Retinoids: Do we love or hate them?

[Autumn in New England]

Hello all,

I started a prescription retinoid about 8 months ago. I'm trying to get a start on a̶n̶t̶i̶ graceful aging. I began very slowly... applied it once per week for several weeks. Then 2 nights per week, then 3 nights, then every other night, then 2 nights on : one off, three on : one off, etc. until I was up to every night. My skin, prior to this regimen, had always been very resilient. Now it's super sensitive, so I have a very basic, gentle routine otherwise. I have come through the worst of the side effects (redness, dehydration, peeling like a reptile, general discomfort). I still experience a bit of tightness in the drier weather and the occasional light flaking here and there. But this is my first winter using the product, and now I have this constant little patch of red, irritated skin on my left laugh line. Just one side! lol I'm pretty sure I laugh with both sides of my face, but I digress. I cannot get rid of this ^%$#*@! problem area.

I've used vaseline, shea butter, squalane, HA, argan oil, etc. alongside my regular heavy duty moisturizer. I have removed all other actives from my repertoire. Nothing improves it. Could this be eczema brought on by the retinoid? I've never had it before. My derm can't see me until next month. Is it time to get some hydrocortisone cream? Has anyone else had a difficult time acclimating to tretinoin (I'm actually on the 4th and newest generation, trifarotene). Everyone online makes it seem like after 4 weeks, it's smooth sailing. But my skin has never really fully adjusted. I don't want to take a break though, because I'd have to start over... it was a long process! My derm keeps telling me the results will be worth it as I age. All I know is, my skin was just fine before I starting using this dastardly little cream.

TIA,
Autumn

 

[maryjane04]

I don't know much about retinoids - can't use it as I am pregnant anyway. But I have been very interested in skincare this year - especially Korean skincare which really focuses on hydration and improving the skin barrier first before anything else.

There are lots of products that are complementary and some that you should avoid while using retinoids. I can't find the exact link but here is one that I found:

https://www.theinkeylist.com/blogs/...cific, you cannot,Night Treatment), PHA Toner.

Since retinol is such a powerful ingredient, it's important to be cautious about what you are pairing this with in your daily routine. To be specific, you cannot mix retinol with AHAs (Glycolic Acid Toner, Alpha Hydroxy Acid, Lactic Acid, Mandelic Acid Treatment, Apple Cider Vinegar Acid Peel), BHAs (Beta Hydroxy Acid Serum, C-50 Blemish Night Treatment), PHA Toner.

What all of those ingredients listed have in common is that they are all exfoliating, which means they are likely to cause more irritation and dryness when paired with Retinols. If you are using either of these alongside retinol, we highly suggest using them on alternate evenings and starting off slowly.

Oh wait.. I found a photo..

 

[Dreamer_D]

I can’t use any of these acids on my skin. I have tried but my skin is just too sensitive. I get irritation like you describe.

I am not very concerned about wrinkles though. My issue is dryness. I have switched to a moisturizing face care routine. I am washing with cerave moisturizing wash, then using cerave moisturizer, then I use some Korean snail mucus moisturizer. It’s working pretty well!

I believe the cerave has hyleronic acid. That is ok for my skin so far. But I can’t tolerate any of the retinols.

 

[ShinyPink]

I use a compounded formula from my dermatologist - retinol, hyaluronic acid, and something else that I can't remember. I use it three months on, three off. My skin looks good, and it gets rid of clogged pores and little bumps, too. When my skin is dry from it, I put it on a couple hours for before bed and then use moisturizer at bedtime.

 

[monarch64]

I have no idea what they are. Following this thread I guess to learn

 

[Mary Queen of Scotch]

Are you going in with the retanoid immediately after cleansing? You really need your skin to be bone-freaking-dry when you apply it — any dampness and it will absorb more deeply, causing irritation.**

My first several months (months!) on Retin-A, I had a whole BEARD of skin flakes. Maddening. Grotesque. Only thing that turned it around was waiting 45-60 min post-cleanse to apply the tret, and then waiting another 30+ min before applying moisturizer. Total and immediate 180 from crusty piece of toast to bodacious slip ‘n slide.

