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REASONABLE PRICE FOR A 2.31 CARAT

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MARIA62

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Messages
6
I am planning to upgrade my current ring to a 2.30 carat. I will be paying $36K for the new ring and I'm not sure if I'm paying a reasonable price. I bought my original ring(from a brick and mortar store since internet purchase was not available then(1989).....below is the specification of 2.30 carat

round brilliant
8.65X8.71X5.24MM
2.30 CARAT
DEPTH 60.4%
TABLE 58%
GIRDLE THIN TO MEDIUM FACETED
CULET NONE
POLISH VERY GOOD
SYMMETRY VERY GOOD
CLARITY GRADE IF
FLUORESCENCE NONE


I'd love to purchase a superb cert diamond but I can't exhange my current ring to any internet vendor. The price range for 2plus carat is approximately 34K for an F color and a VS1 in clarity whereas if I exchange my ring to the same vendor I would only pay for the price difference ( 2.30 carat price less old ring). Am I paying a good price for the 2.30 carat ring? Thanks.
 

scotch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Messages
94
Now there's an interesting one. Assuming a 1.2% girdle, the crown would very shallow (28.45 deg.), so it gets an AGS 9, and HCA score is 2.3. Yet GemAdviser scores are almost off the scale, with excellent marks for light return & leakage. I have a feeling that the GemAdviser scores might be wrong. Also the fisheye score looks fishy (pardon). Could anybody comment? Pls. check out the enclosed .gem file.

Maria, what color is the stone?

Regards,
Scotch
 

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scotch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Messages
94
Maria,

I believe 36k for a well cut 2.30ct, E/IF stone would be a very good price, so I suspect there's got to be something wrong with the cut. Check out Garry Holloway's comments at http://www.hollowaycutadviser.com/bril_fire_scint.asp. This stone has a shallow crown and a deep pavillion, (now that I think about it, that would explain the excellent GemAdviser scores, because the light is almost directly reflected back). But in the presence of a human head, the light would be blocked, and the stone would look dead. I would not buy it unless I had inspected it myself thoroughly, including using an idealscope.

Best regards,
Scotch
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
----------------
On 10/21/2002 12:16:43 PM

Hi Scotch,

It is an E color.....
----------------


May I ask your motivation for wanting an E/IF stone?

If you went with a VVS stone G color you would save yourself about 15,000. You will see nothing w/ the naked eye and a G color is very white. IMHO, I would regroup. I would visit another jewelery store and look at the difference between a GIA graded EF stone & a GIA graded G stone. I would view the difference between an IF & a VVS stone. Once set many folks can't see a difference between EFG.

My preference in order are Cut, then a balancing act between carat, color & cost.

Have you read Garry's tutorial?

Sorry if you have already sorted this out - it's just that many people just buy on high specs when they would be perfectly happy w/ a VERY nice 2.3c stone and saving the money to buy a great diamond bracelet to go along with it.
 

MARIA62

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Messages
6
Hi Fire and Ice,

I do want an E color since my current stone is an F and a VVS1 and I would have been happy with an E -VS1 in clarity.......but they only have that stone with that size currently in stock and an E-IF Clarity seems perfect..I would like to go to a different dealer but as I need to upgrade( I bought my original diamond from them) I don't have a choice...unless I could come up with over 30K....and wait.
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
Maria, it is not uncommon for the jeweler to request in a stone that you want. Maybe I am misunderstanding here; but, it seems (from an outside view) that they are just trying to make the deal happen quickly w/o talking about your options. This observation is said with all due respect & concern.

Are these GIA certed?

Are you viewing the stone loose?

What are the parameters of your trade-in stone?

Are you upgrading the color, carat weight or both?

With the kind of numbers ($) you are talking about, they should be willing to provide you with a sarin report.

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish....that is why I am asking. When one throws out a 36k figure, I just want them to make sure they have explored all avenues of a diamond purchase.

I know when I first looked into purchasing a larger stone - I was steadfast w/ a certain color & clarity grade......until my jeweler & various tutorials (like the great one here on pricescope) educated me and showed me the difference (or rather lack thereof)between differently graded stones.

