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egorr85

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
37
Question:

When purchasing a diamond off of a website (blue nile, whiteflash, etc) do people believe that it is necessary to see a picture or a 360 of the actual diamond if the one you are purchasing is of a VVS2 clarity or better and scores a 2.0 or lower on the HCA? At this clarity and cut shouldnt I feel pretty confident that its going to be a nice rock without having to actually see it?


(Specificaly the three below)

Diamonds:

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-cert-viewer?cert_pid=LD02043626&cert_num=1

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-cert-viewer?cert_pid=LD03539962&cert_num=1

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-cert-viewer?cert_pid=LD03264024&cert_num=1
 
IMO, getting IS/ASET images is the difference between feeling confident you have a 'nice' stone, vs having the means necessary to reliably choose and compare different stones to get a stone with the least light leakage and most sparkle.

The only (poor) analogy I can think of is buying a new car untested (since I'm buying one soon :lol: ). VVS2s have no visible inclusions to the eye, so you don't have to worry about car dents. Without IS/ASETs, it would be like deciding based on the manufacturer's spec sheets and nothing more. With IS/ASETs, it's like reading car reports/reviews, knowing the tested acceleration times, and being able to objectively compare it to other cars. Many people buy cars from spec sheets alone, and enthusiasts can feel confident about not picking a lemon. But the average person doesn't have the knowledge to do this, and needs more info to shop around, compare and pick the best performer.

Of course, that all might not have made any sense :loopy:
 
I like hawks analogy a lot, however I think that purchasing without images is like purchasing a car based on the car spec sheet and consumer reports, purchasing with actual photos and IS images is like actually taking the car for a test drive with the salesman in the seat beside you. He can answer your questions and offer interesting tid bits about the cars handling and performance. Purchasing the stone is like buying the car....once you get it home, the real test ride happens and you can feel free to open it up on the highway and see how she really handles! ;))

edit: on second thought I think I just basically said the exact same thing as hawk. lol
 
I'd understand the reason for having to see a picture when you are buying a diamond of lower clarity, color, cut etc.... But I just dont see the necessity when its a diamond of such high clarity, color, cut, rates excelent on HCA (as those three do)...

I'd feel fine not driving a high quality new car before buying it... I'd understand the need to test drive a used, lower quality car before puting down a chunk of money.
 
Even each car has its nuances; turning radius, high speed handling, braking distance, cornering handling, steering weight and handling, road feel and etc. The same for MRBs; they come in many flavours and even if on paper, it looks the same, they each have their own nuances. I would still want to see at least a picture, if not a video and ASET/IS of the diamond before purchase.
 
Sure, a Lamborghini drives differently than Ferrari... But I am pretty sure I'd take either one without test driving them... I’d more than likely want to go test drive a ford focus and Mazda 3 to see how they drive before buying….

Maybe I'll phrase the original question differently... is there a point in a diamonds grade where you would feel comfortable not having to see a picture. Lets say a diamond has Ideal Cut, D Color, Internally flawless, perfect HCA score, etc. all on paper…. What is the purpose of seeing it before buying.. Sure, one diamond rated like that may have differences (nuances) between another rated the same…. But does anyone think they both wont be awesome diamonds?
 
Perfect HCA score is not a guarantee and who is the one calling it an ideal cut? Ideal to one person might not be ideal to another person.
 
Isnt "Ideal" (or excellent) cut a quantitative quality of a diamond? The cut grading doesnt change depending on who sees it. If it is an excellent cut then its an excellent cut...
 
I understand different laboratories may grade cuts differently... but thats because they have different quantitative requirements for cuts... Within the same laboratory grading system all graders should come up with the same rating....
 
I can not find a comparible diamond with the same specs as the three above for anywhere near the price when I search a site that gives IS pics and or pictures/videos of the diamond... (at least VVS, G color, excellent cut, 1.5 ct, HCA <2, GIA Cert)

Obviously If i had a choice I would rather see the diamond before buying it... but it comes down to saving money... in many instances a lot of money...

Does anyone think I would be disapointed with the three diamonds above?
 