**IANADBIPOOTV (I am not a derm, but I play one on TV)

 

[tyty333]

I've been using tretinoin for quite a while now. I cant even remember what it was like starting it. I dont remember having any
big issues. I think, for me, it has held the small wrinkles at bay. Unfortunately, I dont think they can do much for the big
sagging wrinkles due to gravity??? I guess what I'm saying is that I dont have little wrinkles but do have the bigger marionette
lines, nasolabial folds, and start of jowls. Not sure anything can fix those except a lower facelift. If you guys know of anything that can
help the bigger sagging wrinkles...let me know!

 

[PastryGirl]

I can’t use any of these acids on my skin. I have tried but my skin is just too sensitive. I get irritation like you describe.

I am not very concerned about wrinkles though. My issue is dryness. I have switched to a moisturizing face care routine. I am washing with cerave moisturizing wash, then using cerave moisturizer, then I use some Korean snail mucus moisturizer. It’s working pretty well!

I believe the cerave has hyleronic acid. That is ok for my skin so far. But I can’t tolerate any of the retinols.

I was going to suggest the snail mucin too. I like Cetaphil cream better than CeraVe but I do wash with CeraVe. I use Fresh rose cream, actually I use a lot of products from that line. They are all very moisturizing. The toner is great.

Layer the tret with a light moisturizer (snail mucin) underneath before you put it on. It will help a bit. My skin was on fire for two months. Everything made it burn and sometimes it still burns depending on the day. I’ve been using it since September. But it will subside eventually. Don’t forget sunscreen!! I forget too often.

My skin looks great. I had pretty good skin to begin with and usually get confused as a student at the college I teach at, but I can definitely see a difference in the crows feet that were forming.

 

[PastryGirl]

I've been using tretinoin for quite a while now. I cant even remember what it was like starting it. I dont remember having any
big issues. I think, for me, it has held the small wrinkles at bay. Unfortunately, I dont think they can do much for the big
sagging wrinkles due to gravity??? I guess what I'm saying is that I dont have little wrinkles but do have the bigger marionette
lines, nasolabial folds, and start of jowls. Not sure anything can fix those except a lower facelift. If you guys know of anything that can
help the bigger sagging wrinkles...let me know!

Botox can’t help?

 

[Autumn in New England]

I don't know much about retinoids - can't use it as I am pregnant anyway. But I have been very interested in skincare this year - especially Korean skincare which really focuses on hydration and improving the skin barrier first before anything else.

There are lots of products that are complementary and some that you should avoid while using retinoids. I can't find the exact link but here is one that I found:

https://www.theinkeylist.com/blogs/news/what-not-to-mix-with-retinol#:~:text=To be specific, you cannot,Night Treatment), PHA Toner.

Since retinol is such a powerful ingredient, it's important to be cautious about what you are pairing this with in your daily routine. To be specific, you cannot mix retinol with AHAs (Glycolic Acid Toner, Alpha Hydroxy Acid, Lactic Acid, Mandelic Acid Treatment, Apple Cider Vinegar Acid Peel), BHAs (Beta Hydroxy Acid Serum, C-50 Blemish Night Treatment), PHA Toner.

What all of those ingredients listed have in common is that they are all exfoliating, which means they are likely to cause more irritation and dryness when paired with Retinols. If you are using either of these alongside retinol, we highly suggest using them on alternate evenings and starting off slowly.

Oh wait.. I found a photo..

Great advice and valuable resources, thank you!

 

[Autumn in New England]

I can’t use any of these acids on my skin. I have tried but my skin is just too sensitive. I get irritation like you describe.

I am not very concerned about wrinkles though. My issue is dryness. I have switched to a moisturizing face care routine. I am washing with cerave moisturizing wash, then using cerave moisturizer, then I use some Korean snail mucus moisturizer. It’s working pretty well!

