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presidents and wiretaps, etc.

jaaron

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For anyone interested, this is a good, non-hysterical, laying out of some facts.

It's from www.justsecurity.org,, which is an organisation that analyses security issues, run out of NYU law school.


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Tapping Trump?

By Julian Sanchez
Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 4:45 PM
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Once again, Donald Trump has kicked off a media firestorm with a series of early-morning Tweets, this time leveling the serious accusation that “President Obama had my ‘wires tapped’ in Trump Tower” just prior to the presidential election.



Though Trump asserted he had “just found out” about this surveillance, he appears to be referencing a series of reports that began with a piece by Louise Mensch in Heat Street back in November, which was later corroborated by articles published by The Guardian and the BBC in January. The reports may have come to Trump’s attention by way of a Breitbart story that ran on Friday, summarizing claims of a “Deep State” effort to undermine the Trump administration advanced by conservative talk radio host Mark Levin.

If it were true that President Obama had ordered the intelligence community to “tapp” Trump’s phones for political reasons, that would of course be a serious scandal—and crime—of Nixonian proportions. Yet there’s nothing in the published reports—vague though they are—to support such a dramatic allegation. Let’s try to sort out what we do know.

First, as one would hope Trump is aware, presidents are not supposed to personally order electronic surveillance of particular domestic targets, and the Obama camp has, unsurprisingly, issued a statement denying they did anything of the sort:

Neither President Obama nor any White House official ever ordered surveillance on any U.S. citizen. Any suggestion otherwise is simply false.
Rather, the allegation made by various news sources is that, in connection with a multi-agency intelligence investigation of Russian interference with the presidential election, the FBI sought an order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court authorizing them to monitor transactions between two Russian banks and four persons connected with the Trump campaign. The Guardian‘s report alleges that initial applications submitted over the summer, naming “four members of the Trump team suspected of irregular contacts with Russian officials,” were rejected by the FISC. But according to the BBC, a narrower order naming only the Russian banks as direct targets was ultimately approved by the FISC in October. While the BBC report suggests that the surveillance was meant to ferret out “transfers of money,” the Mensch article asserts that a “warrant was granted to look at the full content of emails and other related documents that may concern US persons.”

Taking all these claims with the appropriate sodium chloride seasoning, what can we infer? First, contrary to what many on social media—and even a few reporters for reputable outlets—have asserted, the issuance of a FISA order does not imply that the FBI established probable cause to believe that any Trump associate was acting as an “agent of a foreign power” or engaged in criminal wrongdoing. That would be necessary only if the court had authorized direct electronic surveillance of a United States person, which (if we credit the BBC report) the FISC apparently declined to do. Assuming the initial applications were indeed for full-blown electronic surveillance orders, then the fact that the FBI supposedly did name the Trump associates at first would suggest they may have thought they had such evidence, but one would expect the FISC to apply particularly exacting scrutiny to an application naming persons associated with an ongoing presidential campaign. An application targeting only foreign corporate entities—especially entities openly controlled or directed by the Russian government—would require no such showing, even if the FBI’s ultimate interest were in communications concerning those U.S. persons.

It’s worth noting here that, contra Trump’s claim on Twitter, none of the articles in question claim that phones were tapped. Indeed, it’s not even entirely clear that the order the FISC finally issued in October was a full-blown electronic surveillance warrant requiring a probable cause showing. If the FBI was primarily interested in obtaining financial transaction records, corporate documents, and (depending on both the facts and the FISC’s interpretation of the FISA statute) perhaps even some stored e-mail communications, that information might well have been obtainable pursuant to a §215 “business records” order, which imposes only the much weaker requirement that the records sought be “relevant to an authorized investigation.” The BBC’s use of the word “intercept” to describe the investigators’ aim, as well as Mensch’s characterization of the order as a “warrant,” both suggest full-blown electronic surveillance, but reporters aren’t always particularly meticulous about their use of legal terms of art, and similarly, sources with indirect knowledge of an investigation may not be scrupulously exact about the distinction between an “order” and a “warrant.”