There's lots of Appraisers out there who can take IS/ASET pictures if you want them. The required budget for this is nominal.

I suspect the reason the one's you've chosen are less expensive than the ones you're looking at as comparable has to do with the Medium Fluorescence. I don't have big issues with Fluro as a shopper but it DOES affect the price.

You are going to see the diamond before you buy. What you are committing to at this point is the shipping to bring it in and take look at it. With any dealer that I would even consider shopping with, which includes the guy's you've picked by the way, the deal isn't done until you've looked at it, showed it to your friends, showed it to your appraiser, looked at it in a variety of lighting and determined that YOU are happy with it.

For round diamonds, I don't find dealer supplied glamour shots to be all that useful a shopping tool, regardless of the clarity. Even at the low clarities, say I2, there's too much variation that has to do with the way the pictures are taken to be all that useful and people buying I2's usually aren't all that picky about the internal details under magnification. It is a nice clue that the dealer actually has the stone they're selling, which lends some credibility to what they otherwise tell you about it (like claims about 'eye clean') but the photo itself doesn't usually help all that much.
 
egorr85|1377173883|3507927 said:
Sure, a Lamborghini drives differently than Ferrari... But I am pretty sure I'd take either one without test driving them... I’d more than likely want to go test drive a ford focus and Mazda 3 to see how they drive before buying….

Maybe I'll phrase the original question differently... is there a point in a diamonds grade where you would feel comfortable not having to see a picture. Lets say a diamond has Ideal Cut, D Color, Internally flawless, perfect HCA score, etc. all on paper…. What is the purpose of seeing it before buying.. Sure, one diamond rated like that may have differences (nuances) between another rated the same…. But does anyone think they both wont be awesome diamonds?
Click to expand...
I absolutely would NOT buy a Ferrari without a test drive. Issues like how much headroom is available, for example, would have a lot to do with my enjoyment of the car and mostly don't appear in the specs. There are other things like this that you may not have thought of up front but that, at the end, turn out to be important to you.
 
Completely random distraction.

A number of years ago I was car shopping and, based on spec and things like Consumers Reports, I considered a Ford Bronco II. I'm a pretty tall guy and that's a pretty big car that caters to the 'cowboy' sort of crowd around here. The roof in the cab is really high so you can wear your cowboy hat comfortably. No problem, lots of head room. The problem was that they assumed that all that room was for your hat, not your head. The rear view mirror was this giant thing below eye level rather than up high at the roof line like they are in most cars. It blocked out half the windshield! Short people with big hats wouldn't have noticed it and it wasn't really what you would call a defect in the car but for me it was incredibly irritating. Needless to say, I didn't end up buying a Bronco.
 
This one faces up smaller than many well cut stones of the same weight, it's a function of both it's depth (63.7) and it's high crown(16.5%).

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-cert-viewer?cert_pid=LD02043626&cert_num=1

This ones proportions fall into what most here consider 'safe' however with long (85) lgfs and 55 stars, it will have a different 'flavor' than many here prefer. This goes back to what Chrono was trying to explain to you about each stone being unique and having it's own specific look. You may/may not notice the slight differences but to some people they can be quite obvious. I should also mention tht GIA rounds and averages it's proportions...to 5% in regard to the lgf's and stars so really impossible without images to determine the 'exact' look this stone will have. I'll try to find an image for you explaining what I'm trying to say. Ok, found a couple of images, I'll attach them at the bottom, along with a link to minor facets, to explain further how they impact 'the look' of a diamond.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-cert-viewer?cert_pid=LD03539962&cert_num=1

This is another that falls within what many feel are 'safe' proportions, however as I mentioned, GIA rounds and averages it's proportions. Depending on how tight the variances are around the diamond and which direction GIA rounded, it's possible that there may be leakage under the table. There may not be, and even if there is, it may or may not be visible to the naked eye. But without additional information your just don't know.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-cert-viewer?cert_pid=LD03264024&cert_num=1

...and here are the images representing lgf and star length. Keep in mind that yours are somewhere between 83-87, so longer than these.
http://www.goodoldgold.com/content.php?c=98

5581.jpg

5583.jpg
 
Thanks for the input Denverappraiser....


