Pre-owned rings: How far off retail pricing should one expect for bigger stones?

[ksluice]

Understanding there are about as many variables involved as possible, I am trying to figure out if a ring we’ve fallen for to celebrate my 50th is a bad buy or a good one. The main diamond is big (over 4.5 cts) and from what I can tell without seeing it in person (photos and 2 videos, one showing different lighting situations) it looks decently cut, and the form of cut is to my liking (square emerald with big windmills ). It has a GIA certificate, so I am pretty confident about the color and clarity being accurately, as well as the polish.

The thing is if I look at the PS price tables, I don’t think this stone is much below retail. It is a bit hard to know because there aren’t a ton of comps on the price table, and the ones there that can be tracked down have things like visible inclusions even in the VS range, where this one is eye clean.

It leaves me all in a muddle, is it true that the used discount on larger stones gets smaller because it can be just be sold as an unmounted stone? (This is what the vendor told us when we offered a price about 15% off the list).

TIA for your thoughts and much appreciated advise.

 

[kenny]

Diamonds are not a commodity, like gold, with one single fixed and universally agreed to price.
Every ounce of 99.9999% pure gold is identical, but every diamond is unique.

Then, every seller can "list" their prices at whatever (s)he wants.

Buyer beware ... as learn more you'll spot the many ways in which vendors vary.
The more you learn the more you'll discover how apples to apples comparisons between diamond vendors are not really apples to apples.

 

[ksluice]

Thank you Kenny! Those are wise words, and of course the main way a buyer can beware is by seeing the actual stone, especially with asschers. Being stuck on the Canadian side of the border has made our search very protracted and probably more about digital window shopping than actual seeing. I know we’re close to the border opening, and I should be fatalistic about the right stone being the one we can actually see with our own eyes whenever that becomes possible

 

[Dancing Fire]

It leaves me all in a muddle, is it true that the used discount on larger stones gets smaller because it can be just be sold as an unmounted stone? (This is what the vendor told us when we offered a price about 15% off the list).

The first thing you should do is ask for a updated GIA report to be sure that the stone is not damaged.

 

[ksluice]

Thank you for that. The current report is from 2018, I didn’t even think to ask for an updated one.

 

[lulu_ma]

I don’t know the color or clarity on the stone you are considering but I just saw this stunner on Insta. It’s larger but a K color-maybe you can use it as a comp...

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[lovedogs]

I agree with others. Updated GIA report for sure

 

[ksluice]

I don’t know the color or clarity on the stone you are considering but I just saw this stunner on Insta. It’s larger but a K color-maybe you can use it as a comp...

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OOOh, isn’t that sparkly and pretty! That is actually a perfect comp. The cut is different (different crown proportions and no culet), but same color, size and clarity is just one off. Pretty much same price too. That is super helpful thanks LuLu_ma!!

 

[ksluice]

I agree with others. Updated GIA report for sure

I’m going to ask them for it. I think they’ll respond with an appraisal they got done a couple months ago, but I suspect the appraisers who are a small local shop are relying heavily on the cert. I’ll be interested to hear what they say!

 

[lovedogs]

I’m going to ask them for it. I think they’ll respond with an appraisal they got done a couple months ago, but I suspect the appraisers who are a small local shop are relying heavily on the cert. I’ll be interested to hear what they say!

An appraisal doesnt help in this case. You want to know that the stone is in the same condition it was when certified

 

[lulu_ma]

OOOh, isn’t that sparkly and pretty! That is actually a perfect comp. The cut is different (different crown proportions and no culet), but same color, size and clarity is just one off. Pretty much same price too. That is super helpful thanks LuLu_ma!!

Glad that the comp is helpful.

<3 the London stone!

Here's another slightly smaller asscher I VVS1

3.91ct Asscher Cut Diamond, GIA I VVS1

What a gorgeous diamond! This asscher cut diamond has a beautiful make, with tryly crips facets and so much life and personality to her. Great specs to boot - she would make for a stunning piece of jewelry. Diamond measures 9.06 x 8.65 x 6.06 mm GIA Link Here

www.jewelsbygrace.com

 

[ksluice]

Glad that the comp is helpful.

<3 the London stone!

Here's another slightly smaller asscher I VVS1

3.91ct Asscher Cut Diamond, GIA I VVS1

What a gorgeous diamond! This asscher cut diamond has a beautiful make, with tryly crips facets and so much life and personality to her. Great specs to boot - she would make for a stunning piece of jewelry. Diamond measures 9.06 x 8.65 x 6.06 mm GIA Link Here

www.jewelsbygrace.com

Yes it was totally helpful and the videos of the London stone are so with the beautiful sky blue flashes! Yummy.

This is another great comp and super helpful, and I know folks trust Jewels by Grace, so that is also very useful in my thinking. Thank you Lulu_ma!

I’m calling today to see about the GIA re-certification, but I have more confidence know with all al the advice from folks here. It’s hard to take the emotion out of a decision which is kinda inherently emotional

 

[ksluice]

An appraisal doesnt help in this case. You want to know that the stone is in the same condition it was when certified

Heard!! and thank you

 

[denverappraiser]

Any diamond that has been mounted and worn is a candidate for a new lab report unless you're talking about I-1 or I-2 clarity already. If the seller is a private party, assume it's been mounted and worn. That's why they bought it. You don't know where it's been since 2018 and yes, it matters.

A valuation report from their guy is not a very useful document. It's definitely not a substitute for a current lab report. An inspection report from your guy might be but that depends on who you are using and what you want to know. You should be the client, not them.

'Used' does not produce a discount, at least not directly. Private party sellers produce a discount. That's because most customers, especially customers buying expensive things like this, prefer to buy from dealers. It's more trustworthy. There are more legal protections. It's easier. They tend to have better selections. Terms and conditions are better, sometimes by quite a bit. How much this is all worth is up to you but yes, the percentage goes down as the price point goes up. Often it's invisible to the buyer. In the $500k+ range, for example, it's almost always a consignment deal between the dealer and some owner that you'll never meet. The seller is getting a commission, and usually, you have no way to know how much. Frankly, I don't see that it matters beyond academic interest.

 

[ksluice]

Any diamond that has been mounted and worn is a candidate for a new lab report unless you're talking about I-1 or I-2 clarity already. If the seller is a private party, assume it's been mounted and worn. That's why they bought it. You don't know where it's been since 2018 and yes, it matters.

A valuation report from their guy is not a very useful document. It's definitely not a substitute for a current lab report. An inspection report from your guy might be but that depends on who you are using and what you want to know. You should be the client, not them.

'Used' does not produce a discount, at least not directly. Private party sellers produce a discount. That's because most customers, especially customers buying expensive things like this, prefer to buy from dealers. It's more trustworthy. There are more legal protections. It's easier. They tend to have better selections. Terms and conditions are better, sometimes by quite a bit. How much this is all worth is up to you but yes, the percentage goes down as the price point goes up. Often it's invisible to the buyer. In the $500k+ range, for example, it's almost always a consignment deal between the dealer and some owner that you'll never meet. The seller is getting a commission, and usually, you have no way to know how much. Frankly, I don't see that it matters beyond academic interest.

Thank you for those very helpful thoughts. The seller is a jewelry store who has been in business for a long time. They are discussed on PS, but not one of the preferred vendors. Some folks seem to love them, some less so. Definitely wouldn’t be confident making a purchase like this from a private party, so I understand your points about how the “used” doesn’t mean a discount as much as the purchase path. Thank you for explaining it that way, as it makes sense to me.

SO, they said if it was really being pushed for they would look at sending it back to GIA for a recert, but their thinking was that a 2018 cert was very comparatively new as they suspect the ring hasn’t been worn, and that their appraiser/lab (NAGL) had done a check a of the stone in March which involved both a comparison to the GIA cert to confirm that this was the same diamond as the cert and a full inspection to ensure that it was in the same condition. That March report did not unmount the stone, but their feeling was that they had done the due diligence we were asking for already, and the risk from the unmounting/remounting could introduce new doubt about condition. That said, if we really wanted it the recertification they could facilitate it, but it would be at our expense and with the unmounting and remounting would likely cost around $600. With the advice from this thread in my ears, I found that response disappointing, but perhaps not fully lacking in any logic.

