Purchasing an OEC without a GIA report

[ming]

In my search for an OEC I found one locally that I liked more than the 2 from JbEG. The local one had more fire in it etc. However, it doesn't have a cert. So I asked them to see what it would take to have one done. They called me back and asked why I needed it and I explained that I wouldn't buy a $13K stone without it and I needed documentation that the quality of the stone is what they were telling me. They requested I put 50% down on the stone in order to have the GIA done and stated that when the OECs were cut many moons ago they weren't certified, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Am I being nuts to think that I am making a reasonable request? I really liked working with this group until this recent phone call and now I am inclined to just walk away and keep looking. Erica is checking out 2 stones she got in today to see if they'd be worth me checking out I can wait as long as needed at this point. While I'd love to move the process along I'm not in a hurry and can wait as long as it takes.


Thoughts?

 

[Hera]

They don't really want to send it to GIA for few reasons:
1. The stone will likely come back a lower grade than they are selling it for. Many estate jewelers use very soft grading for the stones but also have a hard time judging the color. Old cuts can hide their color very well
2. The lab report may reveal undesirable traits that they might not want to highlight. There's everything from chips to poor cut grades.
3. They have to put the money into shipping and certification and then you could still decide to pass on the stone.

I wouldn't put down deposits for the stones. There's other vendors that get certification whether it's GIA or EGL or a worthwhile appraiser like Dave atlas that it's not necessary.

Good luck on your hunt.

 

[ming]

Thank you! I didn't think I was off base. I can handle if the color comes back lower since I compared it to other stones and it was a good color on my hand. I also think it was a higher color than the JbEG stone just comparing them on my hands but the JbEG stone also faced up about the same color.

I am worried about inclusions and what may be there. And I agree that they may be balking at getting it done because of what they may find. Or because they know I am looking at stones from other sources. I also don't think that is unreasonable for them to expect since I'd do the same if I was buying a car or another high ticket item. And as I said, sadly, I really liked my dealings with them until the call this afternoon.

I'll have to keep looking which is fine. I did want to find something before the end of the year since we are moving abroad and I am sure the pricing is better here than in the UK. But I can also skip an ering for now and think about it later if needed. We are getting married in 3.5 weeks (elopement so short planning process) so I'll have a band to occupy me for a bit .

 

[ming]

And just to clarify, this wasn't really an estate jeweler. They got the diamond in from a broker so I would assume it would only benefit the broker to have it certified more so than the store in case I didn't go with the stone.

 

[leoshraeder]

You are smart to walk away. Buying diamonds without proper grading reports isn't the right thing to do from a consumer's perspective.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Given all the details of the vendor and the situation, I agree with Hera. A store like that should offer a report. You should not put money down. I also don't like the BS sales tactics they are using to convince you to do without the report.

 

[arkieb1]

9 times out of 10 vendors either lie or get the colour and possibly the clarity wrong when they sell people Old Cuts. Some have no idea, some mislead the customer. Old Cuts can hide or mask colour in a way that modern cut stones do not. Ask them if you could either get it Independently appraised or get a certificate done for it, with the flexibility to negotiate on price if it comes back different to what they are stating that it is.

 

[Gypsy]

The only way I'd put 1/2 that money down is:

1. In writing that if it comes back more than two color grades different from their estimate (write their estimate down) you get ALL your money back. So if they said G you get a refund if it comes back a J. And at your option, if it comes back more than two color grades you get to put your deposit toward a purchase, at a reduced negotiated price.
2. If you buy the stone, you still get a at least a 7 day FULL return policy, full refund (no credit) on the purchase.

 

[kenny]

I'd insist on a GIA or AGS report, and would not give them one dime before I see the report.
And yes the price goes down if the report gives lower grades on color an clarity than the vendor claimed.
They should be thankful they are not sued for fraud.

Who cares if the diamond was cut long ago and a modern grading report from a lab with reputable standards will eat it alive.
The whole point of a report from a good lab is truth!
Is the vendor arguing that truth is not fair, or something?


You can't get me to fork out over around $500 without a report from a reputable lab.

If you tell me EGL is standard for old cuts I'll say, "Phoey!" Standard Schmandard!
We all know EGL has bogus grades.
Run away from vendors claiming these bogus grades from a bogus lab is 'standard'.
Shame on vendors supporting/using this lab for new diamonds or old ones.

That said, I really like Erica and Grace.
Really nice people with whom I'd love to have the pleasure of doing business.
I just wish they'd abandon EGL and adopt GIA and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[TC1987]

Most of the old cuts are sent to EGL. It might be unrealistic to expect or demand that it have a GIA or AGS report, unless you want to pay for it. Most old stones are going to get a real low cut grade from GIA or AGS because they are (drumroll...) old stones not cut to modern standards in most cases!

With old cuts, the chips and other wear and tear can reduce the clarity to I1. Without those, the clarity can be substantially higher.

If diamonds are graded face down, I don't see how the deep old stones would mask color. I can still still see tint from the bottom or side view. Please explain this masking thing. Or do you mean they face-up whiter?

 

[armywife13]

That said, I really like Erica and Grace.
Really nice people with whom I'd love to have the pleasure of doing business.
I just wish they'd abandon EGL and adopt GIA and let the chips fall where they may.

Kenny, it actually looks like they are starting to get the majority of their loose stones GIA certed. I have been very happy to see more GIA certs on their site!