I understand being limited to the place where you purchased your orgininal stone; but, I'm not sure they are being fair to you. You're not talking about a few thousand dollars. You have the option of waiting or walking. This is a BUYER'S market.

Good luck
 

MARIA62

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Messages
6
Are these GIA certed? GIA CERTIFIED

Are you viewing the stone loose? YES

What are the parameters of your trade-in stone? F-VVS1 7.76X7.84X4.85MM(1.80C), DEPTH 62.2%, TABLE 56% , THIN TO SLIGHTLY THICK, CULET-NONE, POLISH-VERY GOOD, SYMMETRY-GOOD, FLOURESCENCE-NONE

Are you upgrading the color, carat weight or both? YES TO BOTH

With the kind of numbers ($) you are talking about, they should be willing to provide you with a sarin report.

I MUST BE SO S%%@%@%, I DID NOT ASK FOR ONE...

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish....that is why I am asking. When one throws out a 36k figure, I just want them to make sure they have explored all avenues of a diamond purchase.

I JUST WANT TO UPGRADE...AND SINCE I HAVE KNOWN THEM, I THOUGHT THEY ARE TRUTHFUL WHEN THEY SAID THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY OTHER STONE WITH THAT SIZE SINCE WE WERE LOOKING FOR ALMOST 2 MONTHS.....

NOW AFTER READING ALL THE RESPONSE I FEEL AWFUL..I ALREADY PUT A DOWNPAYMENT AND I WAS SUPPOSED TO PICK THE RING BY SATURDAY.... THEY DO HAVE A RETURN POLICY ..FOR CASH WHICH IS LESS 15% OF THE PURCHASE PRICE.....I GUESS IF I CHANGE MY MIND ...I WILL LOOSE $5,400.00 ..WHICH SUCKS!!!
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
----------------
On 10/21/2002 4:16:56 PM

NOW AFTER READING ALL THE RESPONSE I FEEL AWFUL..I ALREADY PUT A DOWNPAYMENT AND I WAS SUPPOSED TO PICK THE RING BY SATURDAY.... THEY DO HAVE A RETURN POLICY ..FOR CASH WHICH IS LESS 15% OF THE PURCHASE PRICE.....I GUESS IF I CHANGE MY MIND ...I WILL LOOSE $5,400.00 ..WHICH SUCKS!!!

----------------


Maria, if you are happy & love the stone & have the money then go for it. I was under the impression that you were in the process of looking. I did not know you had already decided upon this stone. Sounds like this is what you want.

Everyone's preference is different. Luckily, we have many options for different people. Some people want all the scientific stuff on a stone...when for the most part ....you see it - you love it. At the end of the day, its all about a visual on the stone...and the romance.

You are speaking w/ an anal retentive shopper (not an anal diamond buyer). I had to see & compare till the cows came home. Some people aren't that way.

It may be the only larger stone they have in STOCK...and it sounds like a darn good stone.
Again, if you have decided and love the stone then go for it.

I don't think anyone here is saying that it doesn't sound like a nice stone. If fact, from your description it sounds GREAT!

Good luck and wear in good health.
 

scotch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Messages
94
Maria,

If you should feel unhappy about the deal or not should depend on if you liked the new diamond better than the old one when you compared them directly next to each other, how much comfort you get from the fact that its a bigger stone with better color and clarity, and not least on the price difference they charged you for the swap. If the price the took the old ring in for was fair, and you like the way the new stone looks compared to the old one, you may not have done so bad at all.

In any event, if you should change your mind and return the stone to the store today or tomorrow, there is no way they should charge you 15%. That doesn't sound right to me. How long did you have to make your decision?

Scotch
 

mbn

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 8, 2001
Messages
212
wow, 36K for a 2.30c stone!

I am sure store would be willing to look for another stone for you provide you are willing to wait. It took about 2+ months and I went through 6 stones before choosing the one I want. I made sure store has 100% trade up policy so I didn't lose money except for the platinum prongs.

Most stores I know, I lose 30% if u decide not to buy, some stores, 10% if you change mind and want a different stone, so it's very important to check store policy to avoid headache later on if you change mind.

I have a friend who overpaid about 6K to upgrade to 2.10c stone at B&M store.

