira Z.

 

[Amethyste]

I just realized WHY I am not into all of these ASETS and other techs reports available out there... I read all of these posts on RT and everyone bickers about technicalities (YAWN). Since high tech reports are so easily debatable, and one agrees with something while the other doesn't, MY EYES are the only ones I rely on to determine if a diamond is pleasing TO ME. I don't really care what reports say :

There are just too many variables involved that can make a "dud" on paper into a "stud" in a setting adorning one's finger....

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

This is intended as a remnant from the new research area.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...n-an-aset-image.150479/#post-2729009#p2729009

When first thinking of putting a "chip on your shoulder," I thought of Robert Conrad from the "Wild Wild West."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058855/

Note to CCL...(everybody else can ignore)...you might show your response to a friend, and get their feedback. By my reading, David wasn't seeking necessarily to be "taught" by anybody. I thought your response was presumptuous.

As I said, my point was not to comment on your content. It was intended as advice to you concerning your communication style. Yes, you for that matter weren't seeking my advice. But, like I said...HE initiated the post, not you. I thought that mattered for something.

Best regards,

Ira Z.

P.S. If a way can be seen to have this conversation be constructive, if it will be a conversation, that's my intent.

Ira,

I think you and other may be able to help me here. This thread and these forums are often about public opinion and not facts so perhaps a change in how I respond is necessary. Let me give you the context as I see it:

When I see someone posting:

"Is green in ASET bad?"

The question and entire post is loaded and indicates either one of two things:

1) They don't understand the tool and why that question can't be answered simply to make a subjective conclusion or applied in a general way to other shapes.
2) They aren't asking a question or leading a discussion, just preaching, and in a more honest and transparent manner should be phrased as this.

"I don't think green in ASET is bad here is why."

I hope its #1 and that is the basis for my response.
If it is #2 than those threads should be avoided and I wasted my time even in responding.

Garry's response was the following:

"Green and well dispersed tiny leakage zones are good because they indicate increased ray path lengths = more tiny virtual facets.
I spent quite a bit of frustrating time to show you that ASET can help you very quickly know if a stone will be a reject for crushed ice or even-ness of fancy color and optimization. In light of your topic here you might like to re-read some of my posts. You thought and interpreted my posts wrongly."

Now undearneath all of this in either 1) or 2) is the problem. The average trade or consumer may not have overcome the learning curve to properly interpret ASET images and will be fundamentally misled or at the very least when one opinion is set against the other may be confused enough to ignore both sides and the tool altogether. With a dozen knowledgeable trademembers about ASET correcting and taking the opposition with RD its pretty easy for the less experienced to see which side is better supported. With just myself and one other trademember how would someone not already very familiar with the material understand who to beleive? I don't have a trade badge and don't earn my living in this trade.

Contrary to the average consumer, I have spent months learning and discussing with AGSL members the nuances of ASET and their cut grading system. They have been extremely open and generous with their time to assist in my education. I've discussed with numerous vendors, hundreds of examples of all different ranges and outlines of fancy shapes, done several hundred simulations in Diamcalc and debated at length with critics of the ASET about its proper interpretation and limitations. I have read as much of the archives and original discussions as I could on Pricescope and have prepared my own material on the proper interpretation and limitations of ASET technology. I may start a thread in RT in the near future to explore the topic.

So I pose the following questions perhaps I can learn from you and others about the court of public opinion:

1) Should a thread like that phrased in such a way be considereed civil and be started in that manner?
2) In your opinion and others how should someone in my position or Garry's "civilly" respond given the context?

From the viewpoint of an impartial outsider it seems like the content and fine details are lost, those who aren't familiar with the content and don't care to be only see the disagreement and don't understand the merits of either position.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

This is the marquise that I would take in a heartbeat:
https://www.pricescope.com/files/images/mqasettray.jpg
I'm not a professional or an expert. I just love the proportions and overall appearance of it.

 

[Regular Guy]

CCL,

I'm short for time, but would like to respond briefly, quickly, so will say this...

1) Should a thread like that phrased in such a way be considered civil and be started in that manner?
2) In your opinion and others how should someone in my position or Garry's "civilly" respond given the context?

RD asked: "Is green bad in an aset?

There is nothing irresponsible, on its face, nor substantially, with such a question.

Nor, do you have any relationship with RD, such that you must correct him. If you simply feel compelled to...that is your thing.

You write:

"Never compare pavilion lit shots to an ASET image they will not correlate properly. No tweezers shots."