In either event, there’s nothing here to suggest either the direct involvement of President Obama nor any clear indication of a violation of the law. If, however, the primary purpose of the investigation was to build a criminal case against U.S. persons in the Trump camp, then the use of FISA authorities to gather information by naming foreign entities sounds like “reverse targeting”—tasking collection on a foreign target when your real interest is a U.S. person with whom they’re communicating. That would be, to use the technical term, highly shady even if not unlawful. Thanks to the Patriot Act, however, FISA authorities may be used in investigations that have a “significant” foreign intelligence purpose, even if the “primary” purpose is criminal prosecution—a change from the prior standard imposed by the courts, which had required that foreign intelligence be the “primary” purpose of surveillance under the aegis of FISA, precisely to prevent authorities from evading the stricter requirements imposed by Title III, the statute that covers wiretapping for domestic criminal investigations.

All that said, let’s circle back to Breitbart’s gloss on the Intelligence Community’s investigation of the Trump campaign:

In summary: the Obama administration sought, and eventually obtained, authorization to eavesdrop on the Trump campaign; continued monitoring the Trump team even when no evidence of wrongdoing was found; then relaxed the NSA rules to allow evidence to be shared widely within the government, virtually ensuring that the information, including the conversations of private citizens, would be leaked to the media.
None of this is really supported by the public record. First, the attribution of whatever monitoring occurred to the “Obama administration” insinuates a degree of involvement by the White House or its political appointees for which there is no evidence. “Eavesdrop” implies surveillance of telephone conversations, which do not appear to have been the focus of the FISC order. (As is now well known, the intelligence community did intercept telephone conversations between former National Security Adviser Mike Flynn and the Russian ambassador—but as a result of routine collection on an acknowledged foreign agent, not surveillance targeting Flynn himself.) Neither is there any evidence that authorization was sought to collect on “the Trump campaign” per se; rather, the BBC’s report claims that the application ultimately rejected by the FISC focused on “four members of the Trump team.” Mensch’s original report asserts that Trump was “named” in the initial application, but is vague as to whether that means he was a named target of electronic surveillance. (Since, again, that would entail showing that Trump himself was an “agent of a foreign power, ” this seems improbable unless the FBI has managed to keep some explosive evidence under wraps in the leakiest political environment I can recall.) “Continued monitoring” implies some nefarious motive, but a standard FISA surveillance order would run for either 90 days (if targeting a U.S. person) or 120 days (if targeting a non-U.S. person), so there’s nothing particularly extraordinary in that.

The claim that the administration then “relaxed the NSA rules to allow evidence to be shared widely within the government” is presumably a reference to the revised guidelines for intelligence sharing issued in January. First, this revision was first publicly announced in February of last year, and had been in the works since long before any inquiry into Russian election interference began. Second, it applies to raw signals intelligence obtained by NSA pursuant to Executive Order 12333, not to intelligence gathered by the FBI under the authority of a FISA court order. Third, there is no evidence whatever that any of the intelligence leaks that have made headlines in recent weeks are connected with the revised guidelines—and, indeed, this seems rather unlikely, since most of those leaks have concerned information disseminated in “finished” intelligence reports, not the “raw” signals intelligence to which the new guidelines apply.

In short, both Breitbart and Trump have advanced claims far more dramatic than anything the public evidence can support. That said, intelligence monitoring—whether direct or indirect—of persons connected with a presidential campaign inherently carries a high risk of abuse, and as Congress moves to launch its own inquiries into the Trump campaign’s Russian ties, it would be entirely appropriate to further scrutinize both the FBI’s initial surveillance and applications and the surveillance that was ultimately conducted for any signs of impropriety. In the meantime, it might behoove the Commander in Chief to refrain from issuing serious and inflammatory accusations based wholly on “intelligence” gleaned from Breitbart News.



Image: Gewoldi/Getty

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ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Julian Sanchez is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and contributing editor for Reason magazine. Follow him on Twitter (@normative).

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siamese3

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Interesting and informative read. Thanks for posting jarron.
 

the_mother_thing

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AGBF

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JoCoJenn|1488730259|4136760 said:
No, Obama cannot "order" it, but based on the case Mark Levin laid out this morning citing multiple left-wing media reports, I am hard-pressed to believe Obama did not know about this. :snooty:

Watch for yourself: http://video.foxnews.com/v/5348359459001/?#sp=show-clips

What's your point, Jenn? The FBI got warrants as it was supposed to-according to this bombastic "reporter" you scrounged up-and a court gave them the warrant because they believed there were foreign agents in Trump Tower. Good enough for me. I think the FBI and the CIA should have told the President about possible foreign espionage. The Federal Court ordered the warrants, not President Obama.

AGBF :read:
 

redwood66

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AGBF|1488731277|4136764 said:
JoCoJenn|1488730259|4136760 said:
No, Obama cannot "order" it, but based on the case Mark Levin laid out this morning citing multiple left-wing media reports, I am hard-pressed to believe Obama did not know about this. :snooty:

Watch for yourself: http://video.foxnews.com/v/5348359459001/?#sp=show-clips

What's your point, Jenn? The FBI got warrants as it was supposed to-according to this bombastic "reporter" you scrounged up-and a court gave them the warrant because they believed there were foreign agents in Trump Tower. Good enough for me. I think the FBI and the CIA should have told the President about possible foreign espionage. The Federal Court ordered the warrants, not President Obama.

AGBF :read:

That was not her point I don't think Deb. The point is he very well knew that this was going on. The optics of a sitting president's intelligence agencies spying on an opposing party's candidate and then nominee is terribly frightening. Kind of like a sitting president's surrogates breaking into the opposing party's office.
 

the_mother_thing

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AGBF|1488731277|4136764 said:
JoCoJenn|1488730259|4136760 said:
No, Obama cannot "order" it, but based on the case Mark Levin laid out this morning citing multiple left-wing media reports, I am hard-pressed to believe Obama did not know about this. :snooty:

Watch for yourself: http://video.foxnews.com/v/5348359459001/?#sp=show-clips

What's your point, Jenn? The FBI got warrants as it was supposed to-according to this bombastic "reporter" you scrounged up-and a court gave them the warrant because they believed there were foreign agents in Trump Tower. Good enough for me. I think the FBI and the CIA should have told the President about possible foreign espionage. The Federal Court ordered the warrants, not President Obama.

AGBF :read:

'Bombastic reporter' huh? :lol: Do you know who Mark Levin is? Did you watch the video? :confused:

My point is - as I clearly stated - I believe the Obama administration HAD to know his administration had "tapped that" and why they did so to have so many of HIS administration's officials involved in the FISA warrant applications and the second being granted. His statement wasn't "we have no knowledge of any wiretapping"; he said they didn't order it ... DUH! :roll:

If he didn't truly know, one of two things is clear - he didn't have a clue what his staff & cabinet agencies were up to, and he again just learned about what his cabinet was doing 'by watching the news'. If the latter, he should have been reading his own propping MSM outlets more closely last year ... when he was supposedly in charge of them. :roll:

If Obama's 'just saying so' is 'good enough for you', why don't you afford the same courtesy to the current POTUS ... that is, if you were being fair & impartial.
 

the_mother_thing

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redwood66|1488731688|4136767 said:
The optics of a sitting president's intelligence agencies spying on an opposing party's candidate and then nominee is terribly frightening. Kind of like a sitting president's surrogates breaking into the opposing party's office.
:think: Why does that ring a bell for some reason ....


:idea: Oh yea ...
Watergate was a major political scandal that occurred in the United States in the 1970s, following a break-in at the Democratic National Committee (DNC) headquarters at the Watergate office complex in Washington, D.C. in 1972 and President Richard Nixon's administration's attempted cover-up of its involvement. When the conspiracy was discovered and investigated by the U.S. Congress, the Nixon administration's resistance to its probes led to a constitutional crisis.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal
 

jaaron

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Yes, all right.

Did anyone read the non-partisan article, by the way, or just links to incendiary Mark Levin (who has said, amongst other turds, that people opposed to anti-lgbt legislation in Indiana hate America).


So, if I'm understanding correctly, the thing they should have done, is allow a full investigation of Hillary Clinton, but ignored possible collusion with the Russians on the U.S. election? Got it.

And it makes total sense for Obama, the grand orchestrater of spies and leaks, to order this all from on high, and then sit back and allow Comey to make his last-minute Hillary announcement, and not leak any of this while he still could have influenced the election? Got it.

Honestly, the lack of critical thought just boggles my mind sometimes.

And it's not even that I'm anti-Republican. I didn't vote for Romney--didn't particularly care for his tea party incarnation, don't particularly care for Rubio, etc., but if they were president I'd agree to disagree with them in good spirits. This administration, though, is just a shitshow of crazy train. And the thing is, if only his supporters would admit it -- Yeah, he's a bit of a wackjob, but I have my reasons... That would be understandable. I'd disagree, but I'd respect that. It's the unquestioning defending the crazy. It just makes you lose all credibility.
 

jaaron

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And one other question, which I'm genuinely asking - If the white house has evidence of this, why not say what it is?
 

redwood66

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Oh I read it. Especially the last paragraph which is what I am saying should be done. And the other point is that Obama absolutely knew what was going on.

In short, both Breitbart and Trump have advanced claims far more dramatic than anything the public evidence can support. That said, intelligence monitoring—whether direct or indirect—of persons connected with a presidential campaign inherently carries a high risk of abuse, and as Congress moves to launch its own inquiries into the Trump campaign’s Russian ties, it would be entirely appropriate to further scrutinize both the FBI’s initial surveillance and applications and the surveillance that was ultimately conducted for any signs of impropriety. In the meantime, it might behoove the Commander in Chief to refrain from issuing serious and inflammatory accusations based wholly on “intelligence” gleaned from Breitbart News.

 

jaaron

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redwood66|1488732631|4136778 said:
Oh I read it. Especially the last paragraph which is what I am saying should be done. And the other point is that Obama absolutely knew what was going on.

In short, both Breitbart and Trump have advanced claims far more dramatic than anything the public evidence can support. That said, intelligence monitoring—whether direct or indirect—of persons connected with a presidential campaign inherently carries a high risk of abuse, and as Congress moves to launch its own inquiries into the Trump campaign’s Russian ties, it would be entirely appropriate to further scrutinize both the FBI’s initial surveillance and applications and the surveillance that was ultimately conducted for any signs of impropriety. In the meantime, it might behoove the Commander in Chief to refrain from issuing serious and inflammatory accusations based wholly on “intelligence” gleaned from Breitbart News.


Frankly, anyone who believes anything Trump says, I would think, would welcome a thorough independent investigation of the Russia ties. The smartest thing this administration could do, imo, is to lay down arms. Stop yelling, stop tweeting, stop accusing. Open themselves up and say, We have nothing to hide. Let's get this going as soon as possible, exonerate us, and let us get on with the business of governing. Anything the Obama administration did would come out in the course of that. They'd simultaneously prove their accusations (if you believe them) and clear themselves.
 

E B

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jaaron|1488733720|4136781 said:
redwood66|1488732631|4136778 said:
Oh I read it. Especially the last paragraph which is what I am saying should be done. And the other point is that Obama absolutely knew what was going on.

In short, both Breitbart and Trump have advanced claims far more dramatic than anything the public evidence can support. That said, intelligence monitoring—whether direct or indirect—of persons connected with a presidential campaign inherently carries a high risk of abuse, and as Congress moves to launch its own inquiries into the Trump campaign’s Russian ties, it would be entirely appropriate to further scrutinize both the FBI’s initial surveillance and applications and the surveillance that was ultimately conducted for any signs of impropriety. In the meantime, it might behoove the Commander in Chief to refrain from issuing serious and inflammatory accusations based wholly on “intelligence” gleaned from Breitbart News.


Frankly, anyone who believes anything Trump says, I would think, would welcome a thorough independent investigation of the Russia ties. The smartest thing this administration could do, imo, is to lay down arms. Stop yelling, stop tweeting, stop accusing. Open themselves up and say, We have nothing to hide. Let's get this going as soon as possible, exonerate us, and let us get on with the business of governing. Anything the Obama administration did would come out in the course of that. They'd simultaneously prove their accusations (if you believe them) and clear themselves.

Absolutely. And that's what the Dems have been calling for. It's the Republicans who are saying no need, and continuing to allow people from Trump's transition team/having strong ties to Trump (Nunes and Burr, specifically) to oversee the two committees responsible. Something like this would- without a DOUBT- not fly if the situation was reversed. Case in point, many of the responses in this thread.
 

distracts

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I've been on vacation and only occasionally catching headlines but I had wondered if this was the same wiretapping reported months ago. If true that Trump is just now reading about it - that's awkward.

That it is a Cato senior fellow who wrote this piece is excellent, as they are both very not liberal and attack dogs on unlawful surveillance issues.
 

redwood66

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E B|1488734093|4136786 said:
jaaron|1488733720|4136781 said:
redwood66|1488732631|4136778 said:
Oh I read it. Especially the last paragraph which is what I am saying should be done. And the other point is that Obama absolutely knew what was going on.

In short, both Breitbart and Trump have advanced claims far more dramatic than anything the public evidence can support. That said, intelligence monitoring—whether direct or indirect—of persons connected with a presidential campaign inherently carries a high risk of abuse, and as Congress moves to launch its own inquiries into the Trump campaign’s Russian ties, it would be entirely appropriate to further scrutinize both the FBI’s initial surveillance and applications and the surveillance that was ultimately conducted for any signs of impropriety. In the meantime, it might behoove the Commander in Chief to refrain from issuing serious and inflammatory accusations based wholly on “intelligence” gleaned from Breitbart News.


Frankly, anyone who believes anything Trump says, I would think, would welcome a thorough independent investigation of the Russia ties. The smartest thing this administration could do, imo, is to lay down arms. Stop yelling, stop tweeting, stop accusing. Open themselves up and say, We have nothing to hide. Let's get this going as soon as possible, exonerate us, and let us get on with the business of governing. Anything the Obama administration did would come out in the course of that. They'd simultaneously prove their accusations (if you believe them) and clear themselves.

Absolutely. And that's what the Dems have been calling for. It's the Republicans who are saying no need, and continuing to allow people from Trump's transition team/having strong ties to Trump (Nunes and Burr, specifically) to oversee the two committees responsible. Something like this would- without a DOUBT- not fly if the situation was reversed. Case in point, many of the responses in this thread.

I don't think anyone in this thread suggested that an investigation not be done. As far as I know the administration or Republican politicians are not seeking guidance from anyone on PS into this matter though. :lol:

I rarely believe anything that comes out of a politician's mouth without some credible reference. Obama included.
 

E B

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I'm seeing a lot of assumptions thrown out from the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd (in the Sessions thread), FWIW.

Are presidents generally kept in the dark about investigations into possible treason against the country they lead?
 

redwood66

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E B|1488734461|4136791 said:
I'm seeing a lot of assumptions thrown out from the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd, FWIW.

Are presidents generally kept in the dark about investigations into possible treason against the country they lead?

I am sorry but if a sitting president's intelligence agencies spying on an opposing party's candidate and then nominee does not give you any pause then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.
 

distracts

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jaaron|1488733720|4136781 said:
redwood66|1488732631|4136778 said:
Oh I read it. Especially the last paragraph which is what I am saying should be done. And the other point is that Obama absolutely knew what was going on.

In short, both Breitbart and Trump have advanced claims far more dramatic than anything the public evidence can support. That said, intelligence monitoring—whether direct or indirect—of persons connected with a presidential campaign inherently carries a high risk of abuse, and as Congress moves to launch its own inquiries into the Trump campaign’s Russian ties, it would be entirely appropriate to further scrutinize both the FBI’s initial surveillance and applications and the surveillance that was ultimately conducted for any signs of impropriety. In the meantime, it might behoove the Commander in Chief to refrain from issuing serious and inflammatory accusations based wholly on “intelligence” gleaned from Breitbart News.


Frankly, anyone who believes anything Trump says, I would think, would welcome a thorough independent investigation of the Russia ties. The smartest thing this administration could do, imo, is to lay down arms. Stop yelling, stop tweeting, stop accusing. Open themselves up and say, We have nothing to hide. Let's get this going as soon as possible, exonerate us, and let us get on with the business of governing. Anything the Obama administration did would come out in the course of that. They'd simultaneously prove their accusations (if you believe them) and clear themselves.

