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Recutting Diamond Pavilion (or Crown) that is too steep

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andrew777

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
7
I recently purchased a GIA 3EX stone that is just over 3 carats, but has the following dimensions...
Table- 58
Depth- 62.4
Crown angle- 35.5
Pavilion angle- 41.2

Going by AGS grading this seems to be a 2 or VG cut. I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on recutting it, specifically the pavilion to something like 40.4 or 40.6.

It seems that recutting only the pavilion could lead to an AGS 0/ideal cut and I'm a bit of a perfectionist so I'm very tempted, but the jewelers here seem to advise against it saying I'd lose too much carat weight and that it's risky. Would I really lose much weight by cutting only the pavilion? Maybe I don't understand the cutting process well, but if we're just reducing the pavilion angle by a fraction of a percent I assume we'd lose less than 1% carat weight.

Would appreciate any advice/thoughts.
 
andrew777 said:
I recently purchased a GIA 3EX stone that is just over 3 carats, but has the following dimensions...
Table- 58
Depth- 62.4
Crown angle- 35.5
Pavilion angle- 41.2

Going by AGS grading this seems to be a 2 or VG cut. I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on recutting it, specifically the pavilion to something like 40.4 or 40.6.

It seems that recutting only the pavilion could lead to an AGS 0/ideal cut and I'm a bit of a perfectionist so I'm very tempted, but the jewelers here seem to advise against it saying I'd lose too much carat weight and that it's risky. Would I really lose much weight by cutting only the pavilion? Maybe I don't understand the cutting process well, but if we're just reducing the pavilion angle by a fraction of a percent I assume we'd lose less than 1% carat weight.

Would appreciate any advice/thoughts.
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Your best bet would be to send it off to be evaluated to see what would need to be done to hit ideal proportions.
 
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I'd return and get a better cut stone, if possible. Recutting is risky, but many here have had it done successfully. But that was with family stones or stones bought way before we knew about cut.

If you do want to inquire, Brian Gavin is who most people here have used.
 
HI:

What DS said.

cheers--Sharon
 
So, here’s the rub. You didn’t say how close to 3 carats you are but if your recutting causes it to go under 3 carats (even 2.99) you’re going to lose a crap-ton of value. Now, you’ll increase the value with the better cut but probably not enough to offset dropping below 3.

So just decide ahead of time if you’re okay with that trade. If not, I wouldn’t risk it.
 
diamondseeker2006 said:
I'd return and get a better cut stone, if possible. Recutting is risky, but many here have had it done successfully. But that was with family stones or stones bought way before we knew about cut.

If you do want to inquire, Brian Gavin is who most people here have used.
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I was originally looking for a better cut stone, but the only ideal cut ones I could find were either much larger and pricier or in the DEF range and priced a good $25k more.
 
ILikeShiny said:
So, here’s the rub. You didn’t say how close to 3 carats you are but if your recutting causes it to go under 3 carats (even 2.99) you’re going to lose a crap-ton of value. Now, you’ll increase the value with the better cut but probably not enough to offset dropping below 3.

So just decide ahead of time if you’re okay with that trade. If not, I wouldn’t risk it.
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It's 3.06 so there's not much room for error. I've seen some recut reports on here where diamonds with worse angles lose 5-10% of their size, but those seem to be pretty major jobs. My assumption is that if it's only a pavilion recut that isn't too drastic it might only lose 1-3%. Maybe I'm wrong, but even if I was in a range where I could lose 2-5% I'd probably risk it as I'm not too concerned about resale value, just making the stone appear better. Again, I'm no expert and my assumptions are solely based off of the fact that if all we're doing is shaving the pavilion angle down by .6 or .8 we shouldn't lose much more than 1% of the size, but my pen/paper geometry may have no bearing on the real world results. For all I know it may not be possible to recut the pavilion alone.
 
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andrew777 said:
It's 3.06 so there's not much room for error. I've seen some recut reports on here where diamonds with worse angles lose 5-10% of their size, but those seem to be pretty major jobs. My assumption is that if it's only a pavilion recut that isn't too drastic it might only lose 1-3%. Maybe I'm wrong, but even if I was in a range where I could lose 2-5% I'd probably risk it as I'm not too concerned about resale value, just making the stone appear better. Again, I'm no expert and my assumptions are solely based off of the fact that if all we're doing is shaving the pavilion angle down by .6 or .8 we shouldn't lose much more than 1% of the size, but my pen/paper geometry may have no bearing on the real world results. For all I know it may not be possible to recut the pavilion alone.
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I don’t know the answer to that. But it seems like a few phone calls could tell you what you need to know.

