Response to Rockhugger - Reborn dolls

[Kaleigh]

Seeing the pic of your lovely 8 year old brought a big smile. I am so very sorry for the loss of your son and for all the pain you have been through. I don't know these dolls, so won't comment...

 

[AGBF]

Seeing the pic of your lovely 8 year old brought a big smile. I am so very sorry for the loss of your son and for all the pain you have been through. I don't know these dolls, so won't comment...

Since reading this thread I looked up the dolls and saw I was familiar with them. I had just never seen any premature baby dolls!!! It never would have occurred to me to make one! In my opinion, the other dolls are just dolls...art work. Whether one would want one and, if so, what type of doll, would depend on one's taste. When my daughter was young I had her "double" made in doll form. It was nothing like these dolls, nothing made to look realistic, but one chose an outfit from a selection of outfits; the child got the same one in her size that the doll wore; then the doll was made up with the child's hair and eye color. It may have been called, "My Twin". Designing your own baby doll might not be so different. You could make the baby doll you always dreamed of as a little girl, I guess.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Kaleigh]

Seeing the pic of your lovely 8 year old brought a big smile. I am so very sorry for the loss of your son and for all the pain you have been through. I don't know these dolls, so won't comment...

Since reading this thread I looked up the dolls and saw I was familiar with them. I had just never seen any premature baby dolls!!! It never would have occurred to me to make one! In my opinion, the other dolls are just dolls...art work. Whether one would want one and, if so, what type of doll, would depend on one's taste. When my daughter was young I had her "double" made in doll form. It was nothing like these dolls, nothing made to look realistic, but one chose an outfit from a selection of outfits; the child got the same one in her size that the doll wore; then the doll was made up with the child's hair and eye color. It may have been called, "My Twin". Designing your own baby doll might not be so different. You could make the baby doll you always dreamed of as a little girl, I guess.

Deb/AGBF

Deb,
You missed the point. You aren't familar with these dolls...The ones made to look like preemies. Having a double made of your daughter is so far from the point the dear poster was talking about.

xo

Lisa

 

[AGBF]

Seeing the pic of your lovely 8 year old brought a big smile. I am so very sorry for the loss of your son and for all the pain you have been through. I don't know these dolls, so won't comment...

Since reading this thread I looked up the dolls and saw I was familiar with them. I had just never seen any premature baby dolls!!! It never would have occurred to me to make one! In my opinion, the other dolls are just dolls...art work. Whether one would want one and, if so, what type of doll, would depend on one's taste. When my daughter was young I had her "double" made in doll form. It was nothing like these dolls, nothing made to look realistic, but one chose an outfit from a selection of outfits; the child got the same one in her size that the doll wore; then the doll was made up with the child's hair and eye color. It may have been called, "My Twin". Designing your own baby doll might not be so different. You could make the baby doll you always dreamed of as a little girl, I guess.

Deb/AGBF

Deb,
You missed the point. You aren't familar with these dolls...The ones made to look like preemies. Having a double made of your daughter is so far from the point the dear poster was talking about.

xo

Lisa

Hi, Lisa. Thanks for pointing out that something was awry in my posting. It wasn't what you think, however. I didn't really miss the point. My daughter was calling me incessantly as I tried to post and distracting me to the point of madness. What I wrote was garbled and unclear.

I will try to post my main idea here without the frills about the "My Twin" doll since I must join my daughter again soon and do not have much alone time to concentrate even now!

My main point was that I do not find it inherently offensive to have dolls that are very realistic in ways that show healthy, cuddly, full-term babies. I think that dollmakers have always striven to put detail into their dolls. I do find it dark, for want of a better word, to portray innocent babies as premature, ill, or weak.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Imdanny]

It was just so absurd to see gems for sale and then all of a sudden a "reborn" doll. I think that was creepy. I think this is creepy. I think these dolls are a pile of chemical toxin that never should have existed. As if the world needs more pollution. And I wonder- is "reborn" something like "born again"? No gem trader is ever going to be taken seriously selling gems and reborn dolls on the same page. It's just bizarre.

 

[T L]

LD,
I'm so sorry for your losses. I was utterly devastated to hear of your son, and yes, it's difficult to express something after hearing about that. It took me a while to think of something I could say after reading about you and your husband's ordeal. I think your daughter is absolutely beautiful and so very precious. Thank you for the photo. {{{{Hugs}}}}}

 

[Arkteia]

LD - I just saw this thread. I can not express how sorry I feel for you... must have been horrible to go through all of it.
Your daughter is beautiful!