How much stock do you put into the HCA score of the diamond... For the three i am looking at, two are 1.8 and one is 2.2. Would I see any difference in the sparkle/fire/brilliance (and whatever else they want to call it) between these two numbers? Will 1.8 give good sparkle?


Also, would I be able to tell between Very good Symmetry and Excellent Symmetry?

Will Medium Blue fluorescence make it look hazy? or is that only with strong fluorescence? Will medium blue make those three look more like F colors than G colors? (not that the difference is even discernable)

So many questions.... it's a lot of money... just want to get it right....
 
HCA is a rejection tool, it means the diamond is worth looking at. It doesn't mean it's the best.
 
egorr85|1377172431|3507921 said:
I'd understand the reason for having to see a picture when you are buying a diamond of lower clarity, color, cut etc.... But I just dont see the necessity when its a diamond of such high clarity, color, cut, rates excelent on HCA (as those three do)...

I'd feel fine not driving a high quality new car before buying it... I'd understand the need to test drive a used, lower quality car before puting down a chunk of money.
Click to expand...

I like to put three to five diamonds in a tray when showing diamonds to a live client versus an Internet client.

These might all have AGS 0 cut grades or All GIA EX cut grades which are all "equal" on paper.

Always there will be one or two that stand out as better looking or one or two that really stand out as substandard, how in the heck did they get that top cut grade looking.

Paper does NOT tell the story about how any diamond will look to your eyes. Period. Exclamation point!

Just my opinion of course, but you really NEED to see it and have the right to return it if it does not make YOUR eyes happy.

Wink
 
egorr85|1377183285|3508010 said:
Thanks for the input Denverappraiser....


How much stock do you put into the HCA score of the diamond... For the three i am looking at, two are 1.8 and one is 2.2. Would I see any difference in the sparkle/fire/brilliance (and whatever else they want to call it) between these two numbers? Will 1.8 give good sparkle?


Also, would I be able to tell between Very good Symmetry and Excellent Symmetry?

Will Medium Blue fluorescence make it look hazy? or is that only with strong fluorescence? Will medium blue make those three look more like F colors than G colors? (not that the difference is even discernable)

So many questions.... it's a lot of money... just want to get it right....
Click to expand...


Not DA, but I'll play. :))

HCA only measures four measurements of the entire diamond, it make assumptions about the stone that may or not be true, for example it assumes a symmetric stone and medium girdle. It design was meant only to be used to weed through long virtual list in order to help create much smaller short lists. It can only tell you if a stone is worth further investigation ie. actual photos and idealscope images. It also takes only one persons preferences into consideration...yours may differ. It should not be used as a selection tool. When used for its intended purpose it's a very useful tool. Often times you will find an AGS0 stone, which has already been graded for light performances using much more accurate tools and deemed to have ideal light performance, will score poorly on the HCA. And vice vera, some stones will score very well and yet have areas of leakage that affect it's overall performance.

You will not be able to visual appreciate any differences between EX and VG symmetry, although it can be a 'mind clean' thing for some people. Some will never consider a stone that was not graded EX EX EX, some won't think twice about it.

Huge misconception about fluorescence. GIA has been very careful to attribute any 'haziness' in stones with fluoro to the fluoro itself. This thread may be helpful to you. [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-causes-haziness-in-some-stones-w-fluor.156221/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-causes-haziness-in-some-stones-w-fluor.156221/[/URL]

Many people here prefer stones with fluorescence and actively seek them out, others shy away. It's preference, however I would always ask that the stone be assessed and determined not to have any negative affects.


edit: apologies, I'm really doing a number with typos today!
 
This hasn't been brought up yet, so I guess I'll be the one to do it... :Up_to_something:

OP, is there a specific reason for your choice of VVS clarity? Most feel it's overkill and that you would be better served to drop to VS and maximize your budget. :halo:
 
There is one VVS1, one VVS2 and one VS1 stone in the line up. My guess is that the OP plans to buy the diamond sight unseen, hence the high clarity to be on the safe side?
 
