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andrea

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
154
I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, so for what it''s worth, this is mine.
The other day I dropped off some supplies for the troops at a drive that our local TV station held. They gave us a thank you card, and a small american flag. They were very appreciative, and it was a very patriotic moment for my mother and I.
Not more than 2 minutes later, I drove by a group of protestors outside the fed bldg.

I know that everyone wants world peace, so on and so forth. But you know what...IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN

You can stand out there, and hold signs, light candles, but who are you making your point to? And that IS a question.
If these people are so saddened by our govt''s decision, then maybe they need to pack their bags and move to the opposing country, and help the other side. Afterall, aren''t they the ones they feel sorry for.
I feel that these are the people that take for granted the freedom they have, and apparently are ungrateful TO have.
This is, and will always be a soap box for me.
I''m not against ALL protests, because some are legitimate, and often have positive outcomes.
Be proud of your country, and all the liberties you have.
It''s not like we''re the only ones out there doing the killing.
My husband just lost two guys from his unit. Pray for them, and their families.
My intention is not to offend, but is their anyone who agrees with me

Comments welcomed by all
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,274
Having served in our US Navy you can bet your behind I agree. The same people who are whining now would be crying even louder had they heard there were missiles headed their way FROM SUDDAM. This is called nipping it in the bud and I'm glad we have a president who has his head screwed on tight. If we were to let Iraq go on and on one day we'd find ourselves in a position we wouldn't want to be in and the same people who are whining now would be complaining "Why didn't the president do anything to protect us when he had the chance?"

I served in the early 80's while Reagan was president and I'll never forget when he sent our forces into Grenada to bring Americans out right after a terrorist incident. The same anti war protesters were whining for negotiations while our fellow citizens who were in Granada were kissing the ground when they got off the plane and thanking God that we had a president with some guts. I served with a squadron on the USS Nimitz and remember quite clearly when we shot down 2 of Quadifi's fighters as they were sent to attack our ship. I stand behind our men 110% and anyone who finds themselves AGAINST the standards of our great country should think twice. I've been to alot of different countries while I was in the service and am thankful for the freedoms I have. Alot of blood was spilled for us to have what we do. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. Our government is far from perfect but when you compare it to the rest of the worlds I wouldn't trade it for ONE of them. God bless America.

Peace,
Rhino
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
----------------
On 3/24/2003 11
7:24 PM andrea wrote:

I feel that these are the people that take for granted the freedom they have, and apparently are ungrateful TO have.
I'm not against ALL protests, because some are legitimate, and often have positive outcomes.
Be proud of your country, and all the liberties you have.
Comments welcomed by all

----------------
No, these people are not "taking for granted" the freedoms they have. They are exercising their right to free speech. *They* feel their protest *is* legimate. Who is to say what is legimate and what is not.

I have lived in most every country in Europe. Not only is the U.S. a most beautiful & vast country, the U.S. is a great place to live. I never take for granted how blessed I am to live in the U.S. Many do not realize how rich our country is; nor, do they understand the standard of living we enjoy.

All that said, I support *our* troops. I do not necessarily support our policy makers. It's great that I can say that or shout it from a rooftop without reprisal from our govenment.

Hopefully, all this will not change.
 

Iceman

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
1,374
Im glad you brought this up


I would like to know why they don't protest smoking and drunk drivers that seem to kill more then all the wars ? Why don't
they protest Saddam ? No matter how many die in this war its still not going to be as many as Saddam has killed. I wonder if
Hitler was still alive if the UN would act the same? I would almost think yes


Before the war the news caster had interviewed a citizen in Baghdad and he said "It would be hard pressed to find anybody
here that has not had a Mother , Father, Husband , Wife or child that has not been tortured , Killed or disappear from Under
this Saddam regime!" A week before the war broke out a person spoke up against Saddam, His tongue was cut out , he was
strapped to a pole and left there and bleed to death. I could go into the Human Shredders that people prey they go into head
first so its a quick death, and the rape rooms. How could anybody not want these people to be freed??????

Why don't these protesters put there energy into something good ? Because if you look at most of them , they all look like they
are feeding off the government !

And these Movie Stars !!!!!!!! What the he// do they know about anything? They are all people acting like they are
somebody else! Some of them have profited off of the making of war movies too! I have noted all of these people and will not
go to another one of their movies.



They forget that the Solder is the one that has given you your freedom, The Solder has given you the right to free speech !
I think all the veterans for watching my back as I was growing up in this great country.

They have no idea what freedom is. More people need to travel outside of the USA to a better appreciation for it.

