RB Cut vs Portuguese Cut?

[bunnycat]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and have been lurking here for a bit.

My boyfriend and I have been looking at sapphires for my ring. We've seen some at jewelry stores and some online here and on websites. Almost all the stones in the stores have been RB Cut but we really liked the look of the Portuguese cut stones we've seen (only online, can't seem to locate any in person to look at). When we asked about the Portuguese cut stones, the stores invariably have said they don't carry stones cut that way (because they don't sell as well?).

I've checked a little through the forum for info on the technical difference between them (layout of the faceting patterns themselves) but can't find any information really about which one might look better as a stone cut to account for why we can't find one in a jewelry store.The most I have been able to parse together is that with all the extra facets everything may flash back at you at once with a stone cut that way, or that it might perhaps be a better cut for darker colored material since the extra faceting would tend to lighten and brighten the stone (which seems why you might not want it on a paler stone, perhaps). I guess that's my basic question. Do you get better brilliance with a RB Cut stone regardless of the color versus the Portuguese cut?

Extra info- We're looking at medium-lighter colored stones, like a lighter to medium Ceylon color with hints of violet or lavender, sort of a tanzanite color, or possibly a medium Montana blue sapphire with some nice teal tones to it. (The ring we're leaning towards is going to be a yellow gold halo ring.)

Thanks for any info you might have.

 

[T L]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and have been lurking here for a bit.

My boyfriend and I have been looking at sapphires for my ring. We've seen some at jewelry stores and some online here and on websites. Almost all the stones in the stores have been RB Cut but we really liked the look of the Portuguese cut stones we've seen (only online, can't seem to locate any in person to look at). When we asked about the Portuguese cut stones, the stores invariably have said they don't carry stones cut that way (because they don't sell as well?).

I've checked a little through the forum for info on the technical difference between them (layout of the faceting patterns themselves) but can't find any information really about which one might look better as a stone cut to account for why we can't find one in a jewelry store.The most I have been able to parse together is that with all the extra facets everything may flash back at you at once with a stone cut that way, or that it might perhaps be a better cut for darker colored material since the extra faceting would tend to lighten and brighten the stone (which seems why you might not want it on a paler stone, perhaps). I guess that's my basic question. Do you get better brilliance with a RB Cut stone regardless of the color versus the Portuguese cut?

Extra info- We're looking at medium-lighter colored stones, like a lighter to medium Ceylon color with hints of violet or lavender, sort of a tanzanite color, or possibly a medium Montana blue sapphire with some nice teal tones to it. (The ring we're leaning towards is going to be a yellow gold halo ring.)

Thanks for any info you might have.

Here's my sapphire that I just got, it's a medium light tone, and Portuguese cut, and I love it. I love Portuguese faceting on lighter stones because they add sparkle and brillance in colored stones, that for me, I don't see on a round brillant as much. I suppose it's a matter of taste though. The white line across the stone is a reflection, showing off the luster of the gem.

 

[bunnycat]

That's beautiful TL, and similar to the color range I am looking for so thank you for posting. I think they look really nice in Portuguese cut, but I've seen some pretty ones in the RB cut also.

The only Portuguese cut I've seen IRL was a colorless thing and I don't think any cut would have done it any favors.

 

[chloeishere]

I think the reason you are having trouble finding them in a jewelry store is because jewelry stores stock what is most common and easy to find, for the most part. Round brilliant is the traditional round cut stone, and they are the most prevalent cut you will find.

That said, I genuinely, truly prefer Portuguese (or other round cuts with more facets than standard) cuts to RB, from what I've seen in real life. There's nothing wrong with round brilliants, I just think that portuguese and other cuts tend to have smaller tilt windows and more life/ sparkle/ dispersion, if that makes sense. In general, portuguese cut stones tend to have a higher crown, which results is more dispersion and sparkle (but this also translates to a stone that is heavier with a smaller face view, if that makes sense-- so a stone that weighs the same amount as a RB will visibly look a little smaller from the top.

I have a lovely mint garnet that is a round brilliant cut, and I can tell I would love it more in a different cut. It's still a great stone-- it's just not my personal preference as far as appearance of the cut goes. I really like sparkle and dispersion.

