Really confused and need opinion on diamond and Idealscope

[koolio2017]

Hi everyone,

I recently purchased a diamond from BN...sight unseen...because it has really good proportions and has everything else that I wanted. Of course, BN doesn't provide ID or ASET. I bought an Idealscope and tried to do the images myself but they do not look anywhere near the ones I see on whiteflash or from vendors.

STATS:
GIA
2.14
E
61.1 depth
56 table
34.5 CA
40.8 PA
LFG: 80%
Table is inclusion free...

I'm having alot of problems trying to align the diamond for a good picture. The arrows show up silver and not dark black like vendor images. Also, the diamond is mounted because I did not want to take the risk of not having the seller mount it.

I am worried about the optical symmetry...or lack thereof...it seems there's some dark contrast between the arrows in the 3rd picture of the diamond. You can see the dark obstruction between the two arrows at 12:00. I think this dark spot is also evident in the Idealscope if i'm not mistaken. Should I be worried about this? The Idealscope is so tilt sensitive that I'm not even sure how to interpret it...then you try to put a point and shoot camera on top and it's just really tricky.

What is everyone's opinion of this stone? Are there leakage in the images? It's a big purchase for me and I want to get it right. I was thinking of ponying up the money for Whiteflash ACA but a little hesistant if it's worth it...I would have go to down in clarity or color.

Thanks!

 

[koolio2017]

I forgot to mention that it's GIA triple EX

Thanks everyone

 

[flyingpig]

Welcome to the world of diamond photography. It is just PITA. The more you play with your camera and stone, the more you learn about your stone.

First, the diamond does not have noticeable leakage.
Second, the arrows look silvery because the back light is too bright or your camera lense and body is actually reflecting the back light or both. Remember the lense is glass and the camera may have glossy finish to it. I often cover the camera body and a portion of the lense with non reflective black paper.
Third, I see the black contrast and obscuration you talk about. It appears it is persistant in all images and worsens when tilted to the opposite direction (3rd photo)
Does the obscuration issue persist under a normal viewing condition with increased viewing diatance?

I think it is a beautiful diamond regardless.
If the obscuration issue bothers you, you should return. But, try to take a real good image and view the stone under different conditions and viewing distances before making a decision. These photos are not well taken.

 

[Karl_K]

If there are no inclusions under the table its looks to me like there may be a glob of gunk on the pavilion of the diamond.
Check and have it steam cleaned and see if the issue goes away.

 

[koolio2017]

Welcome to the world of diamond photography. It is just PITA. The more you play with your camera and stone, the more you learn about your stone.

First, the diamond does not have noticeable leakage.
Second, the arrows look silvery because the back light is too bright or your camera lense and body is actually reflecting the back light or both. Remember the lense is glass and the camera may have glossy finish to it. I often cover the camera body and a portion of the lense with non reflective black paper.
Third, I see the black contrast and obscuration you talk about. It appears it is persistant in all images and worsens when tilted to the opposite direction (3rd photo)
Does the obscuration issue persist under a normal viewing condition with increased viewing diatance?

I think it is a beautiful diamond regardless.
If the obscuration issue bothers you, you should return. But, try to take a real good image and view the stone under different conditions and viewing distances before making a decision. These photos are not well taken.

The obscuration is only visible when I am trying to take photographs of the arrows...without the tube of paper over the diamond...the arrows are silverish and the obscuration is silver or mirror-like. I read somewhere on these forums that this may be an optical asymmetry from the pavilion facets in that specific area being cut outside the average range of the rest of the stone.

I will definitely take more photos of the stone. I have my ASET scope coming tomorrow and will try to see if the ASET will provide any more information before I make the decision.

Thanks again for your feedback.

 

[koolio2017]

If there are no inclusions under the table its looks to me like there may be a glob of gunk on the pavilion of the diamond.
Check and have it steam cleaned and see if the issue goes away.