I agree. These same people are always saying - when it doesn't apply to themselves - if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear from law enforcement. That multiple people within the administration find the need to lie about their contacts with Russia is highly dodgy - and I am someone who was initially quite skeptical of claims that there was anything going on there other than Trump just liking Putin because they share similar governing philosophies and maybe liking Russia because Russians have invested in his projects, without any underhanded dealings. But the more it is discovered that people have been lying, the more I think something untoward is going on, and the less willing I am to give them the benefit of the doubt. If nothing is going on, why do they keep lying to hide it? But yes, if nothing really is going on, an investigation would reveal that, and if this is all a made-up political attack, an investigation would reveal that too. (In fact, that's usually PR 101 for how to get over a scandal - lay it all out, it dominates a news cycle, and then everyone moves on. What these people are doing is... dominate as many news cycles with as many small scandals as possible so people never forget about them. But look at the previous week when there were no scandals and Trump's approval rating went up! Like any new president, people want to like him, but he and his team keep getting in the way. I have thought since day one that the very best thing they could do for their political futures was sit down, shut up, and let the Republican congress do the work.)
 

redwood66

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distracts|1488734688|4136794 said:
jaaron|1488733720|4136781 said:
redwood66|1488732631|4136778 said:
Oh I read it. Especially the last paragraph which is what I am saying should be done. And the other point is that Obama absolutely knew what was going on.

In short, both Breitbart and Trump have advanced claims far more dramatic than anything the public evidence can support. That said, intelligence monitoring—whether direct or indirect—of persons connected with a presidential campaign inherently carries a high risk of abuse, and as Congress moves to launch its own inquiries into the Trump campaign’s Russian ties, it would be entirely appropriate to further scrutinize both the FBI’s initial surveillance and applications and the surveillance that was ultimately conducted for any signs of impropriety. In the meantime, it might behoove the Commander in Chief to refrain from issuing serious and inflammatory accusations based wholly on “intelligence” gleaned from Breitbart News.


Frankly, anyone who believes anything Trump says, I would think, would welcome a thorough independent investigation of the Russia ties. The smartest thing this administration could do, imo, is to lay down arms. Stop yelling, stop tweeting, stop accusing. Open themselves up and say, We have nothing to hide. Let's get this going as soon as possible, exonerate us, and let us get on with the business of governing. Anything the Obama administration did would come out in the course of that. They'd simultaneously prove their accusations (if you believe them) and clear themselves.

I agree. These same people are always saying - when it doesn't apply to themselves - if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear from law enforcement. That multiple people within the administration find the need to lie about their contacts with Russia is highly dodgy - and I am someone who was initially quite skeptical of claims that there was anything going on there other than Trump just liking Putin because they share similar governing philosophies and maybe liking Russia because Russians have invested in his projects, without any underhanded dealings. But the more it is discovered that people have been lying, the more I think something untoward is going on, and the less willing I am to give them the benefit of the doubt. If nothing is going on, why do they keep lying to hide it? But yes, if nothing really is going on, an investigation would reveal that, and if this is all a made-up political attack, an investigation would reveal that too. (In fact, that's usually PR 101 for how to get over a scandal - lay it all out, it dominates a news cycle, and then everyone moves on. What these people are doing is... dominate as many news cycles with as many small scandals as possible so people never forget about them. But look at the previous week when there were no scandals and Trump's approval rating went up! Like any new president, people want to like him, but he and his team keep getting in the way. I have thought since day one that the very best thing they could do for their political futures was sit down, shut up, and let the Republican congress do the work.)

I think we are all in agreement here.
 

E B

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redwood66|1488734628|4136793 said:
E B|1488734461|4136791 said:
I'm seeing a lot of assumptions thrown out from the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd, FWIW.

Are presidents generally kept in the dark about investigations into possible treason against the country they lead?

I am sorry but if a sitting president's intelligence agencies spying on an opposing party's candidate and then nominee does not give you any pause then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

It's not "spying" on an opposing party's candidate for sh*ts and giggles, red. For a FISA warrant, there had to have been probable cause, in this case, to believe there was collusion with a foreign power, and it can't come from the president. For it to be as politicized as you're implying, the entire IC would be 'compromised.'

If Trump has enough proof to launch an investigation, by all means. But independent investigations into BOTH. No more freaking stonewalling.
 

redwood66

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E B|1488734873|4136797 said:
redwood66|1488734628|4136793 said:
E B|1488734461|4136791 said:
I'm seeing a lot of assumptions thrown out from the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd, FWIW.

