Re my flux-healed Burmese ruby

[Arkteia]

It so happened that I had to cancel my forthcoming trip and my next week is free. Hence, I have some time to invest in this business. Just briefly, I bought a heated Ruby with GRS certificate from a VERY reputable jeweller during my trip abroad. It was over a year ago. When I sent it to GIA for recertification they mentioned "minimal amound of residue in fissures". Since I never heard about flux-healing and found out the difference in prices between healed and unhealed rubies only when I joined PS (thank you, PS-ers) I just let the matter lie. But since I have both certificates and purchased it on my credit card and definitely not from a street vendor, I just want to know if anything can be done about it. I think the first step should be locating GRS and talking to them. But I think they are in Bangkok. Is it safe to ship a ring there? And for how long do they keep their database? (The date on the certificate says 2004). The certificate itself appears absolutely real, I have seen many GRS certificates since that time, and have some, too.

 

[morecarats]

If you have an issue with the description of the gem as sold by the dealer, why not take up the issue with the dealer? As far as the GRS test report is concerned, you should be able to verify the report on their website.

 

[virgoruby]

I agree with morecarats - you should definitely contact the vendor & point out the discrepancies between the two certificates (ie GRS & GIA).
I hope the vendor will rectify the situation..
Wishing you the very best of luck!

 

[chrono]

I’d take it up with the dealer first as well as he is the one who sold it to you and sent it to GRS for certification.

 

[elmo]

I''m not sure from your description that there is a discrepancy between the two labs or what your seller represented. What exactly did your GRS report say about enhancement? Looks like GIA is saying it''s the equivalent of GRS H(a) and H(b). (GRS apparently updated their descriptions in 2004 so I''m not sure what to compare with then.) Furthermore I don''t think there''s a huge price difference between H and H(a) for same quality.

 

[LD]

Are you saying that the GRS certificate states no enhancement? OR is it silent on treatment?

If the GRS certificate states that the gem hasn''t been fracture filled then there are several possibilities (a) the Vendor has mis-sold the item or (b) the gemstone has been switched at some point or (c) the GRS certificate doesn''t relate to your stone and has been mixed up by the Vendor with a similar gemstone they had for sale (unlikely).

The difference in price between a fracture filled Ruby and one just heated or natural and unheated is enormous. Please see my recent post on this subject about my friend''s glass filled Ruby.

If the GRS certificate clearly states no enhancement then you most definitely must go back to the vendor.

 

[elmo]

Date: 1/15/2010 10:25:28 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Are you saying that the GRS certificate states no enhancement?

They say "I bought a heated Ruby with GRS certificate". I read that as GRS indicating enhancement. I''m concerned that folks here are jumping to conclusions with insufficient information more than I am concerned, at least at this point, that an error or misrepresentation was made with the stone.

 

[Arkteia]

OK, I pulled out both certificates. Ha-a!

Here is what GRS states: Date: Oct 2006 (sorry!). "One faceted gemstone. Natural ruby. Weight 2.19 ct. (Then dimensions, cut,). The photograph is that of my ruby - it has a very specific cut. There is GRS stamp. Comment: H(a), no surface cavity fillings. Origin: Gemollogical testing revealed characteristics corresponding to those of natural ruby from: Burma. Signature, another stamp. (I do not think it is forged).

Here is GIA: basically same measurements and cut, it is set so some things are very slightly different (very slightly, we are talking about 0.02 mm difference). Species: natural corundum, variety: ruby, Source type: CMT Type III, Geographic origin: Burma (Myanmar).

Treatment: Indications of heating with minor residues in fissures (TE1/TE2).

As I have noticed, GRS states "no indications of SURFACE cavity filling". Does it imply that there may be DEEP cavity filling? Why should they not mention it then? Can they not see it in a 2-ct ruby? Or does it mean what I think it means: that it is not flux-healed?

Also, because I am such a rookie: does H(a) equal TE1/TE2?

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/15/2010 10:25:28 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Are you saying that the GRS certificate states no enhancement? OR is it silent on treatment?

If the GRS certificate states that the gem hasn't been fracture filled then there are several possibilities (a) the Vendor has mis-sold the item or (b) the gemstone has been switched at some point or (c) the GRS certificate doesn't relate to your stone and has been mixed up by the Vendor with a similar gemstone they had for sale (unlikely).

The difference in price between a fracture filled Ruby and one just heated or natural and unheated is enormous. Please see my recent post on this subject about my friend's glass filled Ruby.

If the GRS certificate clearly states no enhancement then you most definitely must go back to the vendor.

LD, I saw your post. That is what started this whole business in my head. Otherwise I would have been quite happy wearing the ruby ring on my right hand.
Please see my description of both certificates. What do you think?

 

[LD]

The two certificates are saying the same thing.

On the GRS certificate the H(a) means - very minor fissure healing (with or without borax). See here:

http://www.gemresearch.ch/treatment.htm

Yes, it is the equivalent of the GIA TE1/TE2

 

[Arkteia]

And also, to explain the whole situation: I bought it with GRS certificate only. I sent it to GIA for a totally different reason: because a local appraiser thought it was Thai. At that moment I contacted the jeweller and got an answer that they fully stood behind their products.

So THEY sold me the ruby with GRS certificate only stating H{a) no surface cavity fillings. That is what I bought it for. That is why I am asking if H(a) equals TE1-TE2 (I probably could look it up in Wikipedia but I know PS-ers are way better than Wikipedia, gem-wise). And that is why I have to start with the GRS and ask how they could explain the difference.

Sorry, I thought it was certified in 2006 and it was bought in 2008. I went to that jeweller because I saw photographs of their spessartine sets in VOGUE. I was after spessartines.

 

[LD]

Crasru - please read my post above. That answers your question.

 

[chrono]

Date: 1/15/2010 11:39:34 AM
Author: crasru
OK, I pulled out both certificates. Ha-a!

Here is what GRS states: Date: Oct 2006 (sorry!). ''One faceted gemstone. Natural ruby. Weight 2.19 ct. (Then dimensions, cut,). The photograph is that of my ruby - it has a very specific cut. There is GRS stamp. Comment: H(a), no surface cavity fillings. Origin: Gemollogical testing revealed characteristics corresponding to those of natural ruby from: Burma. Signature, another stamp. (I do not think it is forged).

Here is GIA: basically same measurements and cut, it is set so some things are very slightly different (very slightly, we are talking about 0.02 mm difference). Species: natural corundum, variety: ruby, Source type: CMT Type III, Geographic origin: Burma (Myanmar).

Treatment: Indications of heating with minor residues in fissures (TE1/TE2).

As I have noticed, GRS states ''no indications of SURFACE cavity filling''. Does it imply that there may be DEEP cavity filling? Why should they not mention it then? Can they not see it in a 2-ct ruby? Or does it mean what I think it means: that it is not flux-healed?

Also, because I am such a rookie: does H(a) equal TE1/TE2?

Crasru,
This thread might be of interest to you. You left out a very important piece of information from the GRS cert when you gave us information about it until now. H(a) means that GRS did detect an incredibly tiny residue of flux treatment in your ruby. TE1 through TE5 is GIA’s way of designating the level of flux healing. TE1 is minor residue so yes, H(a) = TE1. It looks like there is no discrepancy between your GRS and GIA lab report, I’m afraid. So there is no worry about lead glass filling, only flux healed which is a lesser level of treatment.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/question-on-level-of-ruby-treatment.133320/

Haha, LD beat me to it.

 

[chrono]

Date: 1/15/2010 11:51:17 AM
Author: crasru
And also, to explain the whole situation: I bought it with GRS certificate only. I sent it to GIA for a totally different reason: because a local appraiser thought it was Thai. At that moment I contacted the jeweller and got an answer that they fully stood behind their products.

So THEY sold me the ruby with GRS certificate only stating H{a) no surface cavity fillings. That is what I bought it for. That is why I am asking if H(a) equals TE1-TE2 (I probably could look it up in Wikipedia but I know PS-ers are way better than Wikipedia, gem-wise). And that is why I have to start with the GRS and ask how they could explain the difference.

Sorry, I thought it was certified in 2006 and it was bought in 2008. I went to that jeweller because I saw photographs of their spessartine sets in VOGUE. I was after spessartines.

Your appraiser could be correct; many Thai rubies have been flux healed, which could be a tip off. Then again, a lot of Burmese rubies from Mong Hsu are routinely flux healed as well.

 

[Arkteia]

Then why do they say "no surface cavity fillings". Does having surface cavity fillings make it total ...human waste product?

It was signed by Mr. Perretti. And say, if it is a 2.19 red ruby from Myanmar, H(a) treatment, no surface cavity fillings, set in yellow/white gold, withtwelve near colorless round diamonds, how much could it cost? It has a fine color and very strong fluorescence (you should see it in Disneyworld!).

Approximately? I know you are not an appraiser, but if you are buying it from a jeweller, and it is not a bargain price, how much would I expect to pay?
(I am not going to faint if you say, one UK pound, I have been living with this ruby for over a year).

 

[chrono]

Date: 1/15/2010 11:59:31 AM
Author: crasru
Then why do they say ''no surface cavity fillings''. Does having surface cavity fillings make it total ...human waste product?