My fiance has the ring now but I will definitely check for this tomorrow when she comes over. I'll also have my ASET scope then too just to see if it can provide me more information. I first thought it was the prongs from the setting underneath somehow reflecting through as a dark obstruction...but it seems to only occur on that one side of the stone...so I'm thinking this is not it.

Another thread....one user says this could be caused by the pavilion facets in that area being cut outside the average range of the rest of the stone.

 

[flyingpig]

Another thread....one user says this could be caused by the pavilion facets in that area being cut outside the average range of the rest of the stone.

I am not sure if it is exactly the pavilion facets causing the issue. But it is not a gunk or photography issue, obviously there is something going on in that area. The triangular contrast pattern between the arrow head in the area is also somewhat different.
Does it behave something like this?
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2110536

 

[koolio2017]

I am not sure if it is exactly the pavilion facets causing the issue. But it is not a gunk or photography issue, obviously there is something going on in that area. The triangular contrast pattern between the arrow head in the area is also somewhat different.
Does it behave something like this?
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2110536

Yes! I think it looks exactly like that. What do you think is the cause for this and is it a concern?

 

[gm89uk]

It looks, like flyingpig is alluding to, problems with optical symmetry.

To me the half pavilion mains are slightly off there, which is probably contributing some minor leakage in that area. The main concern I believe you're having is the asymmetrical contrast pattern from the obstructive effect it is causing. It would be probably be more evident in a hearts and arrows view of the diamond.

In my opinion, it is a small proportion of the overall face up appearance of the diamond, and light return appears to be great. If you are only spotting it with a camera and scope, and you're otherwise thrilled with the diamond, I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[flyingpig]

Yes! I think it looks exactly like that. What do you think is the cause for this and is it a concern?

I am just another consumer. Although I can guess, I don't want to give out potentially false information.

But what is obvious is there may be enough deviations in angles and facet alignment that cause the asymmetrical contrast pattern, despite the stone scores ex in symmetry.

It is just a matter of how visible and persistent the obscuration is under a normal viewing condition to you and the wearer herself.
Like I and gm89uk said, the diamond is great with strong light return and beautiful overall appearance. Having that said, you have done alot of research and know how to assess diamonds under different conditions. Can't really say if the stone is good enough for you. Based on your comment, the obscuration is still somewhat visible but faint under a normal viewing condition.

The obscuration is only visible when I am trying to take photographs of the arrows...without the tube of paper over the diamond...the arrows are silverish and the obscuration is silver or mirror-like.

I would like to see the ASET image when you get the scope

 

[koolio2017]

I am just another consumer. Although I can guess, I don't want to give out potentially false information.

But what is obvious is there may be enough deviations in angles and facet alignment that cause the asymmetrical contrast pattern, despite the stone scores ex in symmetry.

It is just a matter of how visible and persistent the obscuration is under a normal viewing condition to you and the wearer herself.
Like I and gm89uk said, the diamond is great with strong light return and beautiful overall appearance. Having that said, you have done alot of research and know how to assess diamonds under different conditions. Can't really say if the stone is good enough for you. Based on your comment, the obscuration is still somewhat visible but faint under a normal viewing condition.


I would like to see the ASET image when you get the scope

Yea and thank you for all you input. Honestly, I love everything else about this stone...very high grade...pure white...and sparkles like a fireball although I don't have another diamond next to it to completely compare.
What is your opinion the ASET images below. These are the best images I could take with my camera phone..greens show up a little lighter...but arrows are more defined.

 

[flyingpig]

Still not the best well taken photos, but I know it is not easy. I think the scope is too close to the stone and the stone is but tilted.

No leakage. Some painting (I think), but no digging. Edge to edge brightness.

A regular photo without any cone or scope would be helpful. But I think I would keep the stone.
It is possible to find a stone with better symmetry. But we are talking E+, 2.14c+ (maybe high clarity as well?) from virtual inventory. It may not be easy.