I have not read this thread in the other forum yet. I wanted to, but found myself browsing forums and blogs for collectors of reborn dolls. I am trying to get an answer to the question, does any other artist create "reborn babies" with prematurely or Down syndrome, is it self-therapy for "artist Kathryne" or is she knowingly targeting a very vulnerable group of women.

 

[Nomsdeplume]

LD, I'm so very sorry for your loss. Your daughter is beautiful and a blessing that you absolutely deserve.

The dolls are disturbing, to say the least. I cannot help but be reminded of a scene from the movie "Shutter Island", where a woman, after drowning her children, lays their bodies out on the grass and tells her husband "Let's put them at the table, Andrew. We'll dry them off. We'll change their clothes. They'll be our living dolls. Huh? Tomorrow we can take them on a picnic."

 

[Cehrabehra]

If there is anything I've learned from losing loved ones it is that grief comes in all varieties and we cannot necessarily understand how or why someone else grieves the way they do, but that we should support the choices they make to help them get through it. Questioning how someone else gets through their day isn't any better than someone else questioning you how you get through yours. We are all so different. Life really would be easier if everyone were on the same page, but the fact remains that one person's memory comfort is another person's cruel reminder. I'm sorry you've gone through so much heartache, but I think this is one of those times you have to let others deal with their stuff on their own terms too.

 

[ksinger]

If there is anything I've learned from losing loved ones it is that grief comes in all varieties and we cannot necessarily understand how or why someone else grieves the way they do, but that we should support the choices they make to help them get through it. Questioning how someone else gets through their day isn't any better than someone else questioning you how you get through yours. We are all so different. Life really would be easier if everyone were on the same page, but the fact remains that one person's memory comfort is another person's cruel reminder. I'm sorry you've gone through so much heartache, but I think this is one of those times you have to let others deal with their stuff on their own terms too.

I've lost loved ones. And I promise you, I had no desire to have any of them stuffed, or recreated in life-like doll form and propped up in my living room. And if I DID, I would not expect people to "support me", I would honestly expect them to think me a bit daft.

I understand grief, but I do not understand inflicting your personal oddities connected with it, on other people. OR pandering to a display of grief from another that is clearly not going to get them past it, but is probably going to keep it fresh. When my mother died, I did not go to work weeping every day. Not because I didn't feel like it, but because I truly felt that I did not have the right to inflict that on other people. I deemed my personal grief to NOT trump everyone else's comfort. IMO, people who DO, have other, larger issues than simple grief, which are coming out under the excuse of grieving. I see it as attention seeking. At the very least, it is utterly self-absorbed to a level I find distateful.

Anyone who wants to have a doll of that nature made, certainly has the right to do so, but I also have the right to think them more than a bit off for doing it. I'm with Risingsun on this one.

 

[LD]

Thank you everybody for your thoughts. It's good to read everybody's opinions.

I was incensed that when my post was replicated on another website comments were made that I had deep unresolved issues! It was such an assumption and thankfully I don't. Any loss takes time to get over but if you don't it can become a black all consuming cloud. I'm not sure I would have remained sane had I not been able to deal with it all. Although I'm sure my husband still doubts my sanity on occasion!

Even after reading this thread and posting it elsewhere, RH wrote some completely immature and totally off the mark comments. These things happen and fortunately the moderators of that forum acted swiftly and removed the thread for which I'm very grateful. Strangely, I do understand the desire to make something of absolute beauty but I can't see how a replica premature baby fits that bill. It seems macabre. However, if it helps people deal with what they need to, then I guess it's a good thing - not so good to share it in a way that makes others feel uncomfortable though.

 

[rosetta]

It's completely macabre.

So sorry for your losses LD but so happy to see you have a healthy daughter!

 

[Arkteia]

Thank you everybody for your thoughts. It's good to read everybody's opinions.

I was incensed that when my post was replicated on another website comments were made that I had deep unresolved issues! It was such an assumption and thankfully I don't. Any loss takes time to get over but if you don't it can become a black all consuming cloud. I'm not sure I would have remained sane had I not been able to deal with it all. Although I'm sure my husband still doubts my sanity on occasion!

Even after reading this thread and posting it elsewhere, RH wrote some completely immature and totally off the mark comments. These things happen and fortunately the moderators of that forum acted swiftly and removed the thread for which I'm very grateful. Strangely, I do understand the desire to make something of absolute beauty but I can't see how a replica premature baby fits that bill. It seems macabre. However, if it helps people deal with what they need to, then I guess it's a good thing - not so good to share it in a way that makes others feel uncomfortable though.

LD, my question is from both personal and professional nature. When I was pregnant with my second child, I was told there was a possibility of him having trisomy XVIII, Edward's syndrome, a horrible chromosomal anomaly which could not be even compared with Down syndrome. Luckily, it did not happen, but I had to go through two amnios and lots of other things and worse, went through all these websites written by parents who had kids with it. Even given the fact that I did not have to go through the real ordeal, seeing a reborn doll with Down syndrome on RH ebay site made me feel bad.. call it flashbacks. Now maybe one person out of a thousand who had a preemie would buy this doll...but how many would have real flashbacks? I know many people who have kids with Down syndrome, and they absolutely love their kids...but how many of them would remember the first moment they looked at their child and heard he had Down? A very difficult moment?

What I mean to say is, lots of women browse her website looking for stones. Some of them, like you, have stories of very difficult pregnancies..some never had kids. And then they see exactly what they do not want to remember, what may be haunting some of them! Straight way to PTSD! So for one person who may find consolation in such a doll, there will be dosens of those who will feel horrible! I think it is a very cruel way to make money. Definitely she should not be selling them in the same store where she sells her gems...

Sorry for a long post, I did not want to tell my story, I just wanted my point to be understood.

 

[Maisie]

I'm sorry for your lost babies LD. Your little girl is adorable and you must feel very blessed to have her.

If I saw one of these dolls being pushed about in a pram, being passed off as a real baby, it would freak me out. I have also lost a baby and I would panic thinking it was a dead child. I don't see why people would take them out and act like they are living babies.

 

[risingsun]

Someone upthread stated that these reborn dolls seemed like a harmless pastime. I have to disagree. We are not referring to collectible dolls, but substitutes for deceased babies or for someone who desires, but doesn't or can't have a baby. I saw a pic of a preemie with feeding tubes going into its body, held in place my gauze strips. If one of my clients told me she was involved with reborn babies, I would consider it diagnostic and possibly delusional. Especially the women who take them out and treat them as if they were real babies. We are looking at someone who needs treatment. I am not referring legitmate doll collectors in my comments.

I have been looking for RockHuggers site, without success. As I have read over her previous posts on this site, it appears she has little ability for self reflection or insight. She is extremely well defended, psychologically, and can not see that this business promotes unsound thinking and behavior. She should be reported to eBay for the BBB.

 

[Deia]

I find it completely wrong and insulting to make a doll that has "down syndrome" features. It's insulting to people with down syndrome and their relatives, imo.

It's no wonder these dolls are not widely known, but they seem to have a niche. IMO, the people who use the dolls for substitutes for the deceased or cherish the premature ones/"sick" looking ones for that matter, need psychological help, plain and simple.

 

[AGBF]

Marian and Deia-

I know nothing about Rockhugger and nothing about how LD and she came to this pass. I completely agree with both of you that there is serious pathology involved in the use of of some of these dolls. I would like to clarify a couple of things that I think you may not be clear about, however.

These so-called "reborn" dolls are not something Rockhugger designed. They are produced by many people. One cannot report them to eBay or the Better Business Bureau because they are a worldwide phenomenon.

Many of the dolls made in the so-called "reborn" method are made to look like healthy babies, like any other dolls. I think that using the term, "reborn" for them is a great disservice. I do not know why a doll collector could not commission one to look like a beautiful and healthy baby doll (as some people do) just for the beauty of the doll and not treat the doll any differently from any other precious doll! (In other words, one wouldn't give it to a child to play with, one would keep it on a shelf, in a collector's area.)

Deb/AGBF

 

[Pandora II]

I find it completely wrong and insulting to make a doll that has "down syndrome" features. It's insulting to people with down syndrome and their relatives, imo.

It's no wonder these dolls are not widely known, but they seem to have a niche. IMO, the people who use the dolls for substitutes for the deceased or cherish the premature ones/"sick" looking ones for that matter, need psychological help, plain and simple.

RH's daughter has Down's Syndrome IIRC.

 

[risingsun]

Marian and Deia-

I know nothing about Rockhugger and nothing about how LD and she came to this pass. I completely agree with both of you that there is serious pathology involved in the use of of some of these dolls. I would like to clarify a couple of things that I think you may not be clear about, however.

These so-called "reborn" dolls are not something Rockhugger designed. They are produced by many people. One cannot report them to eBay or the Better Business Bureau because they are a worldwide phenomenon.

Many of the dolls made in the so-called "reborn" method are made to look like healthy babies, like any other dolls. I think that using the term, "reborn" for them is a great disservice. I do not know why a doll collector could not commission one to look like a beautiful and healthy baby doll (as some people do) just for the beauty of the doll and not treat the doll any differently from any other precious doll! (In other words, one wouldn't give it to a child to play with, one would keep it on a shelf, in a collector's area.)

Deb/AGBF

Deb~ I did make an attempt to distinguish between doll collectors and those who use the dolls as a replacement for a miscarriage or a life-like preemie, bruises and all. These are two different circumstances.

 

[Haven]

An episode of TABOO featured women who treat these dolls as real children. Did anyone see it? They also featured people who fall in love and have sex with inanimate objects in the same episode.

 

[Arkteia]

These dolls were called "Reborn" dolls for a reason. They are not just pretty dolls. Apparently, whoever started the trend wanted to capitalize on women's loss or yearning to have a kid; targeted the most vulnerable population. Maybe it was done unwillingly, maybe the person was using a doll as self-therapy and then decided that other people might use them as well.

I think that these dolls are very harmful. First, they seem to be turning into a fad; I see more and more of them on ebay. Which means that they are sold. They have names like "Hope", they have life stories. I think that they are pretty dangerous, that by filling in the void with dolls unhappy women simply stop trying to replace the loss (or absence) by someone real. Stop looking for husbands, stop trying to have kids or exploring other avenues, such as adoption... just live with these babies instead of living, breathing beings. Not all circumstances are hopeless, at least people should have a hope, but with a Reborn "Hope" in a perambulator, who needs the real thing?

I am not commenting on RH's situation; I mentioned it once in the other thread and she got offended. I just feel that dolls with specific problems should not be sold in the same store with the stones.

And if today we have a preemie, why not having a doll with spinal injury? A Reborn victim of sexual abuse? Has anyone seen this thread with Voldemort with blood oozing from his nostrils? It may get scary...

 

[chemgirl]

These dolls kind of remind me of stuffed animals. I mean taxidermy stuffed pets. I could never understand why some people chose to stuff their dead pets and keep them on display in their homes. To me, it seems like they can't let go and need to hold on to their loved one longer than is necessary. They make me uncomfortable. I think these dolls are a similar type of coping mechanism. I can understand why some people might want to do it, but they creep me out at the same time.

 

[Deia]

I find it completely wrong and insulting to make a doll that has "down syndrome" features. It's insulting to people with down syndrome and their relatives, imo.

It's no wonder these dolls are not widely known, but they seem to have a niche. IMO, the people who use the dolls for substitutes for the deceased or cherish the premature ones/"sick" looking ones for that matter, need psychological help, plain and simple.

RH's daughter has Down's Syndrome IIRC.

I remember reading something along those lines but then I think maybe her daughter, ie the doll, is the one with down syndrome? Wouldn't surprise me.

I have a condition as well, and was blessed to only have it lightly affect me that no one usually notices I even have a problem (it only affected my motor skills on my left side), where as most others with my condition are in wheelchairs, cannot speak properly, drool, etc. I would be so incredibly saddened and appalled to see a doll made to look like those that have my condition. It would infuriate me. I am clearly on the other camp when it comes to believing these dolls are a healthy coping mechanism.

Edit - LD, your daughter is absolutely precious, so happy to know you can have a happy ending after all that you went through.

 

[LD]

I find it completely wrong and insulting to make a doll that has "down syndrome" features. It's insulting to people with down syndrome and their relatives, imo.

It's no wonder these dolls are not widely known, but they seem to have a niche. IMO, the people who use the dolls for substitutes for the deceased or cherish the premature ones/"sick" looking ones for that matter, need psychological help, plain and simple.

RH's daughter has Down's Syndrome IIRC.

I remember reading something along those lines but then I think maybe her daughter, ie the doll, is the one with down syndrome? Wouldn't surprise me.

I have a condition as well, and was blessed to only have it lightly affect me that no one usually notices I even have a problem (it only affected my motor skills on my left side), where as most others with my condition are in wheelchairs, cannot speak properly, drool, etc. I would be so incredibly saddened and appalled to see a doll made to look like those that have my condition. It would infuriate me. I am clearly on the other camp when it comes to believing these dolls are a healthy coping mechanism.

Edit - LD, your daughter is absolutely precious, so happy to know you can have a happy ending after all that you went through.

Deia - I'm struggling to find words that don't sound trite but I just wanted to say that you have my utmost respect. Your post is truly inspirational because you are clearly thankful for what you have and not for what you haven't. I hope you don't mind me saying that. x

 

[Deia]

Thanks LD, made me tear up a lil bit hehe, but I was really just posting it as an example that I guess is personal to me