I know Whiteflash doesn’t recut diamonds. Brian Gavin does. And I believe High Performance Diamonds does too (?). Those are really the only three *I* would consider if you’re looking to make it the best cut possible. If you just want an improved cut that isn’t necessarily aiming to be an AGS000, then there are a couple of other companies you could reach out to.
 
Melissa told me that HPD won't do recuts.
 
@ILikeShiny - Do you know who will do improved but not AGS 0 cuts? I know Southwest Diamond Cutters will, but I don't know of anyone else.
 
kindred said:
@ILikeShiny - Do you know who will do improved but not AGS 0 cuts? I know Southwest Diamond Cutters will, but I don't know of anyone else.
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That’s the only one I know of that kind of gives a scale of “how much improvement do you want”. But IDJ does recuts too and I’m sure they aim for great improvement; they don’t offer precision/branded cut stones though, which is why I didn’t put them with the three above (which strive for H&A, AGS000, and their own criteria to meet their branded standards).

From what I understand from going through my recutting experience, you can’t really tell the cutter when to stop. It’s an art to them, and they’ll only stop when they’re happy with their finished product. That’s why I’m perplexed by the SDC model mentioned above. Who determines what makes a certain level of improvement? My idea of better might not be theirs. Or what if in the process of cutting the pavilion they went slightly too far (after all, it is a matter of 1/10’s of millimeters we’re talking about) and to correct it they needed to take some off of the crown, but that would drop it below an agreed weight? It just seems to have too many unanswered questions for my comfort. I’d rather give it to the experts and say “please do your best!” :lol:
 
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@ILikeShiny, Just saw your added comments. SDC told me that they send to GIA not AGS. They also said that they cut to the HCA though, so I'm not entirely sure what to make of that. That was regarding their highest tier.

@andrew777, Sorry to hijack your thread!
 
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What is the point of taking risk to structural damage a stone, lose carat weight, pay money, etc. and then not go for the best? Please call Brian Gavin or @Wink and see what they tell you. Do it right, or don't do it at all is my mentality.

You may want to search some stones on WF or similar sites where you can view data transparently and that has good videos. Get an idea of the angles you like as I think they all have different personalities. For instance, my current sweet spot is a 54-55 table with 34.5 crown and 40.7-40.8 pavilion.

I know you are talking about re-cutting ONLY the pavilion but I am not convinced that will be the best method. Think about it. The pavilion is the deepest part of the stone. While you may be taking less angle, you are doing so over a longer span of length x the circumference of the stone.

I didn't see your cert but you said total depth was 62.4%. I saw a similar diamond where 43% of the depth was in the pavilion and only 15% or so was in the crown. Theoretically you can take almost 3x the amount of crown angle because it's almost 3x less depth than the pavilion angle (rough math 15% x 3 = 45% and pavilion is equal to 43%).

My point is if you had the same preference as me, then you may be able to squeeze out a 34.5 crown and 40.8 pavilion and not lose any more carat weight than staying with a 35.5 crown & 40.6 pavilion.

I have a CAD program but it's basic and I don't have the time to build you a 3D model or I could tell you precisely what it would be. It's quite possible one of the guys like @Wink, @Karl_K or @John Pollard can use their fancy diamond modeling software to quickly tell you the best angles & table to utilize to maximize carat weight and enhance cut quality.

As others stated, it would be very nice to stay above 3ct if possible, due to the premium associated with that magic weight.
 
Threadjack again -
ILikeShiny, After looking at SWD's page, I would imagine that they are probably doing a lot more cut from rough (and maybe repair jobs) than recuts and they probably have a lot more call for weight retention than great cuts.
http://southwestdiamondcutters.com/diamond-cutting/



@andrew777 - Just to be clear, I would not suggest that you contact anyone other than Brian Gavin because you are already starting with a GIA Ex/Ex/Ex and want an AGS 0 cut.
 
Thinking about this some more, if you do change the crown that will also have to change the table size slightly and also likely the thickness of the crown. So probably less than 58% table and less than 15% depth in the crown portion (assuming 15% was your starting point).

