Princess cut to have AGS ideal grading soon? Do I buy now? PLEASE HELP!

[Ukieza]

Hi! First off, I''m new to this forum and have a question. I''m not sure how many people in here are experts and how much people know. I am not an expert and just doing my research so I can get a great centerstone for my girl. Hopefully I can find something online that will be cheaper than my local vendors.

I''ve been reading that the princess fancy is soon to have an AGS cut grading. As of right now there is no standard on how to judge the cut of a princess diamond. I heard that AGS is having a conference coming up (next week) that will try to define the process of grading these diamond''s cuts. I''m sure that some information has been given to people that currently cut diamonds so they can get the best possible cut on their diamonds. I also believe that AGS is not giving certificates that has the cut grading on them as of yet.

So, my question is. Do I wait until the official release of the grading comes out or do I buy before? There are advantages and disadvantages to both as you could guess. If I buy now, I could get a great cut and later when the official grading comes out my stone will go up in value because I''ll beable to get it''s cut certified. But if I choose a poor stone now when it gets certified later it may go down in value because now it''s not as rare and desired by the market. Assuming this official grading changes the price of the princess cut diamonds that are currently on the market.

Buying after the official grading comes out. I''ll get a stone that I know has a great cut because it has the grading but I also will have to pay the high prices that are known to come with ideal cuts. (Again, assuming that the info from AGS changes the prices of diamonds on the market currently.) Which to do? Buy now or buy in a little bit?

Then another question is. What do I need to know if I want to buy before the grading? Depth%, table% and length/width ratio as well as the current GIA polish and symmetry grading? If I get something with a depth% in the low 60s, table% in mid 60s to low 70s and a L/W ratio closest to 1.00 will I get the best cut diamond? Do I have to know other things like the pavillion angle? Are these numbers wrong?

I''m convinced that there is a forum out here (maybe this one) that has someone that knows these answers or at least can give me good insight.

Any suggestions/comments/answers are greatly appreicated. Please don''t feel that if you respond you have to answer all these questions. Any info on anything I posted will be helpful.

Thanks!
Ukieza

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 4/15/2005 11:52:37 AM
Author:Ukieza
I''ve been reading that the princess fancy is soon to have an AGS cut grading. As of right now there is no standard on how to judge the cut of a princess diamond. I heard that AGS is having a conference coming up (next week) that will try to define the process of grading these diamond''s cuts. I''m sure that some information has been given to people that currently cut diamonds so they can get the best possible cut on their diamonds. I also believe that AGS is not giving certificates that has the cut grading on them as of yet.

The AGS grading system for princesses is already operational, just like the new cut-grading system for rounds is operational. Stones sent into AGS for grading are graded according to the new systems already, although the new grading reports are not yet released.

For princess-cuts, this means, that the stone will return without a grading report, and that this can be printed after May 1st. The info on the grade however is available for the owner.

For rounds, this means that the grade according to the upcoming system will be available for the owner, while the report will be according to the old system. This will change after June 1st, when the owner can ask for a report either according to the old system or according to the new system.

As such, we now have princess-cuts, of which we know the exact AGS-cut-grade, but for which the report will only be printed after May 1st.

So, my question is. Do I wait until the official release of the grading comes out or do I buy before? There are advantages and disadvantages to both as you could guess. If I buy now, I could get a great cut and later when the official grading comes out my stone will go up in value because I''ll beable to get it''s cut certified. But if I choose a poor stone now when it gets certified later it may go down in value because now it''s not as rare and desired by the market. Assuming this official grading changes the price of the princess cut diamonds that are currently on the market.

The average cut-quality of princesses, currently on the market, is AGS-5 or lower. Only the top-7% would get an AGS-1 or AGS-0-grade. Knowing the cutting and the grading-system, it is practically impossible to go through the effort in order to find a stone that will surely grade 0 or 1.

Date: 4/15/2005 11:52:37 AM
Author:Ukieza
Then another question is. What do I need to know if I want to buy before the grading? Depth%, table% and length/width ratio as well as the current GIA polish and symmetry grading? If I get something with a depth% in the low 60s, table% in mid 60s to low 70s and a L/W ratio closest to 1.00 will I get the best cut diamond? Do I have to know other things like the pavillion angle? Are these numbers wrong?

