Real of Synthetic Sapphire

[CharmyPoo]

Oh no.. not one of these threads again! Ok - I know the drill .. we can't really tell if it is a synthetic or a natural stone by photos but I wanted to get your thougths anyways. It apparantly isn't glass according to the Presidium Gem Tester. The vendor swears it is natural sapphire although I am not so sure. Any thoughts?

ETA: Typo in title - should read OR instead OF.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Vendor pics of the blue one.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Vendor pics of the pink one.

 

[VapidLapid]

WOW the cutting is just dreadful, especially on the pink one. And especially on the blue one too. It feels weird though, like it was done by a native cutter who had seen some better cuts and was trying to emulate them, or like it was done by a "western" cutter trying to make it look like a native cut of an unfamiliar sophisticated cut.
Or it could be that the global culture is transitioning and the term "native cuts" (as I used it) wont denote the freehand cutting by highly exploited slightly educated children native to developing countries for much longer. If we choose that interpretation then we might propose that this could be an example of the transition taking place. Still then we would be left wondering if the stones that were cut are natural or synthetic.

 

[Pandora II]

I guess natural... colour isn''t good enough to be man-made...

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 5/23/2010 6:13:13 PM
Author: VapidLapid
WOW the cutting is just dreadful, especially on the pink one. And especially on the blue one too.

You got that right. The blue one is 3 cts and the pink one is over 4 cts. I was thinking if they are real (granted - not the best color but in real life not all that bad) .. I might consider having them re-cut.

 

[ma re]

Without lab equipment and expert knowledge I''d say your best bet in determining what these might be is the price being asked for the stones. Check out reputable vendors (preferably outside of Ebay) and find stones of comparable size, color, clarity etc. and see what they''re going for. If the vendor is asking like 10% of that price, they''re most probably not natural or they are highly treated naturals.

 

[chrono]

Without any tools, it’s hard to say. How true are the vendor’s pictures to life? Either his pictures are photoshopped or the stones have been BE diffused.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 5/24/2010 11:26:11 AM
Author: Chrono
Without any tools, it’s hard to say. How true are the vendor’s pictures to life? Either his pictures are photoshopped or the stones have been BE diffused.

My photos are pretty much true to life. Vendor photos are a bit exaggerated. They claim only gentle heating.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

The pink photo you took looks to me like a sapphire from Madagascar. I have some nearly the same color. This week I was thinking of sending it out to one of the lab services for a brief analysis on treatment and information on whether or not its natural. I understand the cost is $30.00. Since I have several from the same vendor, if I check one out, I will make the leap that they all have identical treatment.

I''ve had mine for about 5 yrs and most people think its BE treated but I''m tired of guessing. Maybe you may want to do the same.

Thanks,

Annette

 

[CharmyPoo]

Hi Annette - Please post your results if you do decide to send it out. I may too just to get the answer even though I don''t think the actual purchase is worth the extra $30.

 

[soberguy]

Outside of the stones appearing to be fingerprinted and dirty, I don''t see any other inclusions. I would guess that these are at least treated, and most probably synthetic.

 

[LD]

Two 3ct and 4ct natural sapphires without a cert both strongly coloured and fairly inclusion free? My gut feeling is that they're BE diffused at best. Sapphires? Not sure. What are they registering on the gem tester? Are they registering as Corrundum?

Smit - make sure you send it to a lab that can test specifically for BE diffusion. Not all labs can. For example, there isn't a lab in the UK that can run this test!

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 5/24/2010 3:23:42 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Two 4ct natural sapphires without a cert both strongly coloured and fairly inclusion free? My gut feeling is that they're BE diffused at best. Sapphires? Not sure. What are they registering on the gem tester? Are they registering as Corrundum?

Yeah .. showing up in the "Ruby, Sapphire" bar.

Claimed source is Africa.

 

[LD]

Date: 5/24/2010 3:25:59 PM
Author: CharmyPoo

Date: 5/24/2010 3:23:42 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Two 4ct natural sapphires without a cert both strongly coloured and fairly inclusion free? My gut feeling is that they''re BE diffused at best. Sapphires? Not sure. What are they registering on the gem tester? Are they registering as Corrundum?

Yeah .. showing up in the ''Ruby, Sapphire'' bar.

Mmmm. I have a synthetic that does this also. However it didn''t have the same RI. Have you got the equipment to do a quick RI test? If not, is there a jeweller near you who can? That''ll give you a much better idea.

If it has the same RI as corrundum then the chances are we''re back to thinking about diffusion.

 

[T L]

Date: 5/24/2010 12:04:35 PM
Author: CharmyPoo

My photos are pretty much true to life. Vendor photos are a bit exaggerated. They claim only gentle heating.

Never believe claims. Always get proof. I purchased a sapphire on ebay that I felt was really undervalued for the color/clarity/zoning quality. Although I didn't pay that much, that AIGS memo with the treatment disclosed sure did give me peace of mind.

Even if they had inclusions, it could still be suspect for diffusion. The lack of inclusions makes me suspect for a synthetic, especially in those colors. Any zoning?

 

[lelser]

Date: 5/24/2010 3:29:36 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 5/24/2010 3:25:59 PM

Author: CharmyPoo

Date: 5/24/2010 3:23:42 PM

Author: LovingDiamonds

Two 4ct natural sapphires without a cert both strongly coloured and fairly inclusion free? My gut feeling is that they''re BE diffused at best. Sapphires? Not sure. What are they registering on the gem tester? Are they registering as Corrundum?

Yeah .. showing up in the ''Ruby, Sapphire'' bar.

Mmmm. I have a synthetic that does this also. However it didn''t have the same RI. Have you got the equipment to do a quick RI test? If not, is there a jeweller near you who can? That''ll give you a much better idea.


If it has the same RI as corrundum then the chances are we''re back to thinking about diffusion.

Synthetic corundum IS corundum. It will always show the same RI as natural corundum and will have the same properties overall because it''s just a lab-created version of the material.

Magnification and practice are the best ways to tell them apart, but you''re best off using a lab.

 

[PrecisionGem]

What did you pay for the stones, that should help decide if they are real or not.

 

[T L]

Date: 5/24/2010 4:49:56 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
What did you pay for the stones, that should help decide if they are real or not.

Not always. You can overpay for synthetic gems, or you can underpay for natural ones. If you''re buying a Kashmir color for $10, then yes, it''s suspect, but most of the time, it''s speculative, even with the price.

 

[LD]

Date: 5/24/2010 4:23:28 PM
Author: lelser

Date: 5/24/2010 3:29:36 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 5/24/2010 3:25:59 PM

Author: CharmyPoo

Date: 5/24/2010 3:23:42 PM

Author: LovingDiamonds

Two 4ct natural sapphires without a cert both strongly coloured and fairly inclusion free? My gut feeling is that they''re BE diffused at best. Sapphires? Not sure. What are they registering on the gem tester? Are they registering as Corrundum?

Yeah .. showing up in the ''Ruby, Sapphire'' bar.

Mmmm. I have a synthetic that does this also. However it didn''t have the same RI. Have you got the equipment to do a quick RI test? If not, is there a jeweller near you who can? That''ll give you a much better idea.


If it has the same RI as corrundum then the chances are we''re back to thinking about diffusion.

Synthetic corundum IS corundum. It will always show the same RI as natural corundum and will have the same properties overall because it''s just a lab-created version of the material.

Magnification and practice are the best ways to tell them apart, but you''re best off using a lab.

An RI will at least get one step nearer. For example if it shows as a different RI from corundum then that gives a different answer. If it shows the same as corundum then it''s either a sapphire or a synthetic. I wasn''t suggesting this was synthetic corundum - just saying I had one and that it registered the same as a natural sapphire on a gem tester!

 

[T L]

Diffused corundum can also have the same RI as a sapphire that is all natural in color as well, and diffused stones are cheap and very devalued.

 

[partgypsy]

If they are 3 and 4 carat natural gemstones, it would be worth your while to get them identified. You know the whole saying, if it is too good to be true, it probably is.

 

[mastercutgems]

Lisa among others are correct. Corundum is corundum, synthetic, natural, Be heated/diffused, surface diffused, etc. It will all read in the correct range of the refractive index. They are making some extremely fine synthetics these days, dichroic, with natural type inclusions, etc. So Lisa is correct in saying the microscope and lots of reading and looking for inclusions representative of synthetics is about the only hope. Even my digital challenger spectrometer can only tell so much; it is great for checking Be heated/diffused corundum, irradiated diamonds, etc.; as if the element that causes a particular color is not present; there has to be a fox in the hen-house somewhere; but IF they put the correct elements in the mix when making the corundum; it will show up just like a natural of that particular color.

So if you can not find a natural inclusion, have not had it in your safe before 1900, or have a very reputable lab report it is any ones guess. But hardness, RI, SG, spectrometer reading, and microscope of 60 to 100X ; a very good GIA or similar lab manual are your best tools to define a natural from a synthetic.

I know I bought a sapphire off ebay a couple of years ago as a test gem; it was lovely, blue-green in color and 3.2 carats for 80.00 I knew it had to be a synthetic; when it came in it was lovely; kind of a off cut but OK; it took me over 2 hours under 100x to find some plato lines and one small curved color band. I was really beginning to wonder IF they sent me a real one; but it was not. It is now at my testing bench as a excellent sample of how good they have become at making great synthetic corundum. And I am sure the other gem minerals of greater value are next on their list.

Sorry about that gang; but the synthetic and altered/enhanced gems abound out there these days... In the rough and also cut; so do not be fooled that a rough gem is natural also as they fake crystal faces, etc. if there is money to be made off the deception it will be done by someone... Such a shame...

Most respectfully;

 

[T L]

Date: 5/25/2010 12:35:09 PM
Author: mastercutgems
Lisa among others are correct. Corundum is corundum, synthetic, natural, Be heated/diffused, surface diffused, etc. It will all read in the correct range of the refractive index. They are making some extremely fine synthetics these days, dichroic, with natural type inclusions, etc. So Lisa is correct in saying the microscope and lots of reading and looking for inclusions representative of synthetics is about the only hope. Even my digital challenger spectrometer can only tell so much; it is great for checking Be heated/diffused corundum, irradiated diamonds, etc.; as if the element that causes a particular color is not present; there has to be a fox in the hen-house somewhere; but IF they put the correct elements in the mix when making the corundum; it will show up just like a natural of that particular color.


So if you can not find a natural inclusion, have not had it in your safe before 1900, or have a very reputable lab report it is any ones guess. But hardness, RI, SG, spectrometer reading, and microscope of 60 to 100X ; a very good GIA or similar lab manual are your best tools to define a natural from a synthetic.


I know I bought a sapphire off ebay a couple of years ago as a test gem; it was lovely, blue-green in color and 3.2 carats for 80.00 I knew it had to be a synthetic; when it came in it was lovely; kind of a off cut but OK; it took me over 2 hours under 100x to find some plato lines and one small curved color band. I was really beginning to wonder IF they sent me a real one; but it was not. It is now at my testing bench as a excellent sample of how good they have become at making great synthetic corundum. And I am sure the other gem minerals of greater value are next on their list.


Sorry about that gang; but the synthetic and altered/enhanced gems abound out there these days... In the rough and also cut; so do not be fooled that a rough gem is natural also as they fake crystal faces, etc. if there is money to be made off the deception it will be done by someone... Such a shame...


Most respectfully;

Sad, but true. Great post Dana. This is why I'm always on my soapbox about lab reports, especially for sapphires, rubies, and emeralds.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Am I hearing this right .. even if I take it to an appraiser ... they might not be able to tell me?

I don''t have any decent appraisers in Toronto.

 

[Michael_E]

Got an old contact lens bottle and some baby oil ? Put some baby oil in the bottle and drop the blue stone in it face down. Blue flame fusion sapphire are always color zoned since the coloring agents migrate to the outside of the boule causing the rough to have a thin rind of color with a core having much less color. In order to keep the stone from looking colorless when it''s tipped, the stones are cut with that rind in the crown. With the stone is in the bottle, hold it up to a strong light with a piece of copy paper in between the bottle and the light, acting as a diffuser. This should let you see any color zoning or growth lines more easily. In the attached picture you can see the gradual reduction in color as you move from the table to the culet. While I suppose that a natural sapphire could look like this, I have never seen it, as they usually have distinct angular growth lines which the color zoning follows fairly closely. This little test only gives an indicator that the stone MAY be synthetic if it looks like this, whereas if the stone shows distinct angular lines, then it is definitely natural. As for diffusion, well that''s a whole different ball game and requires tools found only in a lab.

 

[T L]

Date: 5/25/2010 6:28:48 PM
Author: CharmyPoo
Am I hearing this right .. even if I take it to an appraiser ... they might not be able to tell me?


I don't have any decent appraisers in Toronto.

For some gems, I'm afraid I would only use a highly reputable lab with sophisticated equipment. While there are some very good gemologists, with great tools, most of them only know diamonds, and colored gems are just not their expertise.

Will the vendor send them to a lab at extra cost? If they shy away from that, be leary.

 

[chrono]

Date: 5/25/2010 8:11:24 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
For some gems, I''m afraid I would only use a highly reputable lab with sophisticated equipment. While there are some very good gemologists, with great tools, most of them only know diamonds, and colored gems are just not their expertise.

Will the vendor send them to a lab at extra cost? If they shy away from that, be leary.

I second that opinion.

 

[cleansocks]

Anyone know where one can buy reliably high quality synthetic sapphires and/or rubies online?

 

[chrono]

Unfortunately, we are not allowed to discuss synthetics in this forum per the forum policy.