 

[koolio2017]

Still not the best well taken photos, but I know it is not easy. I think the scope is too close to the stone and the stone is but tilted.

No leakage. Some painting (I think), but no digging. Edge to edge brightness.

A regular photo without any cone or scope would be helpful. But I think I would keep the stone.
It is possible to find a better cut stone. But we are talking E+, 2.14c+ (maybe high clarity as well?) from virtual inventory. It may not be easy.

Yea I hear you. I apologize..it's just so tricky...especially with the camera phone. When i hold the scope farther out...it's not as focused or sharp....but I see less of those random contrast patterns...definitely see more symmetry but not bold like when I hold the scope closer.

It's a VS1. I am thinking of getting an ACA from whiteflash because of their excellent upgrade policy...really debating that. It's not easy to find a 2.14, VS1, E color with these proportions and a clean table...the inclusions are all along the girdle. I have a tough decision ahead...the only thing on WF ACA website that is within my budget is a 2.13 G VS1 ACA or 2.01 F VS2....both are dramatic drops in stats for a super ideal cut.

Is the ACA cut really worth it?

Thanks again for all your input.

 

[bmfang]

The photos aren't too shabby in my books for camera phone shots. The stone looks good.

ACAs are definitely worth it. Their cut quality will definitely help out with light return to you, the viewer. It does sound like you might be a little sensitive to colour though based on you saying that a G colour is a major drop down from an E.

 

[koolio2017]

The photos aren't too shabby in my books for camera phone shots. The stone looks good.

ACAs are definitely worth it. Their cut quality will definitely help out with light return to you, the viewer. It does sound like you might be a little sensitive to colour though based on you saying that a G colour is a major drop down from an E.

Thanks for your input...would you go from 2.14 E VS1 to 2.12 G VS1 ACA? Just want your opinion.

Also, what you do think of the optical asymmetry...the dark obscuration...in the stone that I currently have in the original photos?


Thanks again!

 

[bmfang]

I'm not that colour sensitive, so a drop down from E to G wouldn't bug me. If it meant that I went from ideal to super-ideal cut and optics, then I would pull the trigger. But that is me. Ultimately, it's you who has to be happy with the stone relative to budget and specs.

I don't see that much leakage based on the IS and ASET images you posted above. But that dark spot in the original third image bugs me (which is why wouldn't purchase a stone from BN that didn't have a video attached to the listing). Have you cleaned the entire ring before you took the shots as KarlK suggested? It might be an asymmetry issue on a couple of the pavilion and lower girdle facets. Hard to make a definitive call in my books unless the stone is examined unmounted (which is how WF, BGD, etc take their IS & ASET images).

 

[Dancing Fire]

IMO, this is a nice stone just not a H&A stone.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Thanks for your input...would you go from 2.14 E VS1 to 2.12 G VS1 ACA? Just want your opinion.

Also, what you do think of the optical asymmetry...the dark obscuration...in the stone that I currently have in the original photos?
Thanks again!

I wouldn't mind owning a G VS1 stone... what is the price difference b/t the two?

 

[doberman]

Is this a BN Signature diamond? Posters here don't like BN, but I do like their signature stones and have one myself. I'm not going to get into whether it's a H&A, I'll leave that to others. To the naked eye these differences are often indiscernible. It looks good to me, and there is something about a colorless stone that is special. In an ideal world you could get the ACA and compare the two. See which one your eyes like better.

 

[flyingpig]

You purchased a stone from BN virtual inventory. It is a top performing GIA XXX for sure. No it is not a true H&A, and I am sure you did not expect it to be. I think you did well. If you try to get a super ideal 2.1c E VS2/1, it is 43k to 50k range. Not cheap.

Is two downgrades in color for a better cut worth it?? touch call.

Since you mentioned upgrade policy, if you are planning to return and start fresh, also consider good old gold, especially if you are interested in upgrading to fancy cuts and vintage cuts in the future and want to have more options open.

 

[koolio2017]

I wouldn't mind owning a G VS1 stone... what is the price difference b/t the two?