For your information, here's a page on the round brilliant cut:
http://www.diamondexpert.com/articles/cut2.html
And here's a cut diagram for a Portuguese round:
http://www.faceters.com/designs/simple_portuguese.shtml

You actually are looking to a similar stone as what I ended up with for my engagement ring (which I am not wearing yet), so here's that thread: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...blue-montana-sapphire-engagement-ring.170046/. It might help, I hope.
I did look at a round brilliant sapphire in real life (though a much darker color than what I really wanted), and I think the cut played a role in why I ended up just not LOVING that one, and sent it back. My stone is not a Portuguese cut, but it is the cutter's signature "Jua round" cut, which has some similar properties to a Portuguese cut-- a high crown, small table, I believe extra facets, and very sparkly and lively.

I would suggest, if you strongly suspect you will prefer a Portuguese cut stone, that you find one online from a reliable vendor, though you can always get it set locally if you prefer-- or conversely, ask the jewelry store to source one for you (but be sure to check for treatments if that's important to you!).

 

[zeolite]

Portuguese cuts work better on a large gem. If you apply that cut to a small gem, the many facets (144) wind up looking fuzzy, because it is difficult for your eye to resolve such tiny facets. This small facet reason is why you are unlikely to find it on a diamond, that a normal person can afford. Here is an example of a large Portuguese cut gem.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-do-you-dislike-portuguese.132924/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-do-you-dislike-portuguese.132924/[/URL]

When we asked about the Portuguese cut stones, the stores invariably have said they don't carry stones cut that way (because they don't sell as well?).

Portuguese cuts are more complex to cut than a RB (round brilliant). It also requires a deeper crystal for a given finished width. That is costly. Jewelers would rather sell something that is cheaper to buy and easier to obtain and easier to sell.

I've checked a little through the forum for info on the technical difference between them (layout of the faceting patterns themselves)

RB has 24 pavilion facets (8 mains, 16 breaks). Portuguese cuts have 5 rows of 16 pavilion facets (80 total)


The most I have been able to parse together is that with all the extra facets everything may flash back at you

Yes, it can offer more scintillation.

It might perhaps be a better cut for darker colored material

No. Read on:

since the extra faceting would tend to lighten and brighten the stone

No! A RB (round brilliant) would have two pavilion rows of facets (let’s say 42 and 44.5 degrees). These angles are selected to return the most light. If the pavilion angle is too shallow, light leaks out of the first pavilion facet. If it is too steep, it reflects nicely off the first, than badly leaks out the second. If it is at the angles above, it returns to the eye.

Now consider a Portuguese cut pavilion. It has 5 rows, not 2. The 4 rows above the first pavilion row must be steeper, and the rows themselves must be spaced at wider angles, than RB. This means the stone is getting deeper, it is absorbing more light with this increased depth, and most importantly, the 4 upper rows are deviating from the optimum angles listed above, causing more light to leak out, or be reflected down from the table facet. The result is MUCH less brilliance.


seems why you might not want it on a paler stone

That is exactly where it should be applied. TL’s fine sapphire works, because it is light in tone.

 

[NKOTB]

I am personally a huge fan of the portuguese cut, or the above-mentioned "Jua round" (cut by Gene at Precision Gem). Mind you, I only own one so far, in a large, light-toned mint tourmaline - really pretty!

By "my ring", do you mean your engagement ring? If so, I think that having something slightly out of the ordinary would be cool, too. Just my two cents.

 

[T L]

Thank you, I am also having it set between two chrysoberyls, which are greenish yellow, and also Portuguese cut. They are also medium light in tone, and being primarily yellow, the Portuguese faceting makes them even brighter, and the light return is amazing. I have also found that my sapphire also has so much light return in some settings, it tends to look like it has an electric bulb inside. I'm a huge fan of Portuguese cutting, but I agree with Mr. Zeolite that it looks best on lighter toned gems.

Good luck on your search. I would look for African sapphires as the rough from Asia is not allowed for export, so you would have to pay extra for a recut on those. My sapphire is Tanzanian.

 

[T L]

I am personally a huge fan of the portuguese cut, or the above-mentioned "Jua round" (cut by Gene at Precision Gem). Mind you, I only own one so far, in a large, light-toned mint tourmaline - really pretty!

By "my ring", do you mean your engagement ring? If so, I think that having something slightly out of the ordinary would be cool, too. Just my two cents.

Like Chloe's beautiful sapphire above. I love that stone, and there's also that addition high crown and small table that makes for added fire.