I believe the cerave has hyleronic acid. That is ok for my skin so far. But I can’t tolerate any of the retinols.

I asked my derm... how about just peptides and vitamin C (which also irritates me). She was like, nope, don't bother. Retinol, retinol, retinol. I cringed, because I know how much my skin hates it. As @maryjane04 said, the reason Korean skincare is all the rage is because it focuses solely on hydration and skin health. That sounds right to me.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I use a compounded formula from my dermatologist - retinol, hyaluronic acid, and something else that I can't remember. I use it three months on, three off. My skin looks good, and it gets rid of clogged pores and little bumps, too. When my skin is dry from it, I put it on a couple hours for before bed and then use moisturizer at bedtime.

Oh yeah, you definitely need those humectants and emollients right in the mix (and not just from an added moisturizer). Sounds like a good formula. Mine has allantoin as the first ingredient (after the retinoid). But... like most script formulations, it also has ethanol, and my skin just hates these drying alcohols.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I have no idea what they are. Following this thread I guess to learn

I've seen your photos... you're beautiful as-is. Run far away!

 

[Autumn in New England]

Are you going in with the retanoid immediately after cleansing? You really need your skin to be bone-freaking-dry when you apply it — any dampness and it will absorb more deeply, causing irritation.**

My first several months (months!) on Retin-A, I had a whole BEARD of skin flakes. Maddening. Grotesque. Only thing that turned it around was waiting 45-60 min post-cleanse to apply the tret, and then waiting another 30+ min before applying moisturizer. Total and immediate 180 from crusty piece of toast to bodacious slip ‘n slide.

**IANADBIPOOTV (I am not a derm, but I play one on TV)

You know... I think this might be the issue. Yes, I am guilty of going straight in with the retinoid. I just can't stand to let my skin dehydrate while I wait. I convinced myself it wasn't making a big difference. Do you know who Dr. Dray is (youtube)? She says, as an alternative, put your moisturizer (not occlusive) on when your skin is damp to hold in all that moisture. Then let dry, then go in with your retinoid. I'd heard of the "sandwich" method, but I never thought about just switching up the order (I don't think you necessarily need the top "coat.") I was always afraid it wouldn't be effective. But apparently this %^&* is so potent (and lipid soluble), it can penetrate just about anything (except petrolatum, I believe). What are your thoughts on this? Your skin sounds like major goals.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I've been using tretinoin for quite a while now. I cant even remember what it was like starting it. I dont remember having any
big issues. I think, for me, it has held the small wrinkles at bay. Unfortunately, I dont think they can do much for the big
sagging wrinkles due to gravity??? I guess what I'm saying is that I dont have little wrinkles but do have the bigger marionette
lines, nasolabial folds, and start of jowls. Not sure anything can fix those except a lower facelift. If you guys know of anything that can
help the bigger sagging wrinkles...let me know!

So you're one of the lucky ones who tolerates this stuff well! I, sadly, am not. To answer your question about more prominent wrinkles, I've read that the fraxel dual laser is quite effective and non-invasive (though pricey). It's an overall skin rejuvenation system. I've seen dramatic results on people who've undergone multiple sessions. A lot of folks also swear by morpheus8 (especially for the neck), which is a sort of professional needling procedure.

 

[seaurchin]

Well, I think retinoids actually work by removing some outer layers of the skin, which is definitely irritating, while at the same time, puffing up the collagen under the skin a little bit too, which is really a thin, even layer of scarring on it... which is caused by irritating it.

If you can't tolerate it well but still want that improvement, you might have to go with lasering to get it but that's a more "drastic" treatment.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I was going to suggest the snail mucin too. I like Cetaphil cream better than CeraVe but I do wash with CeraVe. I use Fresh rose cream, actually I use a lot of products from that line. They are all very moisturizing. The toner is great.