The Whiteflash ACA 2.12 G VS1 is same price as the current stone I have right now...GIA triple EX...2.14 E VS1. Basically, if i'm going for ACA...I am dropping from E to G.

 

[koolio2017]

You purchased a stone from BN virtual inventory. It is a top performing GIA XXX for sure. No it is not a true H&A, and I am sure you did not expect it to be. I think you did well. If you try to get a super ideal 2.1c E VS2/1, it is 43k to 50k range. Not cheap.

Is two downgrades in color for a better cut worth it?? touch call.

Since you mentioned upgrade policy, if you are planning to return and start fresh, also consider good old gold, especially if you are interested in upgrading to fancy cuts and vintage cuts in the future and want to have more options open.

Yea definitely....looking at upgrade policies now too. Whiteflash seems to offer very lenient and generous policy. I am leary of BN's policy...that's why I'm so anal with this current stone....I want to be 100% happy with the stone because there's no way I can afford 2x for an upgrade later on. It's a tough call right now.

 

[koolio2017]

Is this a BN Signature diamond? Posters here don't like BN, but I do like their signature stones and have one myself. I'm not going to get into whether it's a H&A, I'll leave that to others. To the naked eye these differences are often indiscernible. It looks good to me, and there is something about a colorless stone that is special. In an ideal world you could get the ACA and compare the two. See which one your eyes like better.

This is their regular virtual inventory not the Signature line. I do want to compare the two but obviously I do not have the budget to buy both at once....lol...sigh.

 

[Dancing Fire]

The Whiteflash ACA 2.12 G VS1 is same price as the current stone I have right now...GIA triple EX...2.14 E VS1. Basically, if i'm going for ACA...I am dropping from E to G.

So basically your choice is going down two color grades but getting a H&A stone + a better upgrade policy for the same price?

 

[koolio2017]

So basically your choice is going down two color grades but getting a H&A stone + a better upgrade policy for the same price?

Yea. I am leaning towards Whiteflash because of the upgrade policy...I can buy the G VS1 now and upgrade color later when and if it becomes available. I think E is over the top...the stone I bought just happened to be an E.

 

[hifihua428]

In my opinion, the one you got now is very very well cut. I wouldn't get ACA for 2 grades lower. I bet you won't be able to tell the difference in light return when these two are put next to each other. Instead, you will see a slight hint of yellow hue of the G ACA in some particular lighting conditions and angles. I vote for E over G for the same price. Reason being E is already well cut. my 0.02c.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Yea. I am leaning towards Whiteflash because of the upgrade policy...I can buy the G VS1 now and upgrade color later when and if it becomes available. I think E is over the top...the stone I bought just happened to be an E.

Yea, If you are planning on upgrading in the future then your best bet would be buying from WF, GOG, CBI or BGD.

 

[koolio2017]

In my opinion, the one you got now is very very well cut. I wouldn't get ACA for 2 grades lower. I bet you won't be able to tell the difference in light return when these two are put next to each other. Instead, you will see a slight hint of yellow hue of the G ACA in some particular lighting conditions and angles. I vote for E over G for the same price. Reason being E is already well cut. my 0.02c.

