Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage ring?

[Demelza]

Well, for good or bad, I've stumbled upon a really beautiful and unusual double antique pear cut ring with a "duchess" step cut in the center. The old cut pears are each GIA certed: One is 1.23 and the other is 1.14; one is D color and the other is E; and one is SI1 and the other VS. The ring is signed Birks, Ellis and Ryrie, an old Canadian jewelry house. It's much more beautiful in person than in the attached pictures. I am thinking of somehow trying to turn my MRB into this ring in the form of either a trade or consignment, but I can't decide if that is foolish given the value of my MRB. But I can't determine a value for this ring since I've never seen anything like it. It would appear that someone could purchase colorless GIA pears in this weight range for between 5-7k, but would well-cut colorless antique pears trade for more or less? And what about the ring as a whole with its provenance? Would love to hear opinions and thoughts! Thanks!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

HI Demelza,
I'm not an expert on the history- but if it's Birks Canada- they do have a very fine reputation ( akin to the "Tiffany's of Canada")

I'd say that antique stones will bring more than most modern cut stones. Used to be different years ago- but the popularity of antique diamonds has changed that.
Given that there are cutters cutting antique style stones today, it's not possible to say they're old for sure- but they look very cool, with an antique vibe.
When we've purchased stones along those lines it has cost us more than modern cut stones.

I hope you can find a way to get maximum value on your MRB- consumers generally have a very hard time reclaiming anywhere near what it will cost them to replace the stone when they sell to a dealer.

 

[Niel]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

how unusual!


price? no idea.... the place that is selling it, is it like Lang antiques or something that charges full price, or are the dealing in estate prices?

 

[Demelza]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

HI Demelza,
I'm not an expert on the history- but if it's Birks Canada- they do have a very fine reputation ( akin to the "Tiffany's of Canada")

I'd say that antique stones will bring more than most modern cut stones. Used to be different years ago- but the popularity of antique diamonds has changed that.
Given that there are cutters cutting antique style stones today, it's not possible to say they're old for sure- but they look very cool, with an antique vibe.
When we've purchased stones along those lines it has cost us more than modern cut stones.

I hope you can find a way to get maximum value on your MRB- consumers generally have a very hard time reclaiming anywhere near what it will cost them to replace the stone when they sell to a dealer.

Thank you. This is very helpful.

Yes, it is Birk's Canada -- or some close relative of it. Henry Birks and Sons amalgamated with several luxury jewelers in the early part of the 20th century and in the early 30s was known as Birks, Ellis, and Ryrie.

I feel fairly certain they are in fact old given that the ring is hallmarked, but I suppose there is no way to be 100% certain.

Are you able to say how much more? For instance, would 9k retail per stone seem outrageous given that they are in fact GIA certed and they are colorless?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

It would not e possible for me to give any specific advice on the price- I'm sorry Demelza. There are just too many variables- it's necessary for any professional to examine stones first hand to make any sort of pricing conclusion in a responsible manner

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

Dem, that is really beautiful and unique! I am sure you don't mean an even trade, though, right? Because your RB is worth considerably more, I would feel sure. I am not a jeweler but I don't see antique diamonds running more than ideal cut modern stones or ideal cut antique style stones (and I say that primarily observing prices at OWD and JBEG). Now that may be different if the brand commands a premium, of course. That would not be a brand we are really familiar with here in the US so I don't think it would get the price an antique Tiffany ring would get, for example. I'd be willing to pay around $20k or so for it if the condition was great and the stones were well cut (as these appear to be). But it is hard to estimate any added value due to that brand not being commonly sold here.

Do you have independent jewelry appraisers where you are?

 

[gemmyblond]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

Hi Demelza – I’m a real newbie at posting (but longtime lurker and learner), who’s trying to be helpful & join the community. I’m also a really longtime student and collector of antique/vintage/estate jewelry of all sorts, espec Art Deco & Edwardian.
I’m actually familiar with this ring, and I believe I also know the sellers (or at least I did know who was selling it a little while ago). I don’t want to disclose unnecessary details, but do want to share what I know about them. I saw them at a venue earlier this year and spent some time checking out their pieces and asking prices.
In general, their pieces were lovely and seemed to be 'the real deal', to my eye (but take that for what it costs you!) There was nothing that led me to believe they were anything less than honest or forthcoming. In terms of pricing, I do remember that their asking prices seemed to be on the quite high side to me (and the friend I was with, who’s also a longtime collector)…certainly no bargain to start out. I'm very familiar with Lang's, and their pricing seemed more similar than not, to make a very broad generalization. Mind you, I didn’t negotiate on anything, nor do I know anyone who’s purchased there… just my general impression after taking a look around at what they had & what they were quoting.
They did seem quite credible and also pretty popular. Not a huge number of pieces, but what they did have was interesting and a bit different. I was also told that they’re very popular with the local crowd in their town who are into vintage jewelry, and they've gotten some good press.
Sorry to be so cryptic – just wanted to try to be helpful. I know I’m new to posting and so don’t have a lot of credibility -- but I truly have no hidden agenda here, no axe to grind, and am not interested in this piece myself. I just recognized the ring, remembered it so clearly and who was selling it (then), and wanted to try to help (even a little; hope I did).
Good luck with it in any case, as it’s truly a unique and lovely piece!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

Welcome, gemmy! What a great post! We will hope you will stick around as there are many here who love antique jewelry!

