Radiant/jeweler Fraud....please help

[SquareRadiant]

I posted two posts on here asking for some advice but didn''t get much of a response. I found this site after my fiancee purchased my engagement ring and now I think we are somewhat screwed (for lack of a better word). Here is one of the posts I posted:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-this-a-good-radiant.72835/ the bottom line: My fiancee purchased an engagement ring from a jewelry store about two weeks ago. It was a radiant cut. The jeweler who worked with us assured us it was a "well cut" stone...my fiancee ended up getting the stone that I liked in the store. When my fiancee gave it to me, I noticed that day that in different lighting, there is an ugly dark circle in the middle of the stone. I didn''t know if it was a reflection from the setting or the stone. We went back to the jeweler who agreed there was a dark circle and that he didn''t see it either when he was showing it to us (yeah right). He was only able to show us three other radiants that day, all of which were not a square (which is what I want) and they all also had the dark circle in the middle. The jeweler we worked with and the manager both tried to say all radiants have that dark circle in the middle. After doing research on this site, I know that is not so. It is because of the cut. They assured me that they would try to get some more in and in the meanwhile they tried to sell me a princess and a cushion cut in its place which I said absolutely not. They sent me on my way with the engagement ring and said to wear it until they could make me happy with a new square radiant stone. I showed the jeweler a part on the setting that seemed dented and he said they would look at that when they got us a new stone. Three days later, a small stone now has fallen out of the setting as well. Now I feel like I can''t even wear the ring. I''m planning on calling the manager back tomorrow to tell them about the stone that fell out. It has only been one week since I got the ring. No way should a stone have fallen out that soon, right?

The receipt is like most others apparently. It says no refunds but you can trade up for a better stone, they guarantee they have the best price, if you find it somewhere else...yada yada. I feel completely helpless with this jeweler. I''m wondering if they are just going to keep coming back with they poorly cut stones and then we are going to be stuck. My fiancee did purchase it with his credit card and I''m wondering if disputing it will resolve this.

Anyone have any ideas on what to do here?

Thanks in advance.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

A big red flag should have been the "no refunds" part. You may need to call a lawyer because each state has different laws. But I would not keep that ring another day. Take it back and try demanding your money back.

 

[jacknfletch]

Hi,

I am replying because I feel bad for you but I don''t really have info for you. Perhaps someone with some experience in this will weigh in soon.
However, in my business I take credit cards and I find them to be very customer friendly. Why not call your card company and ask some
questions? Also, most credit cards take the money back from the merchant, and hold it in a sortof escrow, while they wait for a response from the merchant.
Sometimes, losing the funds - even if they can fight it - is enough to get someone to roll over?

 

[neatfreak]

What does it say on the receipt about the stone itself? If it anywhere in writing says the cut quality, then you can argue with them by showing them the cut chart for radiants that someone posted in your other thread. Otherwise, it''s your word against his, and unfortunately you won''t have much discourse unless you have in writing what you were supposed to get, then get an appraisal on what you ACTUALLY got, and can show that there is a discrepancy.

If you paid with a CC it is worth a call to them to see if there is anything they can do about it. Often CC companies can help you. You can also file a report with your local BBB (or threaten to). If he claims that he''ll bring in a stone for you, SHOW HIM the radiant cut chart and demand that he brings in a stone that meets those qualifications. Best of luck to you.

 

[denverappraiser]

So trade up. You probably don’t have to trade up by much. Often $1 is enough. Give them back the ring and have them try again. This time be picky.

They have the best stones at the best prices? Cool. That’s a pretty good offer. That''s what you want. Make ‘em do it and make ''em prove it. You’ve got tons of access to competitors, you’ve got tons of access to independent experts who will work for you instead of for the jeweler and you’ve got more shopping information at your fingertips than they can imagine. The ‘yada yada’ part of that sales receipt is important. It’s a contract. Read it over carefully and make sure you understand it before you go back. If they can''t meet their promise (the best stones at the best prices or whatever it is that they''ve promised) then they have breached the deal and you will be entitled to a refund. The credit card company will almost certainly back you all the way. If they can, good for you.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[surfgirl]

One thing to add to Neil''s post is that you should NOT accept anything that is not GIA certified. Period, end of story. Just tell them that''s non negotiable at this point. If they balk or cannot provide GIA cert''s stones, tell them you want a full refund. If they refuse, I''d say you''re going to call the BBB and report them. But I wouldn''t do that until/unless they refuse to bring in cert''d stones.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

the dark circle in the center is probably the fish eye effect that is common in many radiants. It looks like a positive feature in a losse stone, but goes darkewr after the stone is set and or dirty.
There are different 'types' of radiant. Most of those we describe as crushed glass look are not as 'bright' but do not have the fishe eye to any or the same extent.

The other advice - especially Neils, should help you.

 

[SquareRadiant]

Neil,
I am trying to trade up. Problem is, they are acting like "all" radiants have this dark circle. I said several times that if they are cut right, they shouldn''t. They showed us other radiants (more rectangularish) that all had the circle. The associate who helped us (and wrote the appraisal when my fiancee initially purchased) admitted that the stone had a dark circle as did the manager (I took a picture in to prove what it looked like in the "out of the store" lighting too). They both said they would do what they could to make me happy and would find me another stone. Then after showing me the three they had, and seeing they all had a dark circle their tone changed to "oh they must all look like that". I wanted a square radiant from the get go and am not changing my mind about that. We have no problem even paying more money (as long as they don''t rip us off any more) for a better stone. I want a ring I can be proud to show not one with an obvious inclusion look and a band that is missing stones. This is horrible.

The receipt says to bring back that receipt for any returns or exchanges but the white credit card receipt attached says "no refunds".