Layer the tret with a light moisturizer (snail mucin) underneath before you put it on. It will help a bit. My skin was on fire for two months. Everything made it burn and sometimes it still burns depending on the day. I’ve been using it since September. But it will subside eventually. Don’t forget sunscreen!! I forget too often.

My skin looks great. I had pretty good skin to begin with and usually get confused as a student at the college I teach at, but I can definitely see a difference in the crows feet that were forming.

All great advice, thank you! Do you use physical or chemical sunscreen? This is another issue for me. Oh how I despise sunscreen. But I wear it religiously, of course. I always used chemical, because I love cosmetics, and it wears well under it. But now the FDA is calling for more studies about the chemicals often used - octinoxate, homosalate, octisalate, octocrylene, and avobenzone (we already know to avoid oxybenzone, because it's a hormone disruptor that causes breast cancer and endometriosis). They've found that they all absorb into the bloodstream after one application. They just don't know if they're actually dangerous. They're also supposedly bad for the environment. I eventually moved to a hybrid and now I've switched to 100% mineral. Fun! Zinc is heavy and drying (apparently it's an astringent) as all get out.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Well, I think retinoids actually work by removing some outer layers of the skin, which is definitely irritating, while at the same time, puffing up the collagen under the skin a little bit too, which is really a thin, even layer of scarring of it... which is caused by irritating it.

If you can't tolerate it well but still want that improvement, you might have to go with lasering to get it but that's a more "drastic" treatment.

I've looked into lasering as a future treatment for when I begin to necrotize in earnest.

Do you think it should (or can) also be used as a preventative measure? I don't yet have fine lines.

 

[AprilBaby]

I have been using prescription retin-a since I was 16 years old. A year ago I upped my dose to the highest level and I have fabulous skin, it looks much younger than its age and I barely have any wrinkles. I will be 65 in April. I just have to make sure I wear sunscreen in the summer. A year ago I upped my dose to the highest level and I have fabulous skin, it looks much younger than its age and I barely have any wrinkles. I will be 65 in April. I just have to make sure I wear sunscreen in the summer. Pretty much I don’t use the retinol over the summer and started again in the fall. I use biossance Squaline and Omega repair cream on top of it at bedtime. In the morning I use biossance squaline and vit c rose oil and then Olay. Other than the bags under my eyes, I have no wrinkles.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I asked my derm... how about just peptides and vitamin C (which also irritates me). She was like, nope, don't bother. Retinol, retinol, retinol. I cringed, because I know how much my skin hates it. As @maryjane04 said, the reason Korean skincare is all the rage is because it focuses solely on hydration and skin health. That sounds right to me.

Feels weird to suffer bad skin now in the hopes of slightly fewer wrinkles in like a decade lol

 

[Matata]

If you guys know of anything that can help the bigger sagging wrinkles...let me know!

Fillers & botox. I've heard great things about Teoxane and will be giving it a try at the end of April when I'm finished with my rosacea treatment.

 

[AprilBaby]

Fillers & botox. I've heard great things about Teoxane and will be giving it a try at the end of April when I'm finished with my rosacea treatment.

I know you should not use retinoids with rosacea. I will be interested in hearing about the Teo and and if it helps bags under the eyes. BTW, I love your avatar, makes me laugh every time.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I have been using prescription retin-a since I was 16 years old. A year ago I upped my dose to the highest level and I have fabulous skin, it looks much younger than its age and I barely have any wrinkles. I will be 65 in April. I just have to make sure I wear sunscreen in the summer. A year ago I upped my dose to the highest level and I have fabulous skin, it looks much younger than its age and I barely have any wrinkles. I will be 65 in April. I just have to make sure I wear sunscreen in the summer. Pretty much I don’t use the retinol over the summer and started again in the fall. I use biossance Squaline and Omega repair cream on top of it at bedtime. In the morning I use biossance squaline and vit c rose oil and then Olay. Other than the bags under my eyes, I have no wrinkles.