To start, AGS has released cutting guidelines, with basic parameters. These are for stones with a 6 mm diameter, and depending on the cutting-style, with either 41 or 45 facets. The parameters are table size, Pavilion angle 1, pavilion angle 2, crown angle 1 and crown angle 2.

These cutting guidelines are not the same as grading, though. Grading is done on a full 3D-scan of a stone (with details of each individual facet), which is entered into the AGS ray-tracing software, in order to come up with a grade.

To date, we have cut 9 princesses according to the cutting guidelines for AGS-0, and they have gone through the AGS-lab. 4 out of them received the Ideal-grade on light performance, while 5 received an Excellent-grade on light performance. This shows that even when being within the cutting guidelines for Ideal, one can still get a lower grade. Furthermore, of the 9 stones involved, 7 needed some repair on polish or symmetry in order to get the Ideal-grade.

Based upon this experience, we can now speed up our production in order to get a higher percentage of AGS-0''s.

Now, in order to answer your question. We are in a position, in which we know the AGS-system very well, and we have the possibility of selecting stones out of huge inventories, of which the owners often do not even know that AGS is coming up with a new system. Theoretically, this means that we could earn enormously by picking out the highest AGS-grades from these inventories, having them certified, and then selling them at a premium. The sad reality is however, that even we do not consider such an exercise profitable, because of the simple fact that we would have to examine thousands of stones in order to find one possible AGS1 or AGS0.

I would suggest that you contact one of my dealers, who will be happy to inform you about the stones, currently available, and the ones in the pipeline.

Live long,

 

[Ukieza]

Mr. Slegers,

First of all, thank you very much for responding to my questions. I appreciate your time and energy to help educate a consumer that is new to diamonds. If I may ask a few more questions though I would greatly appreciate it.

You said:

The average cut-quality of princesses, currently on the market, is AGS-5 or lower. Only the top-7% would get an AGS-1 or AGS-0-grade. Knowing the cutting and the grading-system, it is practically impossible to go through the effort in order to find a stone that will surely grade 0 or 1.

To start, AGS has released cutting guidelines, with basic parameters. These are for stones with a 6 mm diameter, and depending on the cutting-style, with either 41 or 45 facets. The parameters are table size, Pavilion angle 1, pavilion angle 2, crown angle 1 and crown angle 2.

These cutting guidelines are not the same as grading, though. Grading is done on a full 3D-scan of a stone (with details of each individual facet), which is entered into the AGS ray-tracing software, in order to come up with a grade.

To date, we have cut 9 princesses according to the cutting guidelines for AGS-0, and they have gone through the AGS-lab.

I see. I guess numbers can never be an exact predictor of what the grade will be in the end. You said that your team has cut 9 diamonds. Are these 9 including the 6 you wrote about in your article, Cutting the AGS-0-Princess : the experience with the lab? Great article by-the-way but I was disappointed because actual guideline numbers weren''t included.

Is there some where I can find the AGS cutting guidelines or is this information released to diamond cutters exclusively? Is this public knowledge? I know I can find guidelines for rounds online.

What is the chance that if I found something that has been cut as close to the guidelines as possible by just numbers that I''ll end up with an Excellent-grade diamond? My girlfriend actually doesn''t want it too sparkly because she wants to see the diamond rather than be blinded by it. So excellent-grade in light performance would be ideal for me. Out of passion to buy the closest-to-the-best I wouldn''t want to go much lower than an AGS-1-Excellent though.

I guess most of these points are moot due to the fact that most online diamond dealers don''t publish the pavilion angle 1, pavilion angle 2, crown angle 1 and crown angle 2. Leaving the idea that it is impossible to predict the grade by numbers, if I did have these numbers, would this be every thing that I would need to judge if the princess shaped diamond was cut within or close to the AGS cutting guidelines? Your statement in your reply confused me because you stated 6mm diameter. Where you talking round or princess shaped diamonds?