 

[bunnycat]

Thank you so much for the info and for clearing up some of my confusions.

The reputable dealer question is certainly something I've been thinking on. There's one on Gemfix that I like and I like the idea that I know who did the cutting on it also but I don't have any experience buying stones online.

I'll have a look at Precision Gems to now and see what may be there also.

Any other references by chance? I thought I had combed the colored stone seller list pretty thoroughly, but it all begins to blur after a while.

We are getting some more colors in to look at, I suspect they'll all be RB though and it sure would be nice to look at at least one Portuguese cut stone for the ring (yes- my ering to be ).

 

[bunnycat]

I am personally a huge fan of the portuguese cut, or the above-mentioned "Jua round" (cut by Gene at Precision Gem). Mind you, I only own one so far, in a large, light-toned mint tourmaline - really pretty!

By "my ring", do you mean your engagement ring? If so, I think that having something slightly out of the ordinary would be cool, too. Just my two cents.

Yes- nonconventional would be a good description for me...

 

[T L]

Thank you so much for the info and for clearing up some of my confusions.

The reputable dealer question is certainly something I've been thinking on. There's one on Gemfix that I like and I like the idea that I know who did the cutting on it also but I don't have any experience buying stones online.

I'll have a look at Precision Gems to now and see what may be there also.

Any other references by chance? I thought I had combed the colored stone seller list pretty thoroughly, but it all begins to blur after a while.

We are getting some more colors in to look at, I suspect they'll all be RB though and it sure would be nice to look at at least one Portuguese cut stone for the ring (yes- my ering to be ).

He doesn't show his rough for sale, only cut stones, so he might have something you want and can cut it. I would email him. I never worked or bought from Gemfix, so I don't know if he operates the same way.

 

[bunnycat]

I spoke with him (Andrew, I think) on the phone this morning, and also had an email earlier and they seem pretty relaxed.

It's been complicated to make decisions on things. My bf and I are both particular about what we like and get in to ornate and detailed rings (Van Craeynest is in the mix somewhere, I am hoping, if we can stay in budget with it all). Strangely enough, diamonds just don't do it for me with halo rings and I've always loved halos and colored stones...so we stopped looking at the diamond route and started looking at green sapphire, which is apparently quite hard to come by right now. Scratch that also and on to other shades of sapphire. Add to that the fact that almost no one carries yellow gold halo settings and it starts to get complicated making a long term decision on something you haven't even seen. It's all about white gold right now, it seems.

I did find a site called Brilliantearth that does actually show all their settings in all the metals and you can overlay different stone colors in their sapphire section and see how each one would look in that setting. So at least I have some idea of how a medium violet/blue sapphire is going to look in a yellow gold halo now.

 

[T L]

I spoke with him (Andrew, I think) on the phone this morning, and also had an email earlier and they seem pretty relaxed.

It's been complicated to make decisions on things. My bf and I are both particular about what we like and get in to ornate and detailed rings (Van Craeynest is in the mix somewhere, I am hoping, if we can stay in budget with it all). Strangely enough, diamonds just don't do it for me with halo rings and I've always loved halos and colored stones...so we stopped looking at the diamond route and started looking at green sapphire, which is apparently quite hard to come by right now. Scratch that also and on to other shades of sapphire. Add to that the fact that almost no one carries yellow gold halo settings and it starts to get complicated making a long term decision on something you haven't even seen. It's all about white gold right now, it seems.

I did find a site called Brilliantearth that does actually show all their settings in all the metals and you can overlay different stone colors in their sapphire section and see how each one would look in that setting. So at least I have some idea of how a medium violet/blue sapphire is going to look in a yellow gold halo now.

I don't know if you're going to go custom, but you can always have a YG halo made, and there's a wide variety of vendors for a wide variety of budgets.

I was about to put my stone into an 18K YG diamond halo I already owned, but it was too small. I decided to reset it in something else that is also YG. I love light blue/violet sapphires in either yellow or rose gold, and I'm not a fan of white metal as I think it often takes away from the color of these stones (JMO and not everyone agrees).

 

[bunnycat]

I spoke with him (Andrew, I think) on the phone this morning, and also had an email earlier and they seem pretty relaxed.