On a more positive note, they said that with a refundable deposit, they would be willing to hold the stone for up to 90 days to allow us to get there to see it (hopefully the border will open by then), and that if we decided to purchase a 60 day no-questions ask return policy would still apply. So…hmmm.

 

[denverappraiser]

I don't think you've told us what sort of grade you're expecting but any 4.5carat above terrible is going to be quite a bit of money. Maybe I missed it in the long thread. Frankly, $600 seems reasonable. I'm surprised they haven't already done it and just included it in the price. It's like a car dealer paying some guy on the lot to detail the car. Bet they do for the next guy if you don't end up buying it.

You're outside of the US and the dealer is here? May I ask where are you? Is there going to be an import tax issue?

That said, what's your concern?

 

[flyingpig]

This is a tough one.
If it gets re-graded with a new report, the diamond is now "new" with guaranteed quality. You will not be able to negociate. Do you want to buy it as is for 15% discount, which is a huge saving? However, you are spending alot of money. You probably want to pay full retail price for guaranteed quality.

If we are talking 1ct I VS, spend $4k and buy preowned 20% off instead of spending $5k on a new one. If it is damaged, well... A lessen learned and you get pissed off and move on.

But for a 4.5carat diamond, I don know...

 

[ksluice]

In fact, I expect that the recertification would just confirm that they’re being honest about the diamond. Having that confirmation one way or another makes the difference, though. I originally posted because from what I could discern there wasn’t really a price difference between this “used” stone and what I could find in the PS price charts, and that confused me because I thought it should/would be otherwise. The diamonds that Lulu_ma posted pretty much confirmed that used stones do seem to retail at the same level as new stones (from the PS charts), and then your post provided the “why”.

I think my worry is in two parts, 1. whether or not the price we’re paying is fair. I feel like the first part has been answered by this thread, and I am so grateful to this community for that. I think we’re in the realm of fair. I mean it could be a bit off but I feel good that we’re within 10% of what is fair given everything. And 2. that the cut isn’t as good as I hope/think it is based on what I’ve been able to see. That worry still exists but I figure we can’t get closer to knowing til we see it in person, given its an asscher and all.

Yes, we’re in Canada, but diamond shopping is so so much better in the US. Luckily duty isn’t an issue on jewelry made in the US, and tax here is about the same as where we’d buy from, so all that ends up a wash.

 

[distracts]

This is a tough one.
If it gets re-graded with a new report, the diamond is now "new" with guaranteed quality. You will not be able to negociate. Do you want to buy it as is for 15% discount, which is a huge saving? However, you are spending alot of money. You probably want to pay full retail price for guaranteed quality.

If we are talking 1ct I VS, spend $4k and buy preowned 20% off instead of spending $5k on a new one. If it is damaged, well... A lessen learned and you get pissed off and move on.

But for a 4.5carat diamond, I don know...

Yeah, my suspicion is any stone that gets regraded is going to be sold as new, so if you’re getting any wiggle room on price from full retail now, you won’t be if it’s regraded.

I would just make sure there’s a return period and bring it to a good appraiser to have them check it.

 

[lulu_ma]

In fact, I expect that the recertification would just confirm that they’re being honest about the diamond. Having that confirmation one way or another makes the difference, though. I originally posted because from what I could discern there wasn’t really a price difference between this “used” stone and what I could find in the PS price charts, and that confused me because I thought it should/would be otherwise. The diamonds that Lulu_ma posted pretty much confirmed that used stones do seem to retail at the same level as new stones (from the PS charts), and then your post provided the “why”.

I think my worry is in two parts, 1. whether or not the price we’re paying is fair. I feel like the first part has been answered by this thread, and I am so grateful to this community for that. I think we’re in the realm of fair. I mean it could be a bit off but I feel good that we’re within 10% of what is fair given everything. And 2. that the cut isn’t as good as I hope/think it is based on what I’ve been able to see. That worry still exists but I figure we can’t get closer to knowing til we see it in person, given its an asscher and all.

Yes, we’re in Canada, but diamond shopping is so so much better in the US. Luckily duty isn’t an issue on jewelry made in the US, and tax here is about the same as where we’d buy from, so all that ends up a wash.

Well now I’m just finding large K color emerald cuts everywhere. Here’s another comp!

Jack Weir & Sons Art Deco Inspired GIA 4.05 Carat Emerald Cut Diamond Platinum Engagement Ring

Are you looking for a statement step cut engagement ring? Consider this striking Art Deco Inspired GIA 4.05 carat Emerald Cut Diamond Platinum Engagement Ring. This is an engagement ring you would expect a celebrity to own, and now it can be yours! The center diamond is GIA certified emerald cut...

jackweirandsons.com

 

[ksluice]

@lulu_ma, @distracts & @flyingpig —thank you suggesting for that additional route (and the additional comp. What delicious art deco-ness!!!). This community is so amazing. Thank you for thinking about my questions and sharing your time and energy and expertise with me! That goes for you too @denverappraiser, @lovedogs and @Dancing Fire and @kenny

 

[LilAlex]

am trying to figure out if a ring we’ve fallen for to celebrate my 50th is a bad buy or a good one. The main diamond is big (over 4.5 cts)

Diamonds are way more commoditized than any other stones. Use the SEARCH feature at the top of this page to scour the ~ third-of-a-million RBC diamonds with all parameters and price. Look for 4.5-ct comparables.

I did not see your ring but I doubt the rest of the ring is > $10,000 of the price (I mean unless it is flanked by a pair of 3-ct stones, etc.).

There are no bargains in the second-hand market; however, you may be less taken advantage of than in a boutique that offers you a glass of white wine while you browse.

 

[prs]

I may be wrong but I think the PS diamond price data is taken from all the diamonds listed on the PS diamond search tool. These diamonds are listed by on-line vendors such as Blue Nile and James Allan, and are already at a considerable discount compared to most brick and mortar jewelry stores.

If the price of your diamond is competitive with similar diamonds listed on PS then you are likely getting a pretty good deal.

 

[ksluice]

Thank you @LilAlex and @prs—your points are also helpful, especially remembering that the charts are already on the lean side of pricing.

Given the discussion and the option to secure the ring with a deposit until we can get there, and the 60 day guarantee if we decide to pull the trigger.

We’ll look for a certified gemologist/appraiser to evaluate the ring if we go forward with the purchase. Here is a photo of the ring.

 

[ringo865]

OH MY GAWD!! I think i might have just become deceased looking at that RING!!! I mean, WOW, I wanna do over on my big five oh!

 

[ksluice]

@ringo865 , Yeah the pandemic seems to have given our whole family some major YOLO. Plus, I can’t get over the windmills, or the geometry.

I keep telling myself, we’ve just put a hold on it, be logical, but even the store owner said “there is no logic behind buying a ring like this.”

Anyway, in a month or two, once the border opens, maybe I’ll be able to post again with my own photos.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

You said, "The diamonds that Lulu_ma posted pretty much confirmed that used stones do seem to retail at the same level as new stones (from the PS charts), and then your post provided the “why”."

Many diamond rings Grace has are on consignment. Many times prices are negotiable. So in no way would I consider the price listed on her site the price you actually pay. I would always offer less on a second hand consignment piece and even some jewelry stores will adjust a price on a diamond as well. You can't exactly bargain on price with online vendors because they are already lower than retail brick and mortar stores in some cases, but IG sellers, consignment sellers and independent jewelry stores may accept a lower offer. I would absolutely not offer their asking price. Maybe go to 10% off and say final offer.

I don't see any reason to use another appraiser if NAGL is a respected appraiser. You can do price comps yourself (appraisals are almost always inflated). The hard part is deciding about sending the stone to GIA. I am not sure I'd want it unmounted, and I have read that both GIA and AGS are taking weeks to grade and return a stone.

 

[lovedogs]

Thank you @LilAlex and @prs—your points are also helpful, especially remembering that the charts are already on the lean side of pricing.

Given the discussion and the option to secure the ring with a deposit until we can get there, and the 60 day guarantee if we decide to pull the trigger.