We are in a position, in which we know the AGS-system very well, and we have the possibility of selecting stones out of huge inventories, of which the owners often do not even know that AGS is coming up with a new system. Theoretically, this means that we could earn enormously by picking out the highest AGS-grades from these inventories, having them certified, and then selling them at a premium. The sad reality is however, that even we do not consider such an exercise profitable, because of the simple fact that we would have to examine thousands of stones in order to find one possible AGS1 or AGS0.

My current local jeweler claims to reject 90% of the stones it views. They also claim that they have higher quality diamonds than most can find online, but they also charge a higher quality price. The main reason for me doing this is to save myself some money so that I can fall under my budgeted amount. It is not necessarily to gain profit because I never plan on selling the diamond after I get it and put it on my girlfriend''s finger. My local jeweler also has an upgrade plan where we can upgrade our diamond after we buy it but I''m afraid that my girlfriend will become attached to the stone I give her and won''t want to upgrade due to sentimental issues. I want to make sure I get a good one right away so I don''t have to worry about the sentimental stuff.

In conclusion, it appears that I probably should wait until after May 1st.

Thanks again for all your time you gave when responding to my previous message. You helped a ton.

Ukieza

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 4/19/2005 10:49:17 AM
Author: Ukieza
Mr. Slegers,

Hey, you can call me Paul, everybody does.

Date: 4/19/2005 10:49:17 AM
Author: Ukieza
I see. I guess numbers can never be an exact predictor of what the grade will be in the end. You said that your team has cut 9 diamonds. Are these 9 including the 6 you wrote about in your article, Cutting the AGS-0-Princess : the experience with the lab? Great article by-the-way but I was disappointed because actual guideline numbers weren''t included.

Is there some where I can find the AGS cutting guidelines or is this information released to diamond cutters exclusively? Is this public knowledge? I know I can find guidelines for rounds online.

In the meantime, we have cut more than 9 princesses with the goal of AGS-0, but only 9 of them have gone through AGS-grading. This includes the original 6, which I mentioned in that article.

I understand that you can find guidelines for rounds online, but you will not find the cutting guidelines for the new AGS-system for rounds either. These data are available for cutters, and possibly for retailers too, but you should understand that these are cutting guidelines, not grading guidelines.

Date: 4/19/2005 10:49:17 AM
Author: Ukieza
What is the chance that if I found something that has been cut as close to the guidelines as possible by just numbers that I''ll end up with an Excellent-grade diamond? My girlfriend actually doesn''t want it too sparkly because she wants to see the diamond rather than be blinded by it. So excellent-grade in light performance would be ideal for me. Out of passion to buy the closest-to-the-best I wouldn''t want to go much lower than an AGS-1-Excellent though.

The thing is that we realised, when we started cutting princess-cuts with AGS-0 as a goal, that AGS forced us to think completely out of the box. Even today, when we instruct our cutters, they constantly come back to us, in order to check if we really want to have the stone cut this way. One even refused to follow our instructions initially, until we explained him the whole strategy.

The result is a princess-cut that can not be compared to any that we had seen before. Therefore, I would say that your chance of finding one, even when using all the numbers, are close to zero.

In my previous reply, I wanted to stress that, even with our knowledge of the system, we do not wish to buy stones from others based upon numbers only, in order to get them certed by AGS.

Date: 4/19/2005 10:49:17 AM
Author: Ukieza
In conclusion, it appears that I probably should wait until after May 1st.

I wonder what difference May 1st will make. At this point in time, I do not see many cutters active in this field, and you should not expect a sudden big flow of AGS-graded princess-cuts.

For us, this is of course good news, since we will be one of the few in a very interesting niche-market. And because we keep our pricing very competitive, compared to the cost of rough, I think that we might keep some of the bigger players out of this niche.

Live long,

 

[Ukieza]

Paul,

Thanks again for your time!

The thing is that we realised, when we started cutting princess-cuts with AGS-0 as a goal, that AGS forced us to think completely out of the box. Even today, when we instruct our cutters, they constantly come back to us, in order to check if we really want to have the stone cut this way. One even refused to follow our instructions initially, until we explained him the whole strategy.

The result is a princess-cut that can not be compared to any that we had seen before. Therefore, I would say that your chance of finding one, even when using all the numbers, are close to zero.