It's been complicated to make decisions on things. My bf and I are both particular about what we like and get in to ornate and detailed rings (Van Craeynest is in the mix somewhere, I am hoping, if we can stay in budget with it all). Strangely enough, diamonds just don't do it for me with halo rings and I've always loved halos and colored stones...so we stopped looking at the diamond route and started looking at green sapphire, which is apparently quite hard to come by right now. Scratch that also and on to other shades of sapphire. Add to that the fact that almost no one carries yellow gold halo settings and it starts to get complicated making a long term decision on something you haven't even seen. It's all about white gold right now, it seems.

I did find a site called Brilliantearth that does actually show all their settings in all the metals and you can overlay different stone colors in their sapphire section and see how each one would look in that setting. So at least I have some idea of how a medium violet/blue sapphire is going to look in a yellow gold halo now.

I don't know if you're going to go custom, but you can always have a YG halo made, and there's a wide variety of vendors for a wide variety of budgets.

I was about to put my stone into an 18K YG diamond halo I already owned, but it was too small. I decided to reset it in something else that is also YG. I love light blue/violet sapphires in either yellow or rose gold, and I'm not a fan of white metal as I think it often takes away from the color of these stones (JMO and not everyone agrees).

No- I think we're on the same wavelength on that. There aren't many stones that I'd think look better in white than yellow. The best you'll get out of me on that is "that one could go either way".

We got settings narrowed down to 2 and it's available for YG, but it sure would have been nice to have some IRL examples.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Are you sure what you are seeing at the local jewelers are round brilliant cuts? Normally commercial cut sapphires are a step cut pavilion with a brilliant style crown. This give the cutter more control to create a heavier stone by adjusting the pavilion more to the contour of the rough. Sometimes this works really well, sometimes it's a disaster.

 

[bunnycat]

Are you sure what you are seeing at the local jewelers are round brilliant cuts? Normally commercial cut sapphires are a step cut pavilion with a brilliant style crown. This give the cutter more control to create a heavier stone by adjusting the pavilion more to the contour of the rough. Sometimes this works really well, sometimes it's a disaster.

To be honest- I'm not sure and am just guessing, though one place we went did say theirs were RB because they do some cutting there. I only can tell it's definitely not Portuguese. I can't fault the ones I've seen because they've been nice, but I still think I want to see something else cut-wise before making a choice.

 

[Deia]

This is my portuguese cut. This stone is around 8mm, so its on the larger side, I love the cutting on it. I think it really works on bigger stones. It seems that I see alot of native cut stones referred to as portuguese cut but I don't actually think they are portuguese cut, they just seem to have alot of small facets.

 

[chrono]

Deia posted a great example of a Portuguese cut stone example, which is sometimes known as a "flower" cut because it looks like the petals of a flower opening up. I highly doubt you'll find such a custom cut stone in regular run of the mill type jewellery stores. Those usually might source some pretty badly cut "native" cutting to decent "native" cutting. The colour quality is also usually of commercial grade with the nicer ones being on the more expensive side compared to online pricing.

I find that such a design is best suited for a larger and lighter toned stone because of the amount of faceting, which gives it more flash and reflects back more colour to the eye. On a smaller stone, such an effect will not be as noticeable, or worse yet, give the stone too much contrasting dark areas.

 

[bunnycat]

Thanks so much for all your comments. We did go ahead and get one to view which will hopefully be on it's way soon, just to see for ourselves what it may look like.

I'll see if I can manage to post a photo. It's a bit over 6mm. Unheated Ceylon sapphire.

 

[Starzin]

Oh good for you! It will at least give you a chance to see the PC in person...maybe even take it in to compare with a favourite RB at a jeweller?

It's very, very beautiful and would make a stunning ering if it's half as lovely in person Please take/post photos when you do get it.

 

[1001smiles]

For what it's worth, I saw this stone yesterday when I stopped by Gemfix for the first time (I am also looking for a sapphire). Andrew was very helpful and seems like a very nice person. This sapphire was very pleasant and I really liked this cut, but it seemed less saturated in person than it looked on my screen. Overall, I ended up not buying anything (yet), but this stone was in my top three picks, and the other two were not listed on his web site. I hope you enjoy this sapphire...

As for portuguese cut, I think there is a certain number of facets in a traditional portuguese cut, which does not work well on smaller stones becasue it looks too busy. But I've already seen a few sapphires that have a "modified" portuguese cut, where the pattern is similar, but there are less facets overall, so it does not look so busy. I think Tan's stone are like that too. Maybe the experts can comment on this better... But anyways, from what I've seen in my somewhat short sapphire search, it's one of my favorite cuts.