Think about F or G color and VS2 clarity, it looks just as nice and white and sparkly and save you lots of $.

In either case, if u can't revert decision, you can at least check on pricescope for same criteria of your stone to see what price should be just to know...

If u don't wnt to know, then just be happy with decision. I used to buy then once bought regretted my decision after finding out more info. KNowledge is power, so after 3x, 4th time, I made sure I have no regrets. ONe can never be 100% sure, but it's nice to make sure you explore all options before spending major $.
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,471
----------------
On 10/21/2002 11:50:05 AM

Now there's an interesting one. Assuming a 1.2% girdle, the crown would very shallow (28.45 deg.), so it gets an AGS 9, and HCA score is 2.3. Yet GemAdviser scores are almost off the scale, with excellent marks for light return & leakage. I have a feeling that the GemAdviser scores might be wrong. Also the fisheye score looks fishy (pardon). Could anybody comment? Pls. check out the enclosed .gem file.

Maria, what color is the stone?

Regards,
Scotch
----------------

Scoth,

1) most likely, this stone has crown of 33° - 34.5° and correspondingly pavilion of 41.5°-42.1° ( Leakage mono -0.68( Good-Poor)

2) The stone 28.45/42 really has excellent marks for light return & leakage, but not very good contrast. Improving light return & leakage not always improves beauty. See:
http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/grading1/10.htm

3) RE:"(now that I think about it, that would explain the excellent GemAdviser scores, because the light is almost directly reflected back)But in the presence of a human head, the light would be blocked, and the stone would look dead."

Here you made as much as two mistakes. Fist, in this stone light is not almost directly reflected back. Second, the calculation of GemAdviser scores considers not only head of an observer but the body as well (and blockage of the mounting is also considered). You can make sure of this if you
a) make Raytracing of your model
b) set the pavilion angle of 45° in your model and calculate new LR.
 

scotch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Messages
94
Serg wrote:
-------------------
2) The stone 28.45/42 really has excellent marks for light return & leakage, but not very good contrast. Improving light return & leakage not always improves beauty. See:
http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/grading1/10.htm

Here you made as much as two mistakes. Fist, in this stone light is not almost directly reflected back. Second, the calculation of GemAdviser scores considers not only head of an observer but the body as well (and blockage of the mounting is also considered). You can make sure of this if you
a) make Raytracing of your model
b) set the pavilion angle of 45° in your model and calculate new LR.

----------------

Serg, thanks for those remarks. I didn't know if GemAdviser considered the head and body of the observer. But why do you think the stone has a 33-34.5 crown angle? That doesn't make sense to me. Can you post a gem file with your calculations? Or check out the one I posted above.

Scotch
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,471
----------------
On 10/22/2002 6:33:58 AM



Serg, thanks for those remarks. I didn't know if GemAdviser considered the head and body of the observer. But why do you think the stone has a 33-34.5 crown angle? That doesn't make sense to me. Can you post a gem file with your calculations? Or check out the one I posted above.

Scotch
----------------


See file
 

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Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,471
Usually on the base of only the GIA certificate one cannot give reliable estimation neither about the diamond beauty nor about the crown and pavilion angles.
However, sometimes one can suppose that the diamond is poor. But it's never possible to suppose that the diamond is good with high reliability.

Estimation of the diamond cut based only on the GIA certificate is like estimation of the racing characteristics of a car on the base of its weight and tire quality but with no consideration of the engine power, aerodynamics and brake quality.

P/s Diamcalc is intended for estimation of a PART of optical characteristics of round cut. This estimation is reliable if it's made on the base of the exact 3D model of a specific diamond. The parametric cut can be used as exact 3D model for the super-symmetrical diamonds under conditions of exactly measured main cut parameters.
 

scotch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Messages
94
Serg,

the mistake you made is in the girdle. You assumed a 0.1% girdle (0.00mm) measured at valleys. Thus, the stone would have almost no girdle at the valleys, and 1.8% at the bezel facets. If the stone has a thin to medium girdle as graded by GIA, it should most likely have a 1.0- 1.4 % girdle, measured at valleys.