This quote is what I didn''t realize. I was under the assumption that the way cutting is done previously is similar to what is coming when cutters start using the AGS cutting guidelines. So I thought that some of the previous diamonds would magically fall into this category. Five to seven percent isn''t really that much and I guess I was thinking it was more. I was hoping that numbers would let me trip over this five to seven percentile but from what you mentioned, I agree now, it''s probably impossible.

Well, now that I know I won''t find one that was made by mistake... do your current dealers sell the newly cut diamonds? Say in a half carat, F, SI1?

Winfield''s seems to only have round online. Icemine doesn''t have any in that category and Dutton''s has the most but I don''t know how to tell if it''s a newly cut princess. So, my next question is when do you predict a large quantity of the newly cut diamonds will be available to the general public? Do you feel the current princess shaped diamonds will no longer be sought after? Do you feel the current cutters or dealers will try to reject these guidelines as you mentioned one of your cutters did initially? From my understanding cutting by the AGSs'' guidelines reduces the carat weight, correct? Is it by an substantial amount? I''m guessing the brilliance far outweighs the weight loss.

Anyway, thanks Paul! You''ve been a great help.
Ukieza

 

[RockDoc]

Dear Uk

Unless your jeweler is a member of AGS and has intently studied the new system, and is VERY knowledgeable about cutting, I''d rely on Paul''s information with far more weight than the jeweler''s, unless you ask him about what knowledge he has of the new cut grading system by AGS.

You can go to the AGS site, and search their members to see if the local jeweler you wrote about is a member.

While Paul does write about this well, and very obviously is passionate about what he''s written, it is much more complex than what the average consumer ( and many gemologists ( but not the ones who are on this forum ) can or do understand and comprehend. AGS has just completed it yearly conclave where a lot of the issues were announced to their attendees.

I have reviewed the information for cutters several times, and I am interpreting it, but am patiently and anxiously awaiting the official grading information, as what is out there so far is directed at cutters.

Hope this helps

Rockdoc

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 4/19/2005 3:52

7 PM
Author: Ukieza
Paul,

Well, now that I know I won''t find one that was made by mistake... do your current dealers sell the newly cut diamonds? Say in a half carat, F, SI1?

I will PM you with info on what is in the pipeline.

Date: 4/19/2005 3:52

7 PM
Author: Ukieza
So, my next question is when do you predict a large quantity of the newly cut diamonds will be available to the general public? Do you feel the current princess shaped diamonds will no longer be sought after? Do you feel the current cutters or dealers will try to reject these guidelines as you mentioned one of your cutters did initially? From my understanding cutting by the AGSs'' guidelines reduces the carat weight, correct? Is it by an substantial amount? I''m guessing the brilliance far outweighs the weight loss.

Anyway, thanks Paul! You''ve been a great help.
Ukieza

Supply in this area will probably follow demand. To start, it is a difficult product to start a production in, and probably only a handful of cutters will start producing these.

If demand grows, cutters will follow, but if it turns out that there is no big demand, it would be stupid of cutters to follow.

Therefore, it all depends upon the customers whether they will pay extra for light performance, while getting a lower weight.

Live long,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have not yet had one of these beauties in my hot little hand - but as an experianced pperson with DiamCalc and having worked with a quanitity of these files now I can say that I have not seen any diamonds before now that come within a bulls roar of the stones coming out of this new development.

Paul is dead right - but AGS1 that was knocked down for minor symmetry or polish will look just as good to you as an AGS 0. (I think they are too strict on this)

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

The funniest thing happened to me and my partner today.

While we were having lunch, a broker approached us since he had princesses for sale with AGS-certificates. Now, we played dumb, and asked for more info, like what this AGS-cert is about, and so on. Just to remind you, the grading reports (DQD''s) for princesses will only start on May 1st.

We were told that this is the new thing of AGS, with rules being a lot stricter, and therefore these stones being more expensive. And yes, the seller definitely had real grading reports, not only some preliminary information.

Of course, this proved incorrect later on, when we saw the ''grading reports'', being DQR''s, on which AGS puts measurements and a grade on ''polish'' and on ''symmetry''. Not quite the new DQD-grading report, thus.

I just wanted to share this Antwerp story.

Live long,