Hence why I'm struggling over this so much. I dont want to return it...get the ACA...and really be disappointed that it's really no better than the current stone....lol...sigh...will sleep on it for a few nights. I honestly don't think I can find another E/2.1+/VS1 with these proportions for this price for a while if I return it.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I am going to go out on a limb here to share something with you. I have hesitated to do this as I really don't want to color your decision but feel that I'd somehow be remiss if I didn't share this with you. The photo shows a comparison between the stone I had on the left and the WF ACA I traded for on the right. The stone on the left is a 2.22 and the stone on the right is a 2.19. I didn't have the benefit of this photo until WF took the picture. The stone on the left was an AGS0 stone (purchased from a brick and mortar store) and it was beautiful. As you can see, it was very well cut and always garnered lots of compliments. As the wearer and the one that stared it at all the time, I could always see a bit of darkness when the stone was tilted in certain situations. I second guessed what I was seeing all the time. Turn and it was there - turn again and it was gone. I guess now from seeing this photo that it was a misalignment or whatever of one or more of the facets. If I had tried to point it out to people, they would have said I was crazy. 99 out of 100 people could have lived with it forever and I did happily most of the time. However, I always thought there was probably better out there with nothing to really base it on. Long story short, I traded this stone for a WF ACA stone - you can see the new stone on the right. You can also see how well cut and balanced the ACA stone is and I see it in real time every day. We are all cut nuts here and always advise to buy the most well cut stone that you can and from my own personal experience, I appreciate this all the more.

The bottom line for you is this - if you can't see the spot in normal viewing circumstances, then you can probably let it go. If you can see it without magnification, you won't ever be able to unsee it. Only you can answer the question. If it is something that will steal the joy from owning the stone, then send it back. It is not worth the heartache. There are new stones arriving on the market every day so don't limit yourself to the E or the G (both of my stones were G and they are both very white by the way). I think it is when we box ourselves into the 'either or' spot we start to get a little crazy. Most importantly, don't settle for something that doesn't make you happy. Wait until something else comes along that ticks most of your most important boxes. I feel for you and appreciate the decision you are trying to make and I wish you all the best. In time, you will know in your heart whether or not you can live with the stone you have just purchased. The good news is you are not stuck with it if you decide it is not a keeper!

 

[koolio2017]

I am going to go out on a limb here to share something with you. I have hesitated to do this as I really don't want to color your decision but feel that I'd somehow be remiss if I didn't share this with you. The photo shows a comparison between the stone I had on the left and the WF ACA I traded for on the right. The stone on the left is a 2.22 and the stone on the right is a 2.19. I didn't have the benefit of this photo until WF took the picture. The stone on the left was an AGS0 stone (purchased from a brick and mortar store) and it was beautiful. As you can see, it was very well cut and always garnered lots of compliments. As the wearer and the one that stared it at all the time, I could always see a bit of darkness when the stone was tilted in certain situations. I second guessed what I was seeing all the time. Turn and it was there - turn again and it was gone. I guess now from seeing this photo that it was a misalignment or whatever of one or more of the facets. If I had tried to point it out to people, they would have said I was crazy. 99 out of 100 people could have lived with it forever and I did happily most of the time. However, I always thought there was probably better out there with nothing to really base it on. Long story short, I traded this stone for a WF ACA stone - you can see the new stone on the right. You can also see how well cut and balanced the ACA stone is and I see it in real time every day. We are all cut nuts here and always advise to buy the most well cut stone that you can and from my own personal experience, I appreciate this all the more.

The bottom line for you is this - if you can't see the spot in normal viewing circumstances, then you can probably let it go. If you can see it without magnification, you won't ever be able to unsee it. Only you can answer the question. If it is something that will steal the joy from owning the stone, then send it back. It is not worth the heartache. There are new stones arriving on the market every day so don't limit yourself to the E or the G (both of my stones were G and they are both very white by the way). I think it is when we box ourselves into the 'either or' spot we start to get a little crazy. Most importantly, don't settle for something that doesn't make you happy. Wait until something else comes along that ticks most of your most important boxes. I feel for you and appreciate the decision you are trying to make and I wish you all the best. In time, you will know in your heart whether or not you can live with the stone you have just purchased. The good news is you are not stuck with it if you decide it is not a keeper!

Thank you so much for sharing this. Your story highlights everything I am experiencing with this. Even when it's not visible in normal conditions...I know it's there. If I stare at it hard enough with the tilting...I can see bits of it. It's driving me insane. Everywhere I have read...people say CUT is above everything else. I am just trying to decipher how important that is relative to the other combined stats for a stone. I think I will return this stone and go with WF just based on their upgrade policy alone.