Really, what business do you have telling RD what to do or not to do.

You wrote:

"I hope you will paraphrase all four points properly and indicate your understanding in a reply before we move on so that I know you are reading and interpreting properly what I am trying to teach you."

Ummm.......CCL...this is HIS thread. On what basis do you presume to ask him to paraphrase anything, so as to check his understanding. It's not like he paid to be part of your webinar or something. In fact, as I just said, it is his thread. React as you like, but my own knee jerk reaction is that you are in his face, and...despite the fact that this is all on the web...you have not shown an appreciation for "social space."

Ira Z.

 

[Rockdiamond]

This is intended as a remnant from the new research area.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...n-an-aset-image.150479/#post-2729009#p2729009

When first thinking of putting a "chip on your shoulder," I thought of Robert Conrad from the "Wild Wild West."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058855/

Note to CCL...(everybody else can ignore)...you might show your response to a friend, and get their feedback. By my reading, David wasn't seeking necessarily to be "taught" by anybody. I thought your response was presumptuous.

As I said, my point was not to comment on your content. It was intended as advice to you concerning your communication style. Yes, you for that matter weren't seeking my advice. But, like I said...HE initiated the post, not you. I thought that mattered for something.

Best regards,

Ira Z.

P.S. If a way can be seen to have this conversation be constructive, if it will be a conversation, that's my intent.

Thank you ( again) Ira. (eta- and again!)


CCL- reading your post, I can get your point. Discussions that are worded in a provocative manner will generate provocative responses.
To avoid that, please put my question in context.
When I asked "Is green bad in an aset" I also mentioned that I had heard that statement made on occasions here on PS.
The same for "crushed ice"

I'd again ask you to remember that practical experience with diamonds, is invaluable in the actual running of a business- which includes selection and marketing of diamonds. That part of my job is closely related to consumers who don;t need to market a stone- but they do need to select one.
I have not been a fan of aset- part of that having to do with my lack of understanding- part to do with lack of need to use it- but probably more than anything is the assumptions seen here on PS - and frequently.
One of the aspects here on PS that is , for me, frustrating is the mixing of facts, and subjective aspects.

In the "trade participation" thread, John Pollard wrote an excellent post on the difficulty we all face if we feel the need to correct another person.
Based on the response of some very vocal members, I have not done well in exercising my right to add content- which may include contradicting things written by others.

I invite you , ccl, to turn the page, and look at ways of discussing differences in opinion, in such a way that both opinions are respected.
That is certainly one of my goals.

 

[risingsun]

From the viewpoint of an impartial outsider it seems like the content and fine details are lost, those who aren't familiar with the content and don't care to be only see the disagreement and don't understand the merits of either position.

To CCL: I read the technical threads in order to be educated. Please remember that your audience is likely not highly educated in optics and will need material that is presented in a clear, concise manner. When the thread is peppered with insults, it becomes the equivalent of a hostile work environment. The ability to learn is sacrificed to the bickering. If a poster makes a comment that you find specious, either ignore it or remain civil when answering it. If the other party continues on, report them. Many loyal and long term PS members have left this forum because they have had it with all the picking at each other. If you would like a highly technical place to post, then ask for a thread in which to do so. If you [general] can't keep it civil, it will deteriorate to the place we are in right now. As a consumer posting on RT, I have found myself in the hot seat one time too many. I was trying to answer some questions from a place of my own knowledge. I found myself, instead, having to defend myself and my choices. We're beginning to sound like The Stepford Wives over here

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

CCL- reading your post, I can get your point. Discussions that are worded in a provocative manner will generate provocative responses.
To avoid that, please put my question in context.

Putting the statements of others in proper context(with post links) and presenting the full picture is important.

When I asked "Is green bad in an aset" I also mentioned that I had heard that statement made on occasions here on PS.
The same for "crushed ice"

If you don't want answers to your questions and are simply giving your opinion than you will be less inflammatory if you make a statement rather than asking a loaded question.

This question has been answered before several times before. Why it is good or bad and in what lighting. Are you really trying to learn this or just preaching to the less informed the case when you think it is good?
Can you see how insulting it is to me and to others to have to repeat ourselves when you don't review or paraphrase in proper context past thread and repeat the same question?

I'd again ask you to remember that practical experience with diamonds, is invaluable in the actual running of a business- which includes selection and marketing of diamonds. That part of my job is closely related to consumers who don;t need to market a stone- but they do need to select one.