I back my President and I back and support all the troops that are over there.

God Speed
 

Iceman

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
1,374
Why would anybody not want Saddams Extraction ???? Why would anybody back somebody like that with a protest?

Hitler
killed 6 million jews! That about the time we all woke up and said this guy needs to be stopped! I suppose if the same people
today lived in those times they would have been protesting that too!

Yes, everybody can speak their minds here, that is a right a solder died for to give everybody.


The way I see it is ~
If your not with us your against us ! Why cause more problems protesting , why don't you take all that energy and do some
good with it and get on the band wagon to stop smoking that kills more people , or go feed and help the homeless ! Why put all
your energy protesting and protecting Saddam ???????????????????????????????????????????????????/

Sorry this is a touchy subject for me , Patriotism runs deep in my family and I love this country.

God Speed
 

geoman

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 24, 2003
Messages
5
The First Amendment

Congress Shall Make No Law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for redress of grievances./www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]

Regardless of your opinion of anti-war protesters (and I'm not saying they are right or wrong) it is the right of any American to protest. Hundreds of thousands of brave men and women have died to protect our way of life and our rights as free people.

This and other basic rights are what set countries like the /www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img] and /www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img] aside from regimes run despots and dictators. If you want to control what people think and how they voice their objections what will be next..........only people who agree with you can vote?

Where would it end?
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
----------------
On 3/25/2003 8
3:29 AM Iceman wrote:

Why would anybody not want Saddams Extraction ???? Why would anybody back somebody like that with a protest?

Hitler
killed 6 million jews! That about the time we all woke up and said this guy needs to be stopped! I suppose if the same people
today lived in those times they would have been protesting that too!

The way I see it is ~
If your not with us your against us ! Why cause more problems protesting , why don't you take all that energy and do some
good with it Sorry this is a touchy subject for me , Patriotism runs deep in my family and I love this country.

God Speed
----------------
1. Patriotism runs deep in my family. My father fought & was wounded in WWII. My brother is a very high ranking member of our miltary & a Gulf War I vet.

2. I would never support sodamninsane's regime. I have not protested the war; but, I question our policy makers choices.

3. These protestors *do* think their peaceful assembly is *worth while*. They have every right to protest whatever their choosing is.

4. To assume that my energies are not directed at doing good is laughable. I am on two boards (in a volunteer capacity) which do much good. I do not feel comfortable on an internet forum to discuss my specific charitable activites.

5. To say your either with us or against us *is* (IMHO) inaccurate. I will never accept anything blindly. There is little black & white in this world. ...just a whole lot of gray. What can I say, I'm a Libra.

6. I maintain that I support *our* troops. Their mission is determined by our leaders. Thank God I have every right to voice dissatisfaction with our policy makers.


Regardless of *my* position on the war, I wholeheartedly support *anyone's* right to free speech & peaceful assembly. It is the core of what makes this nation great; and, the basis of which our country was founded.
 

Iceman

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
1,374
That is true, like I said "a solder died to give you that right".

My confusion is why back Saddam! Why do the protesters do that?

Sure you can say what ever you want im not trying to put a muzzle on anybody, I
would just like to know why you think Saddam is an ok standup kind of guy and
you think what he does to his people is a great thing! Why don't you protest
that??????

These kids are over there and will die fighting for freedom and to help liberate these
people. Then you have people that protest that have no idea what suppression these
people in the middle east have been through, you think they all have cable tv and a
two car garage! There average yearly income is $2,500 ! That's a rich country, but so many are poor.

Before you use your god give right to free speech and back Saddam, think!

Did we all forget what happened 911?
Im just glad we have a president that has balls to do something about it.
 

Iceman

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
1,374
Im sure everyone will dodge that bullet


Peacefull protest ????? Not what I had seen on the news.

Do you think Saddam should stay in power and is not a world threat and he is a
great stand up guy for his people ?

I would like to here this from somebody that protest that we are over there .
 