OP, I would not put money down without a report unless they agree to the signed document Gypsy stated above. And even that I would only do if you are head over heals for the stone. Otherwise, as hard as it is(and I know it can be HARD), I would try to be patient and see what other stones Erica has so that you can compare them all.

 

[ericad]

I just wish they'd abandon EGL and adopt GIA and let the chips fall where they may.

Pssst - we moved from EGL to GIA about 6 months ago, though we did it quietly (no fanfare). We still have some EGL goods on the site, but they're winding down, most of our loose stones are GIA now, with some finished pieces appraised by Dave Atlas in lieu of lab reports (when unmounting a stone isn't possible.) Just wanted to clarify that. And thanks for the kind words, Kenny. All new goods go to GIA for overnight service now (spendy but worth it).

Ming, though I'd love to find you something, if you love the diamond in the local shop then my advice is to make the sale contingent upon a GIA report or independent appraisal. Does the store have a clear return policy? If so, perhaps you can buy the diamond using your credit card and have it independently appraised, then simply return it or try to negotiate down the price if it comes in lower than represented. If the return policy is not clear, then my suggestion is to make the sale contingent on the report - if it comes in as represented, you pay for the cost of the cert and buy the diamond. If not, you walk away and the dealer pays for the report (or you try to negotiate the price down). If the seller balks at this compromise, then that really tells you what you need to know. But do note that GIA's standard turnaround time is 4+ weeks, or you can pay double the price for overnight service - those are really the only two options.

Also, the purpose of a lab report has nothing to do with the age of the stone. Yes, things like symmetry and polish will get dinged in an old cut because, well, it's old! Cut grades (should it come back as an RB, which many OEC's do) are biased towards diamonds cut using modern technology, so 99.9% of genuine old stones (not reproduction pieces) will come back with grades like poor or fair, or occasionally good because they're being graded using modern RB standards. The real value of a lab report is to determine color, clarity, accurate dimensions and other measurements, possible damage (not uncommon in an antique), etc. to ensure that you know what you're buying.

At this size range, the difference in price from one color grade to the next is thousands of dollars. This is not an ebay treasure hunt or pawnshop buy - this is a retail purchase, and should be properly certed. For example, looking at Rap for a 2 carat, assuming SI1 clarity, the difference in price between a K and an M is $5k!

At the end of the day I want you to find your dream OEC, even if it's not one of ours. So do let me know if I can be of further assistance, even if you just need advice - I'm happy to help.

 

[Dreamer_D]

That said, I really like Erica and Grace.
Really nice people with whom I'd love to have the pleasure of doing business.
I just wish they'd abandon EGL and adopt GIA and let the chips fall where they may.

Kenny, it actually looks like they are starting to get the majority of their loose stones GIA certed. I have been very happy to see more GIA certs on their site!

I've also been really pleased to see this!

 

[Alistra]

Ming, I don't think your desire to have a GIA report is unreasonable. I bought a 3.11 OEC last year from a local estate jeweler. It didn't have a GIA report, but I really loved the stone. I spoke with the owner and let him know that I wasn't comfortable buying without a GIA report verifying the specs. We wrote up a document stating that I could cancel the sale if any of the specs did not match their grading. I purchased the ring, and they sent the diamond to GIA at their expense. The report came back, and they were dead on on the color and clarity. The only difference was that the diamond was 1 point heavier than their stated weight. I was very pleased with the transaction, and their willingness to stand by their grading (which was obviously well founded).

You are contemplating an expensive purchase. You deserve what you are paying for, and to work with someone who has earned your confidence. If the purchase was smaller, you would still deserve these things but there comes a point when I believe it is no longer cost effective to get a reliable grading report. On a less expensive purchase, it might also be worth it to take a chance on something you really loved.

 

[aljdewey]

In my search for an OEC I found one locally that I liked more than the 2 from JbEG. The local one had more fire in it etc. However, it doesn't have a cert. So I asked them to see what it would take to have one done. They called me back and asked why I needed it and I explained that I wouldn't buy a $13K stone without it and I needed documentation that the quality of the stone is what they were telling me. They requested I put 50% down on the stone in order to have the GIA done and stated that when the OECs were cut many moons ago they weren't certified, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Am I being nuts to think that I am making a reasonable request? I really liked working with this group until this recent phone call and now I am inclined to just walk away and keep looking. Erica is checking out 2 stones she got in today to see if they'd be worth me checking out I can wait as long as needed at this point. While I'd love to move the process along I'm not in a hurry and can wait as long as it takes.


Thoughts?

I think you are both making reasonable requests. It's not unreasonable for you to ask for a grading report, but it's also not unreasonable for them to ask you for a deposit. Sending out the stone means they are taking it off the market for a few weeks to get the grading report, so they'd like some assurance that you're serious about potentially purchasing the stone (much like earnest deposits when you buy a home). The deposit signifies you're serious (and gives them a real chance at sale since it would be harder to buy something else while you wait for results).

You haven't said the deposit is non-refundable, so I'd presume it's fully refundable (or possibly refundable less the cost of appraisal, depending on your agreement with them). I don't see why a deposit would be onerous as long as you can decline to complete sale if the results are not satisfactory.

Oh, and the question on why you need the report is probably to see if they can help you. If the reason for appraisal was "I need one to get insurance", they could likely provide one for insurance purposes. If the reason is 'I'd like an independent opinion on the color/clarity of the stone", then they couldn't help. It's a fair question for them to ask.