Are presidents generally kept in the dark about investigations into possible treason against the country they lead?

I am sorry but if a sitting president's intelligence agencies spying on an opposing party's candidate and then nominee does not give you any pause then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

It's not "spying" on an opposing party's candidate for sh*ts and giggles, red. For a FISA warrant, there had to have been probable cause, in this case, to believe there was collusion with a foreign power, and it can't come from the president. For it to be as politicized as you're implying, the entire IC would be 'compromised.'

If Trump has enough proof to launch an investigation, by all means. But independent investigations into BOTH. No more freaking stonewalling.

The FISA warrants and what was collected will be reviewed I am sure. If the first warrant was broad then denied and the second more narrowed then what was collected will tell the tale.
 

Tekate

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JoCoJenn|1488730259|4136760 said:
No, Obama cannot "order" it, but based on the case Mark Levin laid out this morning citing multiple left-wing media reports, I am hard-pressed to believe Obama did not know about this. :snooty:

Watch for yourself: http://video.foxnews.com/v/5348359459001/?#sp=show-clips


It doesn't matter if he knew or not, there was an investigation into the DNC being hacked by Russians, if this means somehow, someway, it was tapping into Trumps phones, etc to try and do something???? to stop Trump I can't see WHAT? what... this had nothing to do with Obama, it's about DNC hacking, and Trump should be ENCOURAGING our agencies root out anyone who assisted the Russians, he is a total tool.
 

jaaron

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I also assume that people understand, going into this discussion, that the warrant could well have been for surveillance on Russian targets and/or the activities of people who had previously left the campaign team? I don't think it's much of a secret Paul Mannafort and Roger Stone were people of interest.
 

AGBF

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redwood66|1488731688|4136767 said:
AGBF|1488731277|4136764 said:
JoCoJenn|1488730259|4136760 said:
No, Obama cannot "order" it, but based on the case Mark Levin laid out this morning citing multiple left-wing media reports, I am hard-pressed to believe Obama did not know about this. :snooty:

Watch for yourself: http://video.foxnews.com/v/5348359459001/?#sp=show-clips

What's your point, Jenn? The FBI got warrants as it was supposed to-according to this bombastic "reporter" you scrounged up-and a court gave them the warrant because they believed there were foreign agents in Trump Tower. Good enough for me. I think the FBI and the CIA should have told the President about possible foreign espionage. The Federal Court ordered the warrants, not President Obama.

That was not her point I don't think Deb. The point is he very well knew that this was going on. The optics of a sitting president's intelligence agencies spying on an opposing party's candidate and then nominee is terribly frightening. Kind of like a sitting president's surrogates breaking into the opposing party's office.

Please do not make me laugh. How frightening is that when what we actually face is the possibility of a foreign government's sending in agents to plot with a candidate running for president of the United States.

AGBF :angryfire:
 

Tekate

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redwood66|1488734628|4136793 said:
E B|1488734461|4136791 said:
I'm seeing a lot of assumptions thrown out from the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd, FWIW.

Are presidents generally kept in the dark about investigations into possible treason against the country they lead?

I am sorry but if a sitting president's intelligence agencies spying on an opposing party's candidate and then nominee does not give you any pause then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

There is not concrete proof that this was nefarious on Obama's part (since he didn't even ask or the FISA)... if this were Romney or Rubio I'd be concerned but then again, those people wouldn't be tweeting batshit bullshit. Trump is untrustworthy, I can't convince you of this, because you are biased to the right, I am biased to the left, but at this point, I want Pence, I can't stand him, he's evil incarnate against women, but he would be a heap bit better than this miserable excuse for a human being..

I guess the Russians have screwed with us so much they have gotten their wish, a lunatic at the helm.
 

lovedogs

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jaaron|1488737343|4136818 said:
I also assume that people understand, going into this discussion, that the warrant could well have been for surveillance on Russian targets and/or the activities of people who had previously left the campaign team? I don't think it's much of a secret Paul Mannafort and Roger Stone were people of interest.

I think this is a very important point. IF the wire tapping did happen, it would require a warrant that was approved. Meaning there was reason to suspect wrong-doing. So honestly, it's WORSE for SCROTUS if his allegations are accurate, because it means that an independent judge decided it was warranted.