Iceman

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
1,374
Nobody has answered my question on
Why has there not been protests against Saddam?
 

geoman

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 24, 2003
Messages
5
I don't think the protesters, or the majority of, are backing Sadam at all. They're, I belive, protesting about G.W. Bush going against the UN and invading Iraqi.
 

andrea

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
154
I agree with Ice. VERY touchy subject.
While I agree that people have the right to free speech, think about it for a minute. You attained the right to free speech by what.....fighting in the wars. Or at least the soldiers did for YOUR rights as well.
Again not all protestors are wrong for doing so, but it seems like that alot of protestors do it over, and over again. Are they that down on everything, Maybe, or are they what we call radicals who more often than not, cause problems for our OWN country. What about that "John ???" that helped the terrorists. Ring a bell?? He was a US citizen.
And I guess what amazes me the most is that 20 people standing outside protesting really think that they are gonna make a difference.
Now in Chicago, or Los Angeles, chances are your butt is headed for the jug.
Nobody protests the war more than myself, but I also realize what the purpose is, and I don't want my children 20 or 30 years from now walking around in fear. Not to mention that a bomb shelter is common to most folk.
Gotta go before I spend too much time on this subject.
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
Ice,

I do not think the protestor's are backing "Saddam". It is the "war" they are protesting against. There were thousands protesting the war. It is a shame that a minority chose a non-peaceful assembly. As you know, it is always the sensational that "makes the news".

Only time will tell how this whole thing plays out.

I will tell you what my point of view is. One could agrue that our "first strike" unilateral approach to this is unprecedented. Therefore, the invasion of a sovereign nation to bring about regime change is questionable in my mind. That said, I know the ramifications of my thinking. The world is less safe w/ Saddam in power. One could point to Panama & Grenada. BUT, in those countries (IMHO) we were throwing support (albeit military) to an existing organized group to overthrow a "bad" regime. One could agrue that no such organized group could even *begin* to exist in Iraq.

One could also argue that Saddam is in breach of the GWI surrender. Therefore, this military action is a continuation of the GWI.

That said, thank God I have the right to my opinion. Thank God you can disagree with me.

I don't have the answers. But, I am free to think about it.
 

Iceman

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
1,374
What to do if you fall into a conversation with someone about Terrorist attacks who doesn't believe in retaliation:

1. Engage in conversation, and ask if military force is appropriate.

2. When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

3. Wait until he says something to the effect of - "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should
not cause more violence."

4. When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.

5. When he gets back up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would be
awful and he should not cause more violence.

6. Wait until he agrees, and has pledged not to commit additional violence.

7. Punch him in the face again, harder this time.

Repeat steps 5 through 7 until he understands that sometimes it is necessary to punch back.
 

Iceman

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
1,374
If not war then what would be a suggestion ?

Do we not read what goes on in the world or what has happened to us ????

The French in WW11 tried to talk to Hitler and wanted to avoid a war.

The French are supplying the Chemicals
The Russians are supplying the equipment to help defeat our troops and have people there training them?
The French think they should be the ones that rebuild the country and not the USA and UK ?
France , Russia , China all have big contracts with Saddam for oil. I guess I read to much to make me think different on what we are doing.


So, be that as it may ~

What do you think is a better solution to this problem or do you think this is not a problem ?
 

Iceman

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
1,374
You know the world is going crazy when...
the best rapper is a white guy,
the best golfer is a black guy,
and Germany doesn't want to go to war.
 

Rank Amateur

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
1,553
I am getting tired of hearing, "I'm 100% behind our troops but I feel I need to protest this military action."


You CAN'T have it both ways! If you are protesting, you DON"T support the troops. You are HURTING the action and putting our men and women further in harm's way. Protest if you wish, but don't yammer on about "supporting the troops" while you underminine their safety. If you want to carry your sign in the valley of public opinion, you have to be willing to take it on the chin when the public looks down on you.

If these people had any nads they'd say, "I do not back our troops' efforts. They don't have my support and want them home right now!" While I'd disagree with that, at least it is an intellectually honest statement.

There are lots of ways to be "100 per cent behind the troops", and I can't fathom the fool who thinks protesting is one of them.
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
Well, you can be sick all you want.

Supporting the troops & having questions about our policies are separate issues.

The troops are professional men who are carrying out orders. It is *their* job to do so. Their honor and bravery is not in question.

To suggest that I can not support/respect *our* troops -who are in my prayers - and at the same time question that we are absolutely doing the "right thing", is not my belief.

Do you think the reaction to the Vietnam Vets upon return (spitting on them,etc.) was really a healthy intellectual response? I think otherwise.
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,436
Freedom has a high price that from time to time must be paid. Some people think Freedom is free and it just isn't so. Exersizing one's right to free expression has been paid for by the blood of our fallen heroes and by our enemies. Yes, there are folks who really do despise us and we will need to remain prepared to defend and protect our Freedom. Sometimes we will actually have to pay the ultimate price by warring with our enemies.

Peaceful protest is part of the democratic process. It does put pressure on government to keep wars short and to respect the human right of those innocents in the way of combat and armies.

I respect peace protesters and I also respect supporters of our troops and of our democratic system. This is the process of a free society. We have many different points of view and they all can live in one country....Only one, the USA.......

Thinking people would never want Saddam to develop or sell biological, chemical or nuclear weapons to terrorists who would be all too happy to bring the terror to us at home.
The lessons of WWI and especially WWII must be appreciated. One cannot appease aggressive dictators. Delay in those past times created world wars. Action now, will likely limit the victims, the terror and the death of countless people.

Not to learn the lessons of history makes you doomed to repeat them. Although I detest war, I support the action of the government and support the troops. In the same breath I support war protest, for without it, the Vietnamese conflict could have gone on for several more years with no better end result. Life is not black and white. We may wish it were so, but clearly there are many ingredients in the cake of life.
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441
I have no problem with people who have principled objections to war. Non-violence is a defensible philosophy.

As a veteran, the people I have a *severe* problem with are the "chickenhawks" who rush to support every use of military force, but, when they had the opportunity, couldn't be bothered to take a few years out of their lives to put their own behinds on the line, or worse, actively avoided serving. I won't name names, but I'm sure you can think of a few people who qualify.
 

emnightingale

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 22, 2003
Messages
52
Fire & Ice, I just wanted to let you know that I *very* much respect your position and the intelligence and caution evident in your posts.

I am frustrated by a lot of what I am hearing on both sides, pro-war and anti-war. This post may sound wishy-washy, but my feelings are genuine. Like Dave, there is no black and white on this issue, for me. Everything is gray.

Yes, we are *free* to protest because of sacrifices our soldiers have made in the past. However, I think it is important to remember that such freedom is unconditional. They didn't make those sacrifices so that we would be free only to agree with every action our leaders take. So implying, "they died for your freedom, how dare you protest" is to say that the freedom our soldiers died for is not really freedom. My father served in the navy, and his father was a helicopter pilot in the military for many years. I have a handful of loved ones who are active military, and more than a handful of others who served in the past. They serve or served to protect my freedom, and yet not a single one begrudges me my right to disagree with them or with the actions of U.S. policy-makers (which some of them *do* disagree with). So, I support the protestors' right to protest, and likewise I support their opponents' right to demonstrate. It is good when people (peacefully) exercise their right to voice their opinions, even if it won't have any effect.

For the most part, the demonstrations on both sides *have* been peaceful (that is, in the US).

To suggest that anyone leave the country because they disagree with the decisions of their leaders is not fair. Do you hate people you disagree with? Of course not! I often disagree with the actions that my loved ones take, but that does not mean that I love or cherish them any less! I feel the same about my country and government. I love living here and I know I am very privileged.

I also think it is unfair to assign a belief to someone based on other beliefs they hold. Because a person opposes the war does *not* mean that he or she supports Saddam Hussein. I know that many opponents of the war are not opposed to taking action against SH, but rather are opposed to preemptive, unilateral war on Iraq. (That said, I do realize lesser action has failed in the past.) Likewise, I think it is possible that if this war had been pushed from the get-go as a humanitarian mission, it may have garnered far more support. In addition, I disagree that it is impossible to oppose the war and support the troops. Along with fire&ice, I may not agree with our leaders' decisions, but that does NOT mean that my heart does not swell with pride and for those who have *voluntarily* chosen to do what our leaders have asked, and heartache for their families.

Do all those on either side know what they're talking about? Of course not. Do any of them? Sure. Should celebrities be able to voice their opinions? Absolutely, even though it *is* a little unfair that they get the air time and the rest of us don't.
They may not know what they're talking about, but neither does your average Joe - for or against war.

Ice, I think it is also important to remember that although SH has been linked with terrorism, he was not directly responsible for 9-11. This war is not about 9-11, it is about disarming SH or freeing the Iraqi people, whichever of those reasons you wish to adhere to. Am I defending SH? Absolutely not! I am stating that although they may be related, these are two different situations and one should not be used to justify the other. I'm *positive* you can find more than enough other justifications for war on Iraq than 9-11.

Anyway, FWIW, I think both sides are completely entitled to their opinion and I thank God for their right to express it. I do think, however, that some of the tactics used on each side to put the other down are inaccurate and mean. I appreciate that so many of the posts in this thread, on either side, were well thought out. You don't find that everyday in discussions of politics.


Em
 

Rank Amateur

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
1,553
----------------

Supporting the troops & having questions about our policies are separate issues.


----------------

The issues ARE linked, and you need to know that protesting makes the troops' job more difficult and dangerous. You cannot unlink them just because you wish it were so.

I'm not sure what the point was about Vietnam. The public didn't back the war which resulted in many many lives lost. Those that did come back home were treated like crap. A sad time in American history for sure.

I wonder if Jane Fonda ever said she was "100% behind our troops"?
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441
It seems to me that these issues are being addressed backwards. It is the role of government to rally the people behind a war, not the role of the people to blindly back every war the government wants to wage. Troops should not be sent where there is insufficient public support--that wastes their lives and dishonors their sacrifices. If public support cannot be obtained for a war, something is wrong.

This war appears to have good public support. The same was not true of Vietnam. Those "lost lives" were the fault of Johnson's bungling and misplaced priorities, not the protests. There was a book out last year ("Dereliction of Duty," was the name of it, I think) which makes a very nearly airtight case on Johnson and McNamara's responsibility for that abortion.
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
It is not dangerous to protest a war. What is dangerous is to stifle one's opinion to exercise free assembly & speech *for the cause*. Quite frankly, I find it dangerous that you feel that the protestors should not voice that they support the troops. Would you rather have them denouce the troops as well? When, in fact, their protest is not directed towards them.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe one can support our troops & question the policy makers decisions. I do not just "wish" them to be separate. I believe them to be. My views are not "whims". It is arrogant to treat my views as such.

Life is not black & white. Life is more complex.
 

Iceman

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
1,374
I think we should just end it by dropping the mother of all bombs
Lets all try to get through this

God Speed

smmoab.jpg
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
21,791
On 3/25/2003 4:29
0 PM Rank Amateur wrote:

"I'm not sure what the point was about Vietnam. The public didn't back the war which resulted in many many lives lost. Those that did come back home were treated like crap. A sad time in American history for sure."

Yes it was a sad time. In my opinion the US government was waging an evil war and putting those soldiers in an untenable position. Many of us began to equate the soldiers carrying out their orders with those giving the abominable orders. In some cases we were quite justified, too. Lieutenant Calley, for example, DID slaughter women and children in cold blood.

The difference is that NO ONE who is protesting THIS war does not support the troops! NO ONE!!!

I have kept my own qualms about the war to myself (for the most part) for fear of giving the troops the wrong message. I feel for them and wish them only the best.

In the case of this war I am also *sure* our target (Saddam Hussein) is a pathological, sadistic torturer and murderer so I know Iraq will *ULTIMATELY* be better off without him. (President Eisenhower, on the other hand, stated that if free elections had been held in Vietnam that Ho Chi Minh would have been elected President. Quite a difference from Saddam Hussein!)

My problems with this war are twofold:

1) Is it worth the cost in human life to remove the murderous Saddam Hussein (who was murdering his OWN people)

and

2) The complete lack of evidence that Saddam Hussein had any ties to al Qaeda and 9/11.

Sadam Hussein is terrible. But we aren't saying we want him out for humanitarian concerns. How could we? We supported Pinochet in Chile who was very MUCH like Saddam Hussein in his...uh..."human rights" policy. WE are saying we want him out for reasons which I think are unproven (at best) and specious (at best).
 

Iceman

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
1,374
That is a payload
Had to laugh myself when I saw it





Ok! Everybody that is against the war, I would like to know how is the best way to resolve this then ? What would you suggest as an arm chair President ?
 

Iceman

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
1,374
BREAKING NEWS: Iraq Navy Attacks US FleetNew photos of the Iraqi Naval
fleet preparing for direct attack against u.s. troops.

navyirac.jpg
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
----------------
On 3/26/2003 1
7:45 PM Iceman wrote:

Ok! Everybody that is against the war, I would like to know how is the best way to resolve this then ? What would you suggest as an arm chair President ?
----------------
First, I am not against the war. I have some problems with it - again, not that black & white in my eyes.

Second, you ask a very tough & legitimate question. One I do not have the answer for. And, I'm not privy to the information that our government *seems* to have.

Did we need the U.N.'s approval/sanction? NO...but it sure would have helped!

I don't want to be a Monday morning quarterback; but, I feel like we could have swayed some key allies. A second front on Turkey would have been *very* helpful.

Perhaps GW should have doned a french beret like Saddam. In all seriousness, I would have made a deal w/ the French. They clearly had their own agenda - try to make it part of *our* agenda. Slimey - but politics are politics.

Em had a good point. If we had gone after this stressing the "humanitarian" effort, the other countries would seem heartless to not come on board.

All in all support for a war - just or unjust - in many instances boils down to perception. My last comment was a general one.

I don't have the answers. Only time will tell.
 
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