It was signed by Mr. Perretti. And say, if it is a 2.19 red ruby from Myanmar, H(a) treatment, no surface cavity fillings, set in yellow/white gold, withtwelve near colorless round diamonds, how much could it cost? It has a fine color and very strong fluorescence (you should see it in Disneyworld!).

Approximately? I know you are not an appraiser, but if you are buying it from a jeweller, and it is not a bargain price, how much would I expect to pay?
(I am not going to faint if you say, one UK pound, I have been living with this ruby for over a year).

Because it has not been filled at all. It was heated to temperatures high enough for the cavities to melt and “heal” shut somewhat. I’d would not call it a simple/plain/regular heat treatment though because it isn’t.

 

[LD]

Crasru - a Ruby that has had any type of healing is going to cost less than a natural Ruby or a natural heated Ruby. It's impossible to put a price to it because it depends on cut, clarity, colour etc.

If you revisit the post about my friend's Ruby you'll see that the difference in price was astronomical but also virtually impossible to determine.

You have bought the Ruby with a certificate that states H(a). The GIA certificate confirms exactly the same treatment and level. Therefore you probably don't have any comeback. Should the Vendor have explained what H(a) meant? Yes a good Vendor would. Do you have any comeback because he didn't? No.

 

[Arkteia]

Absolutely. Except for leaving negative feedback on websites that tourists would frequently visit. Is it worthy of it? Unclear, it is definitely not an issue of liability. Nor is it slander if I state the quality/the price.

Again, it was not a place where I expected it to happen. They told me that it was "just heated" and then I said, "well, I expect most of rubies are heated", and they said, "yes".

The country was Australia. I is unlikely that I shall ever go there again. Thanks, LD. I guess it would be $ 3000 at most. I over-overpaid. Is the experience worthy of it? It costs a lot. I wish I knew PS-ers before. I shall never spend a lot of money without consulting PS-ers again.

I mean, the whole ring is not than $ 3000 because the setting is really expensive. I am trying to figure out the cost of the ruby. Just for my own pleasure...

 

[virgoruby]

You may not have legal recourse, but you could always contact the seller (if you haven''t done so yet) to see what they have to say about the whole situation? Who knows they might even come up with an amicable solution.. It''s a long shot, but you have very little to lose..

(please note that I''m not trying to stir things up...)

 

[LD]

Date: 1/15/2010 12:16:43 PM
Author: crasru
Absolutely. Except for leaving negative feedback on websites that tourists would frequently visit. Is it worthy of it? Unclear, it is definitely not an issue of liability. Nor is it slander if I state the quality/the price.

Again, it was not a place where I expected it to happen. They told me that it was ''just heated'' and then I said, ''well, I expect most of rubies are heated'', and they said, ''yes''.

The country was Australia. I is unlikely that I shall ever go there again. Thanks, LD. I guess it would be $ 3000 at most. I over-overpaid. Is the experience worthy of it? It costs a lot. I wish I knew PS-ers before. I shall never spend a lot of money without consulting PS-ers again.

I mean, the whole ring is not than $ 3000 because the setting is really expensive. I am trying to figure out the cost of the ruby. Just for my own pleasure...

The only way of getting an indication of worth is to try to find something similar for sale. That won''t be easy. When I was looking for my friend I found Rubies of all sizes, clarities, colours and different types of treatment and the prices varied considerably. Ask yourself, how much would you have to pay for a heated Ruby of the same size (finding prices for those may be easier). Then if you''ve paid something close to that, you know that''s going to be too much. I have no idea how much to even suggest but I would probably say that I (on no basis other than a gut feeling) would say it should be worth about 20% of the heated only Ruby. I could be way off base but that might give you a starting point. Hopefully others can chime in with how they would go about finding a value.

Of course, you could always send it to one of the PS valuers without mentioning how much you paid but showing them the two certificates.

 

[colormyworld]

Very minor flux residue has pretty much been accepted by the trade. As such I doubt the minor flux residue will effect the price very much over a ruby of similar qualiity with just heat treatment. If I am wrong I am sure someone will correct me on this.

 

[y2kitty]

wrong topic. ignore.

 

[chrono]

Since the amount of residue is minor, I suspect your ruby started out with very few cracks and required very little healing, which is why I don’t understand why the stone wasn’t just heated rather than flux healed.

 

[empress]

Well, rubies "just heated" from a well respected vendor you are all familiar with are priced from $2000 - $3000 per carat for stones less than a carat.

There is a huge bump in price at 2 carats.

Seems to me if the stone is over 2 carats and in an expensive setting - $3000 is not out of line for a retail price for flux healed. Especially when bought in a BM store.

IMHO.