True... One of the reasons I wanted such High clarity is because I was going to buy it sight unseen... the other is that I am both a perfectionist and a science nerd (so there are a lot of loupes around my house), a bad combination when you are tryingt to find a diamond :p


Thank you all for this input!!!
 
egorr85|1377187323|3508048 said:
True... One of the reasons I wanted such High clarity is because I was going to buy it sight unseen... the other is that I am both a perfectionist and a science nerd (so there are a lot of loupes around my house), a bad combination when you are tryingt to find a diamond :p


Thank you all for this input!!!
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with that, eorr85!! ;))

Would you consider a VS stone if you could view it before purchase and it was clean and AWESOME?
 
egorr85|1377187323|3508048 said:
True... One of the reasons I wanted such High clarity is because I was going to buy it sight unseen... the other is that I am both a perfectionist and a science nerd (so there are a lot of loupes around my house), a bad combination when you are tryingt to find a diamond :p


Thank you all for this input!!!
Click to expand...


Oooo! :naughty: A science guy! :)) It's recently been determined around here that 'science makes things sparkly!' :lol: You may really appreciate the science and math that goes into creating an ideal cut diamond!
 
egorr85|1377187323|3508048 said:
True... One of the reasons I wanted such High clarity is because I was going to buy it sight unseen... the other is that I am both a perfectionist and a science nerd (so there are a lot of loupes around my house), a bad combination when you are tryingt to find a diamond :p


Thank you all for this input!!!
Click to expand...

While it may not be necessary to the viewing experience, it is often a pleasure to the buying experience. There is a great deal of pride in ownership of the best, which is why no one buys a YUGO and many by Mercedes and Bentlys.

Wink
 
I think being able to view it I would have no problem with a VS stone (probably lean more towards VS1, hopefully with the inclusions in a place I can cover with a prong, like the VS1 above).... given that it was also AWESOME :p
 
egorr85|1377183285|3508010 said:
How much stock do you put into the HCA score of the diamond... For the three i am looking at, two are 1.8 and one is 2.2. Would I see any difference in the sparkle/fire/brilliance (and whatever else they want to call it) between these two numbers? Will 1.8 give good sparkle?
Click to expand...
Very little. Yes, a 1.8/GIAx will almost certainly give good sparkle. Then again, a 3.8/GIAx probably will too. It's likely you would be able to tell the difference between these two theoretical examples if they were placed 1mm apart and you were to compare but it's you would not get a consensus that the 1.8 is 'better'.

egorr85|1377183285|3508010 said:
Also, would I be able to tell between Very good Symmetry and Excellent Symmetry?
Click to expand...
Probably not although it depends slightly on WHY it got the VG grade.

egorr85|1377183285|3508010 said:
Will Medium Blue fluorescence make it look hazy?
Click to expand...
No

egorr85|1377183285|3508010 said:
or is that only with strong fluorescence?
Click to expand...
Yes, and usually not even then. Certain strong blue stones will show a hazy appearance in high UV environments. Ruling out the disco and the tanning salon, this usually only leaves unfiltered sunlight. Even then it's a rather small fraction but the test is easy enough. Go look at it in the sun.

egorr85|1377183285|3508010 said:
Will medium blue make those three look more like F colors than G colors? (not that the difference is even discernable)
Click to expand...
Not usually. Fluro tends to mask low colors, say K or M but it's not usually noticeable above about H. Actually most people can't see the difference between an E and a G anyway.

egorr85|1377183285|3508010 said:
So many questions.... it's a lot of money... just want to get it right....
Click to expand...
Again, it's helpful to keep in mind that all you are committing to unseen is some shipping and possibly an appraisal fee. At the end of the line there's a an expensive decision but THAT one will be made with the stone in hand and with expert assistance if you want it.
 
JA will get the IS/ASET for up to 3 stones for free, so it is in your best interest to get at least 3 stones. It'll take 3 to 5 working days to get the IS/ASET images back to you. You need to call or email JA with this request. Don't forget to ask JA for your PS discount!
 
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