As EB said above:
It's not "spying" on an opposing party's candidate for sh*ts and giggles, red. For a FISA warrant, there had to have been probable cause, in this case, to believe there was collusion with a foreign power, and it can't come from the president. For it to be as politicized as you're implying, the entire IC would be 'compromised.'
 

jaaron

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Louise Mensch, who broke the entire FISA story months ago, and who has been speculating that Saturday's tweet storm transpired because 45 learned there is something coming, has tweeted this. Could get interesting.

Foreign intelligence services have handed over recordings and transcripts of Trump camp colluding with Russia, and info is new.
124 replies 768 retweets 1,030 likes
Reply 124 Retweet 768
Like 1.0K
Louise Mensch‏Verified account @LouiseMensch 44m44 minutes ago
More
All the info coming out of the IC on Trump camp recorded collusion with Russia has come out post Jan 20th. See Reuters.
 

the_mother_thing

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I don't read Breitfart. I do on occasion listen to Levin because that man knows the constitution so well he can recite it blindfolded from memory even surrounded by an auditorium full of screaming, protesting lefties.

EB: I didn't say and am not saying Obama was 'guilty', but I do think he knew about it because his statement was very carefully worded to avoid 'denying any knowledge'. If he truly had 'zero knowledge', why not say that for the record, then go back to his golf game?

I am all for investigations into whatever is being alleged regarding Russia, whatever the Obama administration may have known/done, etc. as well as Chump's camp ... but in the mean time, the nation MUST continue to operate, people still need to do their non-investigative jobs, politicians on both sides need to STFU and get to work vs grandstand on every news channel every 5 minutes, and we need to get cabinet appointments through and in place. Otherwise, we will be so far buried in this BS, we will miss a Trojan horse being opened up while we clip our toe nails with NO leaders in place to deal with it.
 

ruby59

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E B|1488734873|4136797 said:
redwood66|1488734628|4136793 said:
E B|1488734461|4136791 said:
I'm seeing a lot of assumptions thrown out from the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd, FWIW.

Are presidents generally kept in the dark about investigations into possible treason against the country they lead?

I am sorry but if a sitting president's intelligence agencies spying on an opposing party's candidate and then nominee does not give you any pause then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

It's not "spying" on an opposing party's candidate for sh*ts and giggles, red. For a FISA warrant, there had to have been probable cause, in this case, to believe there was collusion with a foreign power, and it can't come from the president. For it to be as politicized as you're implying, the entire IC would be 'compromised.'

If Trump has enough proof to launch an investigation, by all means. But independent investigations into BOTH. No more freaking stonewalling.


Yes, it is very easy to get these warrants.

So why was the first one turned down?
 

jaaron

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JoCoJenn|1488740582|4136842 said:
I don't read Breitfart. I do on occasion listen to Levin because that man knows the constitution so well he can recite it blindfolded from memory even surrounded by an auditorium full of screaming, protesting lefties.

EB: I didn't say and am not saying Obama was 'guilty', but I do think he knew about it because his statement was very carefully worded to avoid 'denying any knowledge'. If he truly had 'zero knowledge', why not say that for the record, then go back to his golf game?

I am all for investigations into whatever is being alleged regarding Russia, whatever the Obama administration may have known/done, etc. as well as Chump's camp ... but in the mean time, the nation MUST continue to operate, people still need to do their non-investigative jobs, politicians on both sides need to STFU and get to work vs grandstand on every news channel every 5 minutes, and we need to get cabinet appointments through and in place. Otherwise, we will be so far buried in this BS, we will miss a Trojan horse being opened up while we clip our toe nails with NO leaders in place to deal with it.

Which is exactly why if 45 really believes he's been done a grave injustice by the Obama administration, he should shut the hell up and mobilise the people necessary to investigate. Not send a series of accusatory and inflammatory tweets at 6 am.

I do not agree with everything Obama said or did by a long shot, but he had an incredible amount of dung thrown at him (quite a lot of it by Cheeto, in fact), and you didn't see him acting like that.

Shut up and do your job, Trump, and then maybe people *can* judge you on the merits.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
22,146
ruby59|1488740772|4136845 said:
Yes, it is very easy to get these warrants.

Really? Ever tried?

incredulous-look-sm.jpg
 
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