Are you still not understanding why showing a consumer a tweezer shot next to an ASET is not a proper comparison they can use for selection? It is the most obvious thing about your entire post and thread.

If you are looking at diamonds pavilion lit with grading lamps and then using that as a brightness standard to compare to what you see through an ASET you are doing an misleading comparison. If you have been evaluating diamonds that way for 20 years I can see why the change in viewing conditions will be difficult to accept. (See GIA cut grading foundations article G&G Fall 2004)

Your expertise and focus is on colored diamonds, where brightness (which is the primary property ASET is measuring) is maybe the third or fourth most important cutting consideration. Yet you are constantly applying this general overall beauty focus to colorless diamonds and arguing with prevailing opinion which seperates and highlights the importance of brightness considerations.



I have not been a fan of aset- part of that having to do with my lack of understanding- part to do with lack of need to use it- but probably more than anything is the assumptions seen here on PS - and frequently.


In that thread and the countless others you haven't cited specifically which ones are the poor ones or posted a link or proven why its a poor assumption.

But really we haven't gotten past the definition of brightness and proper interpretation phase and that is the main thrust of my response to you in the other thread.

One of the aspects here on PS that is , for me, frustrating is the mixing of facts, and subjective aspects.

The ASET tool and how it works are scientifically vetted facts. John Pollard, Garry H, Diagem, Karl K and others have already tried to communicate this to you.

The interpretation of the images is not fact(some parts of it are) but you rarely mention how you seperate the two which is very frustrating. I see a reluctance on your part to accept any definitions or anything as being a fact, that makes reaching common ground impossible.

Based on the response of some very vocal members, I have not done well in exercising my right to add content- which may include contradicting things written by others.

You have never written an article, that is a method where you are allowed to give your unchallenged opinion. The lack of support for your opinions (ie lack of forum posted links, references, related photographs, paraphrasing others comments etc) are my problem not your opinion itself.

I invite you , ccl, to turn the page, and look at ways of discussing differences in opinion, in such a way that both opinions are respected.
That is certainly one of my goals.

I am more than happy to extend you the olive branch, in order to do so I ask that you properly acknowledge the past efforts of trademembers and consumers in your future posts especially when you are challenging the prevailing opinions here for sport or to spark a debate.

If you can paraphrase with proper context or link to the posts of others ( see the white page next to the nickname it gives you a hyperlink to that specific post) than your arguments will be much more structured and less provocative.



I hope you really will do some careful reading of the archives and the next post you write about ASET will give proper consideration for the ground that has already been covered.

 

[Kaleigh]

CCL,
HI. Obviously you have a lot of technical knowledge, we get that... And that's to be admired...

BUT you lose so much in your delivery.... I can't tell you how to change your personality. BUT so many see your posts and are leaving because you just don't get how to educate and be thoughtful in the delivery...

You are so combative... It comes across as very negative and to newbies I can't imagine what they must think....

SO think about how you respond going forward...

Your message will be taken in the way it's written, if it's written in a comabative way.... The message is lost and falls on deaf ears...

OK that's it from me, and for the record?? I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but know a thing or two.

And no one would ever say I was disrespectful.

Hoping the message gets through....

Peace.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

We are all here because we love diamonds and other gemstones. What's to argue about or be condescending about? As a consumer, if I look at a stone and it's love at first sight, I couldn't care less what the GIA report or any other tool says.

 

[AGBF]

Did this thread, which appears actually to discuss diamonds and to involve some people who regularly discuss diamonds, land in Hangout due to the rule change Andrey announced? I am not sure how the rule change could have effected that, but it is so unexpected to see ASET and green areas mentioned here that I suspected a revolution or a coup d'état or some other change of gargantuan proportions might be underway.

Can anyone tell me why we are discussing diamonds here? By the way, I love Ira and CCL. Ira has been my good friend for many, many years and I think that CCL has put together one of the most helpful guides to cushion cuts imaginable. I am delighted to see them both here!

Deb/AGBF

 

[PinkTower]

This is the marquise that I would take in a heartbeat:
https://www.pricescope.com/files/images/mqasettray.jpg
I'm not a professional or an expert. I just love the proportions and overall appearance of it.

You are right!!! Love it, too.