We’ll look for a certified gemologist/appraiser to evaluate the ring if we go forward with the purchase. Here is a photo of the ring.

Oh my FREAKING god. That is a breathtaking stone. I would be super tempted if I were you. Honestly if I had the funds I would go for it. It's just perfect

 

[Resonance.Of.Life]

You said, "The diamonds that Lulu_ma posted pretty much confirmed that used stones do seem to retail at the same level as new stones (from the PS charts), and then your post provided the “why”."

Many diamond rings Grace has are on consignment. Many times prices are negotiable. So in no way would I consider the price listed on her site the price you actually pay. I would always offer less on a second hand consignment piece and even some jewelry stores will adjust a price on a diamond as well. You can't exactly bargain on price with online vendors because they are already lower than retail brick and mortar stores in some cases, but IG sellers, consignment sellers and independent jewelry stores may accept a lower offer. I would absolutely not offer their asking price. Maybe go to 10% off and say final offer.

I don't see any reason to use another appraiser if NAGL is a respected appraiser. You can do price comps yourself (appraisals are almost always inflated). The hard part is deciding about sending the stone to GIA. I am not sure I'd want it unmounted, and I have read that both GIA and AGS are taking weeks to grade and return a stone.

Obviously, this comes with the disclaimer that this applies for highly sought after antique cuts. I have regretted not buying every single antique diamond that made my heart flutter because I have not ever found another like it.

I actually sold Isla for more than what I bought it for considering rarity of faceting, size and color range. I would not have accepted an offer less than what it was briefly listed for (I think less than 48 hrs). Finding a like stone in this market that is an actual antique pretty much is non-existent right now. Heck, finding my replacement 4-5 carat antique cushion or antique oval in a GIA H range has taken more than 8 months already. In fact my previous OEC that I sold through consignment with Grace also sold for my asking in less than 24 hrs. I know what I have and I know how hard it is to find diamonds that suit my fancy.

Finding an antique stone with the same qualities and faceting is pretty much hard to do. I think in MRBs I would concede what you wrote is true or any other widely available stone.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Obviously, this comes with the disclaimer that this applies for highly sought after antique cuts. I have regretted not buying every single antique diamond that made my heart flutter because I have not ever found another like it.

I actually sold Isla for more than what I bought it for considering rarity of faceting, size and color range. I would not have accepted an offer less than what it was briefly listed for (I think less than 48 hrs). Finding a like stone in this market that is an actual antique pretty much is non-existent right now. Heck, finding my replacement 4-5 carat antique cushion or antique oval in a GIA H range has taken more than 8 months already. In fact my previous OEC that I sold through consignment with Grace also sold for my asking in less than 24 hrs. I know what I have and I know how hard it is to find diamonds that suit my fancy.

Finding an antique stone with the same qualities and faceting is pretty much hard to do. I think in MRBs I would concede what you wrote is true or any other widely available stone.

Oh yes, I definitely agree that with rare and highly desirable stones (particularly antique cuts), people are more likely to get asking price (let's face it, you've had some awesome stones!!!). Then sometimes a desirable stone is priced on the high side and will sit awhile, and then some sellers are willing to go down in price, especially if they have found another item they want to buy. All that is from knowing people who have bought and sold on consignment. But you are right that it really depends on the rarity and desirability of the stone and the patience of the seller in getting whatever their price target is. Pricing on consignment antique stones can also vary based on what the owner paid for the diamond in the first place.

Since we can't see the cert of the diamond above, I am just guessing, but it doesn't look like an antique asscher to me. It looks like a beautifully cut modern asscher which shouldn't quite carry the price premium of a beautifully cut antique one which would be even more rare. It's also K color. So I am not seeing why it should necessarily sell at a full retail price if it is a second hand ring, although since it is a nice asscher, it probably wouldn't be discounted much. The other factor we don't know is how long the ring has been for sale (unless I missed that in posts above). Newly listed items are less likely to be discounted than ones that have been sitting awhile. I really think her price comps need to be from modern asschers if this is a modern asscher, and then figure out a fair offer.