Scotch
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,471
----------------
On 10/22/2002 7:07:49 AM

Serg,

the mistake you made is in the girdle. You assumed a 0.1% girdle (0.00mm) measured at valleys. Thus, the stone would have almost no girdle at the valleys, and 1.8% at the bezel facets. If the stone has a thin to medium girdle as graded by GIA, it should most likely have a 1.0- 1.4 % girdle, measured at valleys.

Scotch
----------------

Can you give me source of this information?
What % in bezel has extremely thin girdle?
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,471
Scotch,
http://www.gemology.ru/octonus/english/diamcalc/appr_price_gia.htm
Here you can find our table of girdle thickness. It is our interpretation of Marty Haske data.
 

scotch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Messages
94
Sorry Serg,

this is only circumstantial evidence. It is based on a couple of stones in that size range (2.0 - 2.5 ct) that are graded GIA thin, medium, or thin to medium, and comparison with Sarin reports on the same stones. By the way, DiamCalc doesn't seem to set the proper girdle width if you set girdle to "Appraiser" and select the verbal description of girdle thickness(e.g. "Thin" or "Medium"). I believe you have to enter the width manually as % or mm.

Have to be off to my daytime job now, will check back later.

Regards,
take care
Scotch:))
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,471
----------------
On 10/22/2002 7:34:33 AM

Sorry Serg,

this is only circumstantial evidence. It is based on a couple of stones in that size range (2.0 - 2.5 ct) that are graded GIA thin, medium, or thin to medium, and comparison with Sarin reports on the same stones. By the way, DiamCalc doesn't seem to set the proper girdle width if you set girdle to "Appraiser" and select the verbal description of girdle thickness(e.g. "Thin" or "Medium"). I believe you have to enter the width manually as % or mm.

Have to be off to my daytime job now, will check back later.

Regards,
take care
Scotch:))
----------------


Scotch,

We are agree that the girdle thickness should be entered preferable as numbers (% or mm when the numbers form the Sarin report are available). The problem is that GIA does not include the numbers in the certificates, just only verbal description. A couple of years ago we faced the problem of correspondence between verbal description and the numbers and we tried to find somewhere the table or description of this correspondence. We applied to GIA but our request was unfortunately ignored. The most serious information on this subject we could find was the Martin Haske's site.
http://www.gis.net/~adamas/cut.html#girdle
We have been using this information up to the present. The general conclusion of this research is that the description is constant when the girdle thickness is measured in mm. As being measured as % it depends on the diamond size and cannot be used.
These data adjusted with GIA's textbooks. Diamond Grading Assignment 8 p. 22, 23,25( The GIA girdle thickness is measured at Bezel); Diamond Grading Assignment 18 Girdle Thickness Percentage Chart
If you know more noteworthy information about this subject we will appreciate for it. I don't know how the things taught by the GIA corresponds to how they estimate diamonds.

And speaking about the Sarin report: they use different measurements in different parts of report: they print bezel measurements in the "report" and they print valley measurements at the chart.
 

scotch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Messages
94
Serg,

thank you for your comments. It was actually a question about girdle measurements which got me to join this forum in the first place. I was advised of Marty Haske's website before, but for some reason I got to check it out only today. I believe his findings are certainly accurate, at least in the range of diamond sizes for which he established the relationships between the descriptive GIA ranges and his mm ranges. However, this range ends at around 8mm in diameter, which corresponds to a diamond weight of somewhere around 1.9 ct.

Now his ranges (e.g. Medium: 0.15mm to 0.20mm) obviously refer to girdle size measured at the bezel. As he determined, girdle width at the valleys (gv) and bezels (gb) are linked by the following relationship: gb = gv plus 0.017*D (D diameter). As the sum on the right contains a percentage of D, the mm ranges can't be correct anymore if D grows larger. For a stone of 10mm diameter, if gb = 0.17mm, DiamCalc would determine it to be medium GIA width, yet gv would be zero, which obviously doesn't make sense. Already beyond 2ct diamond weight though the mm ranges are pretty much useless.

I'm sure you already know all that, and unfortunately I don't have a better idea either. If I find anything I'll gladly let you know, but I'm not in the trade and so I don't think there's much chance I'll figure it out.

Yours,
Scotch
 
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