 

[risingsun]

Did this thread, which appears actually to discuss diamonds and to involve some people who regularly discuss diamonds, land in Hangout due to the rule change Andrey announced? I am not sure how the rule change could have effected that, but it is so unexpected to see ASET and green areas mentioned here that I suspected a revolution or a coup d'état or some other change of gargantuan proportions might be underway.

Can anyone tell me why we are discussing diamonds here? By the way, I love Ira and CCL. Ira has been my good friend for many, many years and I think that CCL has put together one of the most helpful guides to cushion cuts imaginable. I am delighted to see them both here!

Deb/AGBF

Deb~what rule change did Andrey make? I must have missed that

 

[risingsun]

Deb~I found the thread with the new rules

 

[Regular Guy]

Did this thread, which appears actually to discuss diamonds and to involve some people who regularly discuss diamonds, land in Hangout due to the rule change Andrey announced? I am not sure how the rule change could have effected that, but it is so unexpected to see ASET and green areas mentioned here that I suspected a revolution or a coup d'état or some other change of gargantuan proportions might be underway.

Can anyone tell me why we are discussing diamonds here? By the way, I love Ira and CCL. Ira has been my good friend for many, many years and I think that CCL has put together one of the most helpful guides to cushion cuts imaginable. I am delighted to see them both here!

Deb/AGBF

Deb, what you're seeing is just a backwards effect. Frankly, I'm not exactly sure why CCL chose to bring the extent of his ASET discussion over here to hangout that he did, but he may have simply wanted to provide readers here some context for his response.

Discussion is here, so as to avoid there to be non-on-point discussion of diamond research there:

https://www.pricescope.com/forum/diamond-research-f91/

where that is the intent of the discussion, there. Where I had initiated the topic of clarifying communication, vs diamond studies, I thought to move that discussion over here, to hangout. With the move, seems to have come left over talk of diamond research. But, it looks as though that will go away.

Hope that helps.

Love you too Deb,

Best,

Ira Z.

 

[iota15]

CCL, you asked above for assistance from the court of popular opinion - while I am not a court, I will try to provide some assistance.

Perhaps you are not seeing what we see in your communication style. To me, it appears you have spent a lot of time learning about diamonds. Your skills have lent well to what can be a highly technical field. This is good. You have a lot to contribute.

However, how you are perceived through only the written word leaves much to be desired, and I don't think this is how you want to be seen. Through what I see as hostility and condescension, I must admit that I have at times wondered whether you pursued this "hobby" because you have finally found a large population of people over which to dominate. For the most part, PS'ers/newbies are generally not technically-oriented, nor have the time or desire to invest in in-depth learning. But it appears to me, and I could be completely wrong - that rather than trying to teach us, or simply "correct" misstatements/false information, it feels like the main purpose of your posts is to lord the information you've gained over our heads.

From your written words only, it seems like you derive quite a bit of pleasure from your "technical superiority". This feeling is very palpable in your posts. Any pretense of "teaching us" or "correcting misstatements" seems very hollow from your writing, as these endeavours can be conducted in a civil manner, and it currently does not come across that way. Almost every post I've read from you screams across the screen as - "I know more than you, so listen to me, dam*nit" (with a wry grin, or an intense furrow brow for those who fail to submit to your superiority). This must not be your intent.

I have to admit I've wondered while reading your posts - what must be in your outside-PS life to compel you to "act out" like this? I agree with the others that your writing tone is agressive, condescending and even petty-sounding. I think you want to communicate what you've invested into learning in a constructive way. Instead, I find what appears to be a person - high on power and knowledge - chasing away many potentially useful opinions, approaches, thoughts and dissenters.

I think all PS'ers are hoping you will adopt a better approach for sharing your knowledge (as opposed to lecturing). For now, I hope you can take a step back once in a while from what you write on this forum. See if the post is constructive or inflammatory on its own. For the most part, it's a futile and frustrating exercise to try to control what other posters post... but you can control what you do, and we sincerely hope that you exercise that control to foster a better learning environment for all PS'ers. I know you have a lot to share, but understand that it's not coming across very effectively and your points are being lost by those who want to learn.

 

[Cehrabehra]

I for one rarely go over to RT anymore and avoid cushion threads because of ONE poster. Rude, insulting, arrogant - and totally benefiting from recent research while slapping those in the face who either disagree with certain aspects of it or have differing opinions. There is no, "oh maybe you were gone when they discovered xyz - it's fantastic, you're gonna love this - check it out!" It's just a bunch of wow you're an idiot and behind the times I'm sorry I ever thought you might have something valuable to say.