You should have been a case study! lol I don't know anyone who can speak to its effects over a span of 50 years. That is incredible, wow. It makes sense too, because apparently tret is much better at preventing wrinkles than getting rid of them. Now I wish I'd started even sooner!!

 

[Autumn in New England]

Feels weird to suffer bad skin now in the hopes of slightly fewer wrinkles in like a decade lol

 

[Autumn in New England]

Fillers & botox. I've heard great things about Teoxane and will be giving it a try at the end of April when I'm finished with my rosacea treatment.

I've seen folks who've been conservative with botox and they look fab. I'm less convinced about fillers, because they seem to unnaturally distort the contours of the face. But I think, like anything else, it's all about moderation. I remember when I first had a few highlights added to my hair (just at the crown). My hairdresser said, "watch, you'll be completely blonde in 6 months." She was right! I didn't even notice we kept doing more and more. (I'm back to brunette, btw). That's what I worry about with botox and fillers. Madonna literally looks like she's wearing a giant, inflated mask of a face she sort of kind of used to have. It's like we're not looking younger, just weirder.

 

[Matata]

I've seen folks who've been conservative with botox and they look fab. I'm less convinced about fillers, because they seem to unnaturally distort the contours of the face. But I think, like anything else, it's all about moderation.

I'm with you about the distortion of some people who overdo and it makes me angry that some doctors won't say no when their patients get to the point where they start to look freakish.

What I've learned about the Teoxane is that it is soft, comes in different consistencies to address different areas of the face and completely absorbs while (allegedly) building collagen. I said allegedly because stuff I've done in the past was supposed to build collagen but didn't or it was so subtle as to be unnoticeable. It doesn't have a bumpy texture or tend to drift like some of the other fillers. I'm going to be very conservative with the first try. I'm want a rested look rather than trying to younger.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I don't know that any of the procedures we are talking about here make people look "younger" per se. They typically make people look like rich older people Its a very specific look, as people have been saying.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I'm with you about the distortion of some people who overdo and it makes me angry that some doctors won't say no when their patients get to the point where they start to look freakish.

What I've learned about the Teoxane is that it is soft, comes in different consistencies to address different areas of the face and completely absorbs while (allegedly) building collagen. I said allegedly because stuff I've done in the past was supposed to build collagen but didn't or it was so subtle as to be unnoticeable. It doesn't have a bumpy texture or tend to drift like some of the other fillers. I'm going to be very conservative with the first try. I'm want a rested look rather than trying to younger.

I'm really interested to hear about your experience now! I like that it's not simply a temporary fix, but also intended to treat the issue. Please check back in!!

Yes, it just goes to show that even hippocratic-oath-taking doctors aren't immune to the trappings of success (especially when famous patients are involved).

 

[Autumn in New England]

I don't know that any of the procedures we are talking about here make people look "younger" per se. They typically make people look like rich older people Its a very specific look, as people have been saying.

Your comment reminded me of this clip (watch until the 1:24 minute mark). lol

 

[PastryGirl]

I've seen folks who've been conservative with botox and they look fab. I'm less convinced about fillers, because they seem to unnaturally distort the contours of the face. But I think, like anything else, it's all about moderation. I remember when I first had a few highlights added to my hair (just at the crown). My hairdresser said, "watch, you'll be completely blonde in 6 months." She was right! I didn't even notice we kept doing more and more. (I'm back to brunette, btw). That's what I worry about with botox and fillers. Madonna literally looks like she's wearing a giant, inflated mask of a face she sort of kind of used to have. It's like we're not looking younger, just weirder.

I am VERY conservative with botox. Like below minimal dose. I started getting it for migraines, and it eventually wasn't as effective as I'd hoped. Plus a neurologist injecting it makes your face look weird.

I rotate sunscreens but really don't even use them once a week and I need to. I was using some Lancome one for awhile, then sometimes I'll use Babyganics, or regular summer brands.