 

[Demelza]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

Dem, that is really beautiful and unique! I am sure you don't mean an even trade, though, right? Because your RB is worth considerably more, I would feel sure. I am not a jeweler but I don't see antique diamonds running more than ideal cut modern stones or ideal cut antique style stones (and I say that primarily observing prices at OWD and JBEG). Now that may be different if the brand commands a premium, of course. That would not be a brand we are really familiar with here in the US so I don't think it would get the price an antique Tiffany ring would get, for example. I'd be willing to pay around $20k or so for it if the condition was great and the stones were well cut (as these appear to be). But it is hard to estimate any added value due to that brand not being commonly sold here.

Do you have independent jewelry appraisers where you are?

No, I don't mean an even trade, but I would not be surprised if that is what the vendor offers since they would likely turn around and sell it to a dealer at below wholesale prices. Your price is very close to what it's listed for which feels like a lot to me, but when I take into account the rarity of the stones (colorless well-cut antique pears) and the ring's provenance (I would think Birks would indeed add some value since it is a renowned jewelry house, even today), I guess it's not too far off. The biggest hurdle, though, is what do I do with my MRB because I can't do anything about this pear ring until I figure that out!

Hi Demelza – I’m a real newbie at posting (but longtime lurker and learner), who’s trying to be helpful & join the community. I’m also a really longtime student and collector of antique/vintage/estate jewelry of all sorts, espec Art Deco & Edwardian.
I’m actually familiar with this ring, and I believe I also know the sellers (or at least I did know who was selling it a little while ago). I don’t want to disclose unnecessary details, but do want to share what I know about them. I saw them at a venue earlier this year and spent some time checking out their pieces and asking prices.
In general, their pieces were lovely and seemed to be 'the real deal', to my eye (but take that for what it costs you!) There was nothing that led me to believe they were anything less than honest or forthcoming. In terms of pricing, I do remember that their asking prices seemed to be on the quite high side to me (and the friend I was with, who’s also a longtime collector)…certainly no bargain to start out. I'm very familiar with Lang's, and their pricing seemed more similar than not, to make a very broad generalization. Mind you, I didn’t negotiate on anything, nor do I know anyone who’s purchased there… just my general impression after taking a look around at what they had & what they were quoting.
They did seem quite credible and also pretty popular. Not a huge number of pieces, but what they did have was interesting and a bit different. I was also told that they’re very popular with the local crowd in their town who are into vintage jewelry, and they've gotten some good press.
Sorry to be so cryptic – just wanted to try to be helpful. I know I’m new to posting and so don’t have a lot of credibility -- but I truly have no hidden agenda here, no axe to grind, and am not interested in this piece myself. I just recognized the ring, remembered it so clearly and who was selling it (then), and wanted to try to help (even a little; hope I did).
Good luck with it in any case, as it’s truly a unique and lovely piece!

Thanks so much for chiming in here! Your post was indeed helpful and very much jives with my impression of the sellers. They said they've had the ring for about 6 months and that it was acquired from a dealer in Florida. I would agree that their pricing seems on the high side, but not unexpected given their location in a very upscale part of a major metropolitan city. They also mentioned that this particular ring cost them quite a lot, so I suspect they have less wiggle room than they might otherwise. Both owners are very friendly and I agree that they seem credible and honest. But there are likely no steals to be had here, but this is one of those pieces that doesn't come along very often. I'm just not sure how much that's worth to me. Welcome to PS!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

Dem, that is really beautiful and unique! I am sure you don't mean an even trade, though, right? Because your RB is worth considerably more, I would feel sure. I am not a jeweler but I don't see antique diamonds running more than ideal cut modern stones or ideal cut antique style stones (and I say that primarily observing prices at OWD and JBEG). Now that may be different if the brand commands a premium, of course. That would not be a brand we are really familiar with here in the US so I don't think it would get the price an antique Tiffany ring would get, for example. I'd be willing to pay around $20k or so for it if the condition was great and the stones were well cut (as these appear to be). But it is hard to estimate any added value due to that brand not being commonly sold here.

Do you have independent jewelry appraisers where you are?