 

[Arkteia]

No Empress that is not what I paid. This is my realistic estimate of what I probably should have paid. Retail a ring with not-so-small near-colorless diamonds and a ruby would cost much more. And I shall not get unhappy if I find out that what I really paid is out of line. I like my ruby and it seems to be quite a "lucky" stone (I believe in "lucky" and "unlucky" stones, please do not laugh at me but I just have this feeling...). So I am OK even if I overpaid because I am wearing it all the time and it means that it pays off! I am just trying to use this experience to educate myself so that in the future I am more reasonable in my spending.

 

[PinkTower]

My ruby had the GRS certificate when I purchased the loose stone.

However, I sent the ruby to Mr. Richard Sherwood for an appraisal soon after purchase.

There was no issue with my GRS certificate, and if I am reading your post correctly, your certificate is also accurate.
Have you gone to the SwissLab website? There is a lot of information there on how to read the certificates.

However, an appraisal is going to be necessary in addition to the certificate in order to answer sall of your questions, especially those about the specific value of your stone.

I would highly recommend Mr. Sherwood, as he is an expert in the field, and he loves rubies.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 1/15/2010 3:19:03 PM
Author: Chrono
Since the amount of residue is minor, I suspect your ruby started out with very few cracks and required very little healing, which is why I don’t understand why the stone wasn’t just heated rather than flux healed.

If a ruby has fissures, it is actually better to heat it with a flux and heal the fractures than simply heat it and leave the cracks. The treatment will both improve the appearance of the stone and result in a more robust gem.

Having said that, there is a significant price difference between heated and flux-heated rubies. But it is nowhere near the price difference between heated ruby and ruby fracture-filled with lead glass. It is unfortunate that many flux-heated rubies are sold as simply heated. It is not an ethical practice, and it is the reason why the gem labs explicitly identify the treatment and the degree of residue in the gem.

I have had to deal with similar cases in the past, and I always explain the test report to the customer BEFORE shipping the gem. Most customers will read the documentation on the test report (or from the lab''s website), but one can''t assume they will. So the onus is on the dealer to make sure the customer knows what he or she is buying. It is not only ethical to do that, but it''s in the dealer''s self-interest. No dealer wants to have this issue come up after the customer takes delivery of the stone.

 

[Lovinggems]

Here's a link to GRS website on treatment definition:
http://www.gemresearch.ch/treatment.htm

You should also check out Richard Wise's website.

I don't know how much you paid for your ruby ring, but it's really beautiful.

 

[OMARMARIOLUIS]

Dear Friend,

I would first like to congratulate the new year and that their health is their main source of wealth.

Secondly ask your pardon for my bad English writing.

I find it curious that anyone would actually tell you with sincerity and knowledge.

I think you worry too much about the little money he paid for his stone. in the money no one would wish to deceive you if you want a reference price that will advance your stone can be worth slightly more than $ 20 if the cracks are healed. but more importantly is that his election by color, shape has been satisfactory at the time immediately after leaving aside the possible or not possible because aumque well outside investment with the money invested could not reach great benefit.

Honestly, I buy stones for many many years and certainly when spending real money and of course never buy from a vendor.
If you buy a stone in its origin and value addition the price of the trip and a week''s stay in comfort I guarantee that you will have made an investment buenisima although the hotel is very expensive. But every walk of mine and / or production. I encourage and prepare a good trip with illusion and find the stone that you fall in love at first sight with a swing of his gaze and arrows.

http://www.africagems.com/burmaruby200.html

BURMA - 2CT - HEAT - GRS - Price: $12,700.00

Thank you so much and have a nice day.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/17/2010 7:47:38 AM
Author: OMARMARIOLUIS

Dear Friend,

I would first like to congratulate the new year and that their health is their main source of wealth.

Secondly ask your pardon for my bad English writing.

I find it curious that anyone would actually tell you with sincerity and knowledge.

I think you worry too much about the little money he paid for his stone. in the money no one would wish to deceive you if you want a reference price that will advance your stone can be worth slightly more than $ 20 if the cracks are healed. but more importantly is that his election by color, shape has been satisfactory at the time immediately after leaving aside the possible or not possible because aumque well outside investment with the money invested could not reach great benefit.

Honestly, I buy stones for many many years and certainly when spending real money and of course never buy from a vendor.

If you buy a stone in its origin and value addition the price of the trip and a week''s stay in comfort I guarantee that you will have made an investment buenisima although the hotel is very expensive. But every walk of mine and / or production. I encourage and prepare a good trip with illusion and find the stone that you fall in love at first sight with a swing of his gaze and arrows.

http://www.africagems.com/burmaruby200.html

BURMA - 2CT - HEAT - GRS - Price: $12,700.00

Thank you so much and have a nice day.

Thank you for your answer, and for congratulations.