 

[bunnycat]

Thank you Starzin! I do promise to take photos of it. I'm excited to see the cut and compare it to the other stones we're going to look at and will probably take pictures. We've got so many ring pictures saved on the phone right now, most everything else on there must have dropped off by now. (At least I've got that down to 2 choices now- completely different from each other!)

1001Smiles: Thank you for the extra info on that. It's hard to tell online what anything will be like IRL. It was a toss up between that one and a couple of others just a hair larger. I think you are right about there being different varieties of PC. Some of them just seem a little simpler in the faceting and some appear to have quite a bit more.

 

[bunnycat]

The sapphire arrived very promptly today. Here's a few photos I took quickly with my phone in different light situations: sunlight, incandescent, and with one of my studio halogen lights i use to photograph my beads:

 

[chrono]

Is it a colour change sapphire? It looks like a completely different stone in the second picture, losing all trace of that blue colour.

 

[T L]

Is it a colour change sapphire? It looks like a completely different stone in the second picture, losing all trace of that blue colour.

It loses a lot of saturation in incandescent light as well. It should still have some blue or violet color in incandescent light, and not turn quite so greyish. Does it IRL?

 

[bunnycat]

Chrono and TL- It does get quite a bit lighter under regular incandescent lighting, more of a pale blue. I think I just caught quite a bit of reflection from the lighting in the indoor pic. I think it's pretty and I like that it has different looks in different lighting (and I photographed it in the halogen to see if that was similar to his studio lighting and closer to the web coloration), but I am beginning to see what y'all are saying about smaller stones and PC and it may end up being too "busy" for the main setting we are looking at. We're going in today to have a look at it with at least one of the rings and hopefully they'll have some other stones in now also for us.

Thanks for schooling me a bit on how it should be looking in various lighting. I don't really know how much the colors should be changing. My impression on colored stones is that they do have a different look in sunlight as opposed to indoor lighting.

Now I'm back to considering diamond too. I just don't like how they look in white gold and that's about all you see in stores. Except for the other ring we are considering. I never really experienced a real "desire" for diamond, except in this one ring we saw in a gallery. It's by VanCraeynest and it is 18K YG and the diamond looks REALLY good with it. Unfortunately, it's solitaire-ish (although a really pretty one with roses cut in to the sides) and I'm not a solitaire kind of girl except in this one case, whereas I always like halos. So I am trying to figure out if my aversion to diamond is in diamond with halos not looking nice (to me) and wanting a colored stone for it or that I might like diamond with higher K gold. BF is luckily very patient and luckily also drifts back and forth between the two rings so I'm not feeling overly guilty (though I do feel a bit guilty for all the trouble the jewelers are going through).

 

[Starzin]

It really does look quite different in the photos and there's nothing wrong in that if the stone enchants you in all it's guises - how do you feel about it? We're ready for close-ups Ms deMille

ETA: I see we cross-posted and you now have a diamond dilemma Well you should have fun comparing them tomorrow anyway. Good Luck!

 

[bunnycat]

It really does look quite different in the photos and there's nothing wrong in that if the stone enchants you in all it's guises - how do you feel about it? We're ready for close-ups Ms deMille

I'm not sure yet. I'll know more later today when we go in to the store. I would like to know more about how it will look when set and they've got some halos with no center stones in them I can rest different stones in to get an idea or at least do the old "hold the stone over the top of the setting with the locking tweezers" trick.

My first thought right now is it might be too "busy" in the cut, as other have suggested, and not be right for the setting. But I sure do love the color of it, especially in the sunlight!

Diamond dilemma- I suppose that could be a good thing to have.

 

[Starzin]

How did the visit go? Any decisions for or against the sapphire?

 

[bunnycat]

Hi Starzin!

That one had to go back. I think the extra faceting just seemed to much to me with a halo going around it. I think it would look great with a bezel set, but not with a prong set, which is what I prefer. It also turns out there's a size limit on the setting so we are looking for a larger stone. I figure, if we get charged for having to jack with the setting, it better be because we went over, not under.

So things are on hold as we look around for a stone closer to 7mm, contemplate other settings and we have a couple of different stones coming. I also have some emails about sapphihres to a few cutters, who are, quite naturally, at Tuscon right now.