Really good point DS!
I was not clear in my first post.
I wrote that antique stones bring more than "most modern stones" which is overly general.
More accurate is that typical antique stones will bring prices similar to "generic" modern stones ( such as Cushion Modified Brilliant)- whereas years back they were less costly.
By "typical antique" I mean cushion , Old Mine Brilliant, or OEC stones that have what might be seen as "deficiencies" in symmetry, or condition.
IOW- wonky makes, and abrasions.
Lately I see stones like that going for prices comparable to Cushion Modified Brilliant stones, for example.
But newly cut antique style stones are more comparable to branded "super ideal" stones in that they bring a premium over true old stones as I mentioned above.
Having said that- pear stones are more rare in these antique style cuts - so they may not follow that same pricing principles as more typical antique OMB, or OEC's with fair symmetry, and abrasions.

 

[derbygal]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

Just have to chime in and say I think those pears are mesmerizing.

 

[sphenequeen]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

When considering "value" on this ring, I just want to add that a beautiful piece like this is worth more to a collector of vintage pieces than the sum of its parts. I think you would have a very hard time replicating something like this, so to view it in terms of a breakdown of stone shapes and qualities will do you no good. How does this piece make you feel? How would you feel if it slipped through your fingers? I think these notions have value as well. Oh... And it's a signed piece.

This ring is soooo incredibly cool. Sell your RBC (for a price you're comfortable with) and get this ring! You can always get another RBC. THIS, on the other hand, doesn't come around every day.

 

[Hera]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

A well cut OEC round diamond can sell in the range of a well cut modern RB. In general Old Mine diamonds sell lower than OECs.

I had a whole thing written out and it had so many if's, and's and maybe's that it was barely coherent. Pricing is complex. On the low end would be the parts only (and I debated how much such a high color would affect the pricing but wasn't sure it added that much because pears in general don't have the mass appeal). I'm thinking low end $6-8k for both stones. On the high end, it would include someone understanding that it's a signed piece, so I put that at $12-15k. I don't think I could safely go higher than that but do keep in mind, I think in pricing on the more conservative end. I realize that's a wide range but that's how pricing sort of goes on old rings sometimes.

Sorry to be so vague but it depends on so many factors. I find the old mine pears absolutely stunning and I go crazy when I see them.

 

[arkieb1]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

I'd put the price as $15 000 to $16 000 max as a decent price only because of the high colour of the stones. Relatively speaking the stones aren't that big. Full retail $18 000 to $19 500.

I still believe you would be better off listing your RB on Bistro and taking offers and then going back with a cash offer. If you do a trade they are likely to charge you the max value for the new ring and give you a really lowball amount for your own stone. Whereas, if you have cash nearly all vendors will drop the price and haggle for a straight out cash sale.

I like the chubby shape of the pears, do the bowties bother you in real life?

 

[MissGotRocks]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

As you well know, I am the furthest thing from an expert on old stones. The ring is certainly unique but it would also have to be appreciated for what it is and more importantly, for what it has been. I assume this ring speaks to you on all of those levels.

I would sell the MRB outright though before I went shopping for something new. If you don't get back for the MRB at least what you paid, I think you might regret the deal down the line. It's almost like trading in a great car on a new one but knowing full well that you didn't get the value for the old car towards the new one. When it's time to sell or trade the new one, you will again be reminded of the loss you took on the first car. Always better to sell outright and buy outright unless you are trading up and getting full value for the trade. I feel quite certain that the MRB is worth more than this new ring - trading and giving you additional cash for the difference would be great but it doesn't usually work that way.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

I do think you can sell the current stone in the low $30k range probably, so I agree with MGR that I'd try to sell my stone myself to recoup the most money possible. It can take awhile, but when the right buyer comes along, it can benefit them and you. You should be able to buy that ring and have $10k+ left over for another project!

 

[sphenequeen]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

So curious, Demelza, what did you decide?

 

[Demelza]

Re: Reasonable price for unusual and rare singed vintage rin

So curious, Demelza, what did you decide?

Thanks for checking in! And thanks to the wisdom of my PS friends, both online and off, I have taken a step back and realized that trading in at a loss would be very foolish. I've also come to realize over the last few days that, while this pear ring is fantastic and unusual and cool, it is not worth the price tag for me. I think I would be happiest either keeping my MRB or using the proceeds to get an old cut in the 3-4 ct range. I have relisted my MRB on DB, but for some bizarre reason, I just realized this morning that the company from whom my MRB was purchased offers a lifetime trade up policy! I can trade my MRB with them and they can source an old cut for me. That is the simplest solution and doesn't involve taking a loss, although it doesn't allow me to do my own hunting around which is what I would prefer. Anyway, lots of options to consider. Thanks again for your interest and for chiming in!