Also, it seems logical you would lose a little from cutting tools/techniques as well although I anticipate that would be a small amount.
 
@sledge wrote "What is the point of taking risk to structural damage a stone, lose carat weight, pay money, etc. and then not go for the best? Please call Brian Gavin or @Wink and see what they tell you. Do it right, or don't do it at all is my mentality."

Personally, my thought had been that I would love to have an AGS 000 with beautiful light return and nice arrows but that I might, if given the choice, make a choice like ever so slightly "imperfect" hearts over too much ct. weight loss or diameter or some other undesirable outcome. At any rate, I have narrowed it down to just Brian Gavin at this point.
 
kindred said:
@ILikeShiny, Just saw your added comments. SDC told me that they send to GIA not AGS. They also said that they cut to the HCA though, so I'm not entirely sure what to make of that. That was regarding their highest tier.

@andrew777, Sorry to hijack your thread!
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I used southwest diamond cutters to recut an OEC I had with a chip. Ashley was amazing. Before the recut the diamond was 1.56ct, after fixing it 99% he called me and said the chip was gone and the stone was now 1.5ct. There was another small chip on the underside but didn’t want to touch it without getting my approval to go under 1.5ct.

If I ever decide to recut my engagement ring, I would have them do it.

Edit- I actually had Ashley look at my engagement ring when I picked up the OEC to get his opinion on what would need to be done to it to brighten it up. He was 100% willing to work with me to make it more ideal, but staying within my wishes to be as conservative as possible with a recut.

They are also the cutters that Whiteflash recommended when they told me they no longer do recuts.
 
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I wouldn't consider anyone besides Brian Gavin, because they are the only superideal vendors who'll do recuts. But your stone will be gone for several weeks and delay your proposal.

I didn't see you answer if you can return this diamond. If you can, then let us show you some diamonds that would be better. We just need your budget and color/clarity range. I'd far rather have a 2.5-3 ct stone that is better cut, personally.
 
I do not recommend recuting your stone. I did it 3 times and there was 7%, 10% and 20% loss respectively in each case. So do not assume that you will loose few carat points only. The diamond weight is mostly in the pavilion. Most probably your diamond will become under so desirable 3ct. Apart you will spend additional money, roughly $350 per carat plus insured shipping, say $1500. And all this for what? For some points down of the HCA score? Does is worth the price?!?
My suggestion is try to love this diamond as it is. Or trade it for another one that pleases you more.
 
EvaEvans said:
I do not recommend recuting your stone. I did it 3 times and there was 7%, 10% and 20% loss respectively in each case. So do not assume that you will loose few carat points only. The diamond weight is mostly in the pavilion. Most probably your diamond will become under so desirable 3ct. Apart you will spend additional money, roughly $350 per carat plus insured shipping, say $1500. And all this for what? For some points down of the HCA score? Does is worth the price?!?
My suggestion is try to love this diamond as it is. Or trade it for another one that pleases you more.
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Agree about majority of weight being in pavilion but OP needs to speak with a cutter and fully understand the situation before committing either way.

Also I would agree that if there is a return or trade option that would be my first choice. However if beyond the return period, then many places require 2x original cost to upgrade. On a 3ct stone that is a considerable amount of money that I'm not certain I would do personally. If that were the case, recutting for $1500 or so is a bargain.

Rather it's the right choice really depends on so many variables. I personally would never recut just to hit ideal numbers. But if I were to look at the stone everyday and not feel satisfied and happy then I think it's a very good choice.
 
diamondseeker2006 said:
I wouldn't consider anyone besides Brian Gavin, because they are the only superideal vendors who'll do recuts. But your stone will be gone for several weeks and delay your proposal.

I didn't see you answer if you can return this diamond. If you can, then let us show you some diamonds that would be better. We just need your budget and color/clarity range. I'd far rather have a 2.5-3 ct stone that is better cut, personally.
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I've had a lot of trouble finding anything over 2.5 carats in my price range (which is $40,000). I could probably swap the stone for another, but the only great cuts I've found within my range are 2-2.25 carat stones (they are a bit cheaper however). The very well cut 2.75-3 carat stones were priced much, much higher. I'd want H color/VS2 at a minimum. I don't need to be over the 3 carat mark which is why in some respects I wouldn't mind a recut if it stays close to 3 carats (my wife loves the stone so if it ends up being more brilliant and even weight to go down to around 2.9 carats I wouldn't really mind).
 