It also says something about bringing in proof of the same cut, color, clarity at a lower price and they would reimburse the difference or at their discretion, give a full refund. Problem in, I can''t find any stones with that same cut (because some of the numbers appear to be off the chart - 79% table, 7% crown, etc.) If anyone can help there, I''d appreciate it. (

No, it doesn''t specify type of cut on the receipt or the certification which is incidentally, an EGL certificate. It says on their brochure that they have GIA and EGL stones but the associate told us they don''t have GIA stones. The dimensions (%s) are listed on the cert but doesn''t state the cut. The color/clarity is stated (which I also question). It is supposed to be an E/VS2. The color looks bright but I can see inclusions clearly with the loupe. As far as I''m concerned too, this dark circle is like having a big inclusion.

Lastly, this store is listed on this pricescope site. Other people need to be informed of this mess. I didn''t know nearly as much as I know now from this site.

Info on the stone again: Weight: 1.00 cts Radiant 5.85 - 5.68 x 3.78 total depth: 66.5% table width: 79% crown height: 7% pavilion depth: 57% Girdle thickness: Thin, Polished Finish Polish: Very good Symmetry: Good to v. good Cutlet: None Clarity grade: VS2 Graining: Nil Color grade: E Flourescence: None

Thanks again.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Search some threads on radiants and cushions here and look at the diffrent types of appearance - you may have to follow links to see images.
Print some of the images so your retailer knows what you like (after you find out what you like).
You will

 

[Jenna51580gr]

I as well love

the Radiant Diamonds but they are difficult

to find a well cut one. (that''s why I am currently looking into Rounds

) Have you tried this website: http://www.radiantcut.com/OriginalRadiant.aspx I found this site very helpful but they are little pricey

than getting a Radiant somewhere else. I wish you the best of luck of finding a new square Radiant.

 

[denverappraiser]

They promised a good stone for a good price, they didn’t promise well informed sales people. It’s a pity but it’s far too typical. You are going to need to make yourself better at spotting good radiants than they are, since they're obviously lame at it. You need to educate them about exactly what you want and saying you want a cut ‘good’ or even ‘ideal’ cut is not sufficient instruction. They aren’t understanding the question and this does not bode well for getting a meaningful answer.

You’re going to have to work a little harder at this if you want to end up where you want to end up.

1) Scour this forum for discussions on Radiants. There’s a search box near the top right corner of the page. Quite a bit of good material (and a bit of crap) is buried in the threads but a few hours of poking through the questions & answers will help a lot. Some of the vendors have excellent educational information on their own websites. Read up on the various tutorials. Pay particular attention to the sections on cut grading and how it relates to fancy shapes.

2) Order an ASET scope from Garry. Learn to use it. Learn to explain it to the store personnel so they know what you’re looking for. Visit stores and look at a lot of stones so that YOU firmly understand what you are looking for. You can’t get a feel for this by looking at price lists or even photographs. You have to look at real rocks. They are going to need to explain it to THEIR supplier so they can choose the right stones for you so it’s really pretty important that they understand what they need to supply in order to earn your business. What you're asking for is not an easy thing to find and being less than specific about your requirements is being unfair to the store. It costs them money to bring in stones for you and your appraiser to look at and it’s only fair that you be as clear as possible about what standards you will be applying. You really are heading for the same objective, (a diamond that you'll love) and it's in both of your best interests to work together to get there as quickly and painlessly as possible.

3) If the brochure says that GIA grading is a choice then insist on GIA. They can get them. It’ll save you a bit of legwork and money associated with looking at lots of stones and it’ll save them the shipping and time to bring in and return stones that you reject. Everybody wins. By the way, keep a copy of that brochure, you may need it later to show to the credit card company.

4) Change your standard of success from passing the muster of their sales clerk/appraiser to passing the muster of someone who is working for you, not them. I must say, an appraiser who says "oh they must all look like that" is not a good sign. There’s a list of independent appraisers at the top of the page under ‘resources’ that do this for a living and who I promise will not say this to you.

5) Find alternative vendors. Talk to your friends, coworkers and places like this forum to get a feel for where to get the best radiant for the best price. Find the guys with the best diamond for the 2nd best price. This is who they’ve agreed to beat, right? So provide an alternative offer and make them beat it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[SquareRadiant]

Neil,
I got a call from the jeweler yesterday before I left work. They said they ordered three square radiants from GIA and will have them by the end of the week. Can I assume that if they are GIA, the cut grade should be on the certificate? I''m not sure if a GIA stone can also be problematic. I used to believe if it had one then the stone was high quality but now I realize that''s not really the case either.

Thanks

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/27/2007 5:08:18 AM
Author: SquareRadiant
Neil,
I got a call from the jeweler yesterday before I left work. They said they ordered three square radiants from GIA and will have them by the end of the week. Can I assume that if they are GIA, the cut grade should be on the certificate? I''m not sure if a GIA stone can also be problematic. I used to believe if it had one then the stone was high quality but now I realize that''s not really the case either. 

Thanks

GIA don''t grade fancy shapes for cut / light performance at this time SR.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 11/27/2007 5:08:18 AM
Author: SquareRadiant
Neil,
I got a call from the jeweler yesterday before I left work. They said they ordered three square radiants from GIA and will have them by the end of the week. Can I assume that if they are GIA, the cut grade should be on the certificate? I''m not sure if a GIA stone can also be problematic. I used to believe if it had one then the stone was high quality but now I realize that''s not really the case either. 

Thanks

Great!

This sounds like a store that’s really trying to please you. It’s going well. Don’t forget your part. You need to be prepared to look at the stones they show you and tell them which you prefer and why. Spend the next few days working on your own education. Line up your choice for an appraiser.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver