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Princess Depth% and Table% (again)

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kizor

Rough_Rock
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Apr 27, 2003
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41
Ok...can anyone offer some clarification on depth:table figures for princess cut. Lets assume that we have two rings. All dimensions are equal besides depth and table.

Ring 1 Ring 2
table%:68 table%:70
depth%:73 depth%:71

Which ring has the better cut(will reflect more light) and why?
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272
It is impossible to assess this information from table/total depth alone. While you do stand a better chance with the 73/68 combo it is no guarantee at all. You may want to paruse some pages on our site concerning the subject and view princess cuts we've already scanned in that demonstrate this point. If you want some links drop me an email.

Peace,
Rhino
 

kizor

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Messages
41
Thanks Rhino. The info on your web page helped however i have one more question. When looking at girdle i found the following: Girdle thickness-Thin to Medium / Medium to Thick for premium cut.

What does this mean? Should the girdle measurment read thin to medium or does this mean the girdle can read thin or medium?

Some examples of what iI am asking:
girdle:thin to medium
girdle:thin
girdle:medium
girdle:medium to thick
girdle:thick
which of these should I look for and should I stay away from a stone with slight thin or slight thick qualities?
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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girdles can vary in their measurements (ie. thin to medium, medium to thick, etc.) or then can remain constant (ie. thin, medium, slightly thick, etc.)

Either is normal. What should be noted are girdles that are "very thin". If a princess cut has a "very thin" or "very thin - xxxxxx" girdle the stone can be succeptible to chipping depending upon where the "very thin" area lies and how much of the girdle is "very thin". These are things to look out for concerning girdle thickness on princess cuts.

Equally as important (if not moreso) is the crown/pavilion relationship.

Peace,
Rhino
 

mmmosb

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 5, 2003
Messages
32
Rhino-

Can you give a brief explanation of the impt of the crown pavillion relationship? I guess what is considered good v. bad ??
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
"Thin" is OK.

Check the plotting on the Cert. If you note any
inclusions at or around the points, have your vendor
eye-ball it and determine whether these
inclusions may pose a problem for you down the
road.

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272
This is a difficult question to answer (in the kind of detail I like to provide). Currently when I'm looking at princess cuts there are now 2 primary pavilion angles I look at. One that goes down the slope of the diamond from the culet to the point of the stone and another that goes from the girdle edge half way down the pavilion on the four sides of the stone PLUS you have the crown angles that go from the edge of the girdle up and the angles that go from the points of the girdles to the table.

Assessing the proper combinations numerically would take centuries. (Hence you see no real accurate measuring guidelines or tables). Some (like Dave Atlas) have attempted this but there are still major flaws with it as it is not based upon optical results entirely (though I have witnessed many beautiful 1a/b type stones, although I have witnessed equally or more beautiful 3a/b stones as well).

At current time the BEST way to determine if you are getting the best crown/pavilion relationship is to have an optical analysis done by a pro. If you are using an appraiser with a BrillianceScope then as long as some feature about the optics (fire, brilliance or scintillation) jumps into the "very high" range then be content. Most princess cuts do not score very high ANYTHING on the BrillianceScope. If you are using an appraiser with an IdealScope, FireScope or such you want a nice image saturated primarily with dark reds with (if possible) a nice mix of blacks. Both of these light analysis will help tremendously in the selection of a fine princess cut. I do not lay down my cash until I've tested a stone under both.

I have a pretty good handle on that numbers will produce what kind of optical results but to say "I'm there" just by looking at the numbers would be misleading. I've called in and analysed diamonds with seemingly great numbers only to be dissappointed sometimes.

Peace,
Rhino
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,396
Rhino is being very kind about the AGA system with its somewhat less than obvious faults. What I have long attempted to do is create a balance between "looks" and "diameter versus depth". I have not tried to make the case that 1A or 1B princess cuts are ALWAYS more brilliant. I leave that up to the AGS and their scientific studies on brilliancy and light return. But, the AGA system gives the public a good grasp on a "well shaped stone" that "could" also look very good. Cutters are not fools. If they can make a stone look good with any given parameters, they will do what they can to make it happen. Ugly diamonds are really hard to sell. Some rough forces a cutter to make a deep or shallow stone. Economics and demand dictate a lot of cutting.

If one finds a very brilliant 3A or 3B princess cut, it is probably going to be overly deep and as a result the diamond, while brilliant, will have a smaller than necessary "look" for its weight....

I hope this all makes some sense to the readers here.

The AGA system strives to give the consumers the MOST bang for their bucks. Surely, we want 1A and 1B diamonds to be highly brilliant, too. That does not always occur, because rough diamonds are not all alike and cutters make decisions on how to cut every stone as best suits their own market needs.

Retailers with highly brilliant 3A or 3B diamonds may tell you how brilliant they are, but they likely know the make of the stone has something a bit or more than a bit "off". Ask specifically how the "make" is and you might get an answer. You might not.... That is why the AGA Cut grades have usefullness.
 

mmmosb

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 5, 2003
Messages
32
That makes so much sense to me, and I am a true novice at beginning to understand diamonds. I have a princess cut that is 'classified' as a 2b, it has a good amt of fire and brilliance, but is cut too deep and does look smaller than it's .75 carats.
 

toomanyquestions

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
41
I have a princess that is classified 3A due to its crown angle (13.7%) being high, every other parameter is 1A. Stats:
Carat 0.7/Color E/Clarity VVS2
Measurements 4.84x4.82x3.51
Total Depth 71.99%
Pavilion Depth 52.7%
Table Diameter 66.39%
Girdle 3.52%
Crown Angle 43.17
Crown Height 15.77
sym vg/polish vg/flor no
My appraiser didn't have a brillancescope, but I think it 1) looks like a .7 carat and 2) is brilliant.... But, what do I know, I am just a novice...
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,396
I just ran your diamond in the DIY cut grader:

Cut: Princess
Weight: 0.7 carats
Table % 66.39 Grade: 1A
Crown Height % 15.77 Grade: 3B
Girdle Thickness Slightly thick Grade: 1A
Total Depth % 72.8 Grade: 1A
Polish / Symmetry Excellent Grade: 1A * Not a primary determining factor.

Final Grade: 3A

Please note NO CROWN ANGLE has been used. I do not use crown angle in fancy shape calculations.

It does not sound like a bad diamond. Maybe not the best in the AGA system, but it sure could look pretty. It has an unusually high crown height for a princess cut.
 

toomanyquestions

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
41
oops - I meant crown height - my mistake I was trying multitask when I posted....


I don't doubt your charts at all - they were EXTREMELY helpful with internet shopping and think people should use them as a tool for initially choosing stones they cannot see. I just think people shouldn't get too carried away with thinking a diamond with a 3A grading (such as mine) will not be a nice stone.

But, what I think is pretty may not be to others


Edited - gosh - I even got the height wrong (it was 15.7 not 13.7)...I have to pay more attention to what I type! At least I can cut and paste well.
 

kizor

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Messages
41
Rhino,

On the Abazias site one can find supercert princess cut diamonds like the following:

1.03
F
VS1
.00
.00
5.58 x 5.57 x 4.03 mm
72.4 %
58 %
VERY GOOD
GOOD
NONE

Are these H&A diamonds or are they just ideal cuts? Will these supercerts be more brilliant than other diamonds?
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272
It may or may not be Kizor. I never purchased or would endorse or recommend a diamond that I did not personally inspect no matter who the retailer or source of the stone is. I can only vouch for what I personally examine and those are the stones that I would stand behind. Even when I used to purchase from superbcert I would only endorse or encourage the stones that I personally examined. You'll never find me making a blanket statement concerning a particular brand except for perhaps EightStar.

Peace,
Rhino
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
Why don't you ask me, kizor???
I'm intimately familiar with my own goods
and have this one downstairs in the vault.
(Yup, still at work.)

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272

----------------
On 5/19/2003 8:23:22 PM barry wrote:
Why don't you ask me, kizor???
I'm intimately familiar with my own goods
and have this one downstairs in the vault.
(Yup, still at work.)

Barry
www.superbcert.com----------------
Perhaps because Kizor is a little familiar with my knowledge on the subject of princess cuts. An endorsement from you on your own stones is hardly an endorsement. He is looking for an educated 2nd opinion. I would give it to him were I to inspect the diamond personally. But then I don't think you allow your vendors to inspect the diamonds you or they sell now do you?

Peace,
Rhino
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
Yes I do, pal.
Can't ever resist sticking your (rhi)nose in the SuperbCert
pot and stirring, eh?

And guess what, I know a little about
Princess Cuts, too.

And since I have it in my possession,
can give an accurate eye-account
of the diamond's performance,
as I do on a daily basis with clients.

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 

kizor

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Messages
41
HI Barry,

I am new to the boards. Since this is your stone I picked out would you mind helping me out? I am curious about the hearts and arrows. Are they in the diamond like they are in the round shape? Is the diamond I posted a superior as far as brilliance is concerned?
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
Bad blood, bad blood.

You guy's need to bury the hatchet, kiss and make up.

Or is it kiss, then bury the hatchet in the other guy to finish him off completely?

Hmmm.....I don't remember. I'll have to look it up in my Rules of Forgiveness book.
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
kizor,

The rules of this forum forbid vendors from
touting their goods either through text, pictures,
or "educational" links. If you're interested in
pursuing this, please contact me privately.

Richard;

Check all the threads. The venom, vituperation,
and viciousness goes one way: From Massapequa Park to
46th Street in Manhattan. And it goes on privately,
too, to tradespeople and consumers.
This bull---- is getting
stale.

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
Behind bars.

He never could "get along".

Ya think Johnny Cochrane could've helped him?

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272
Barry,

When you use people only to stab them in the back all I can say is you reap what you sow. That's all I'll say about this.

Kizor in answer to your questions about princess cuts and H&A you will not find the H&A symmetry pattern within princess cuts. This is a phenomena which has only been attained in only 2 different shapes I know of. Round brilliant cuts and also Regent cuts. Regent cuts are also square modified brilliants that have an optical H&A symmetry. If you'd like to learn more about them let me know and I'll drop you some links in email.

Peace,
Rhino
 

kizor

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Messages
41
Thanks Rhino. That is all i wanted to know. I didn't see any pictures of princess with H&A design but wanted to be sure.

Hope I didn't stir up any trouble. Hope you guys get along in the near future.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272

----------------
On 5/20/2003 8:59:24 AM kizor wrote:
Thanks Rhino. That is all i wanted to know. I didn't see any pictures of princess with H&A design but wanted to be sure.

Hope I didn't stir up any trouble. Hope you guys get along in the near future. ----------------
Thanks Kizor,

Don't sweat it about Barry and I. I've been trying to communicate with him and iron out things for around a year now. This is the first time he's ever responded! I guess that's some kind of progress.
I hope things work out too.

BTW I was faxed Sarin info concerning some of the stones you were inquiring about, specifically the square stone (1.06ct D VS1). The stone has a 26.7 crown angle with a 60.7 pavilion angle along with the 61 table and 74 depth. That combo I KNOW does not work so I'd recommend a pass on that particular stone.

Peace,
Rhino
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,144

----------------
On 5/19/2003 8:23:22 PM barry wrote:

Why don't you ask me, kizor???
I'm intimately familiar with my own goods
and have this one downstairs in the vault.
(Yup, still at work.)

Barry
www.superbcert.com

----------------
Barry......seriously?

Pardon me for pointing out what I think is pretty obvious, but a customer looking for UNBIASED opinions doesn't typically ask the person who stands to profit from the sale of the stone what HE thinks about it.

Whether or not you intend it to, your post gives the appearance of discouraging a customer from seeking non-partisan opinions.
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,144

----------------
On 5/19/2003 10:16:12 PM barry wrote:
Yes I do, pal.
Can't ever resist sticking your (rhi)nose in the SuperbCert
pot and stirring, eh?

And guess what, I know a little about
Princess Cuts, too.

And since I have it in my possession,
can give an accurate eye-account
of the diamond's performance,
as I do on a daily basis with clients.

Barry
www.superbcert.com----------------
You know, I'm starting to get an eye-opening education reading your posts, Barry. I have heard your diamonds are beautiful and you have been among my short list of those vendors to consider as I've learned, but I have to say I'm beginning to change my mind based on the less-than-flattering tone of some of your recent posts. (Mind you....not based what others have posted about you....I could care less about others' history. I mean your tactics of recommending your own stones and your acerbic responses to some very innoculous posts here.)

Just for the sake of accuracy.....Kizor asked a general question without mentioning any brands. Rhino answered it, as did you. Rhino's information was on the table, in public.....not a "psst, hey, come over here and I'll tell you in private." Kizor apparently responded to that by asking Rhino a question about SuperbCerts. That can hardly be constituted as "cannot resist sticking his nose in Superbcert's pot.".....he was directly asked, and he answered.
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,144

----------------
On 5/19/2003 11:32:57 PM Rhino wrote:
Barry,

When you use people only to stab them in the back all I can say is you reap what you sow. That's all I'll say about this.

----------------
Rhino....the same admonition to you. It's very unbecoming of you guys take shots at one another in this forum. It doesn't matter who does or doesn't "start it". It can't continue if both don't fuel the fire.


 

kizor

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Messages
41
...BTW I was faxed Sarin info concerning some of the stones you were inquiring about, specifically the square stone (1.06ct D VS1). The stone has a 26.7 crown angle with a 60.7 pavilion angle along with the 61 table and 74 depth. That combo I KNOW does not work so I'd recommend a pass on that particular stone.



Wow...does that mean this stone has a very high crown height %? I am looking for 9-10. Although the table is nice and low(i am assuming that is good)...the depth is 13 points higher. Is that something I should avoid? You mentioned in a previous post that u liked about 5 diference between table and depth.
 
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