andrew777 said:
I've had a lot of trouble finding anything over 2.5 carats in my price range (which is $40,000). I could probably swap the stone for another, but the only great cuts I've found within my range are 2-2.25 carat stones (they are a bit cheaper however). The very well cut 2.75-3 carat stones were priced much, much higher. I'd want H color/VS2 at a minimum. I don't need to be over the 3 carat mark which is why in some respects I wouldn't mind a recut if it stays close to 3 carats (my wife loves the stone so if it ends up being more brilliant and even weight to go down to around 2.9 carats I wouldn't really mind).
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Wait, WHAT? That's crazy. o_O

A quick search and I already found this one, which is pretty much the best cut you can get and is under budget while still meeting your specs - https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9231

I'll be back with more!
 
ILikeShiny said:
Wait, WHAT? That's crazy. o_O

A quick search and I already found this one, which is pretty much the best cut you can get and is under budget while still meeting your specs - https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9231

I'll be back with more!
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@andrew777 - Here are some more:

2.70 H/SI1 (eye-clean): https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/2.700-h-si1-round-diamond-ags-104085060021

2.54 H/VS2: https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/2.541-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104098900014

2.52 F/SI1 (eye-clean): https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3954423.htm

2.58 G/SI1 (eye-clean): https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4016766.htm

2.50 G/VS2: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3986369.htm

Honestly, return your HCA 6 diamond and blow your wife out of the water with one of these!
 
andrew777 said:
I've had a lot of trouble finding anything over 2.5 carats in my price range (which is $40,000). I could probably swap the stone for another, but the only great cuts I've found within my range are 2-2.25 carat stones (they are a bit cheaper however). The very well cut 2.75-3 carat stones were priced much, much higher. I'd want H color/VS2 at a minimum. I don't need to be over the 3 carat mark which is why in some respects I wouldn't mind a recut if it stays close to 3 carats (my wife loves the stone so if it ends up being more brilliant and even weight to go down to around 2.9 carats I wouldn't really mind).
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Why bother potentially loosing value, damaging the stone and added expense then? I presume that the stone is for her and she will be the one wearing it, if she loves it save yourself the headache. Put the money for the recut into a fabulous setting that she loves and call it a day. Just my 2 cents.

Edit: I will let the experts weigh in on the performance of your current stone, but just commenting on the idea of recutting a stone that your wife is happy with just meet your "ideal". If you are both unhappy with the stone, return and start fresh if you can.
 
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ILikeShiny said:
@andrew777 - Here are some more:

2.70 H/SI1 (eye-clean): https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/2.700-h-si1-round-diamond-ags-104085060021

2.54 H/VS2: https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/2.541-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104098900014

2.52 F/SI1 (eye-clean): https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3954423.htm

2.58 G/SI1 (eye-clean): https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4016766.htm

2.50 G/VS2: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3986369.htm

Honestly, return your HCA 6 diamond and blow your wife out of the water with one of these!
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Unfortunately I can't return for cash, but would have to do a swap for something of equivalent price or more. I really like the first one and to be honest it's within $500 of what I paid for this stone. I wouldn't mind a recut that ends up looking like that one (and wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being a tad larger as dropping to 2.7c would be a 12% drop).
 
Where did you buy the stone? We may be able to help you find a better cut stone so you can swap.

I'm with the others, I'm not sure I'd make this a big deal since your wife is happy. However, if it bothers YOU this much you need to discuss it together first.
 
andrew777 said:
Unfortunately I can't return for cash, but would have to do a swap for something of equivalent price or more. I really like the first one and to be honest it's within $500 of what I paid for this stone. I wouldn't mind a recut that ends up looking like that one (and wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being a tad larger as dropping to 2.7c would be a 12% drop).
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So you need a virtual inventory stone that your store could call in? Is that right?
 
@andrew777 - Assuming what I wrote above is correct, here are the diamonds I'd be most interested in in that case. Take the GIA numbers and give them to your jeweler and ask them to bring them in for you to see in person:

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3991721.htm (this one has strong blue fluorescence so you'd want to check for cloudiness/haziness, but that's only seen in a very small percentage of SBF stones; I have one and love it)

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4017346.htm (not crazy about the plot of inclusions, but it's a VS2 so possibly worth a shot)

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3940521.htm
 
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