Poll: Is it ethical/do you feel comfortable having a jeweler recreate a ring you like but can''t aff

[noobie]

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On 7/17/2004 9:32:24 AM fire&ice wrote:





I relay my experience because some of these designers are retailing *their* settings at an unwarrented premium. My setting is a classic (read copy: read inspired by) basket set center stone w/ two side tapered baguettes. Nice quality - feels good on the hand - but nothing spectacular. And truley derivative. In my opinion, if these 'designers' can't compete competitvely in price *or* create some really inspirational designs then I don't feel sorry for them losing sales.

This is a classic example of why a consumer would look to a craftsman to make *a* setting for them. Nice to patronize the individual artistic crafts-person.



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Did you ever post pics? Is this the famous 3 c with blue fluorescence? If not love to see it.

 

[barkus13]

I find it very disturbing that so many feel comfortable with ripping off a designer. Recently I came across this very choice. I found a jewelry design I loved on a website on line but 1500 miles away. My dilema was not so much pricing but distance. I contacted a very highly respected local designer to see if she would custom make the ring. She agreed with no questions as to where I obtained the photo. It didn't take me long in my own mind to decide it was wrong, totally wrong to go ahead and have another goldsmith copy the original designer. I wanted to feel good, totally good when I looked at my ring, which I would have for many years to come. I made the decision to go with the original designer and couldn't be happier. I have had several strangers while traveling comment on the ring and ask if it was the designer. That's how unique the design is. I would not have felt good to say no it is a knock-off. And if I had made the other choice....that's exactly what it would have been. I don't have a lot of jewelry but the few pieces I do have are unique and made by the original designers.

 

[starfire]

Bravo Sally,

I am glad you made this decision, and it obviously paid off for you because you can say with pride where you bought your jewelry from and who designed it.

I share your concern about the lack of care given by some people here to the thought of ripping off a designer. It is as though they think it is somehow alright if other people do it too.

It does tell you about the need to have integrity in one's character, something all too often lacking.

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On 7/17/2004 10:29:13 AM barkus13 wrote:

I find it very disturbing that so many feel comfortable with ripping off a designer. Recently I came across this very choice. I found a jewelry design I loved on a website on line but 1500 miles away. My dilema was not so much pricing but distance. I contacted a very highly respected local designer to see if she would custom make the ring. She agreed with no questions as to where I obtained the photo. It didn't take me long in my own mind to decide it was wrong, totally wrong to go ahead and have another goldsmith copy the original designer. I wanted to feel good, totally good when I looked at my ring, which I would have for many years to come. I made the decision to go with the original designer and couldn't be happier. I have had several strangers while traveling comment on the ring and ask if it was the designer. That's how unique the design is. I would not have felt good to say no it is a knock-off. And if I had made the other choice....that's exactly what it would have been. I don't have a lot of jewelry but the few pieces I do have are unique and made by the original designers.

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[fire&ice]

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On 7/17/2004 10:22:25 AM noobie wrote:




quote]did you ever post pics? is this the famous 3 c with blue fluorescence? if not love to see it.
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Yep, it's somewhere in the Show me the ring forum. But, you could find it easier in the FAQ section until "I color stones in Platinum".

I don't know about famous, infamous perhaps. Didn't you know I was a "tacky hoochie" for having such a big diamond.

And, for the record, I do like my Vatche setting. I'm just amazed at the staggering prices of *all* of the designer settings. For that matter, designer stuff in general. It makes no difference to me to say that my setting is a "Vatche". It only makes a difference that it is of very good quality & design. I couldn't care less about the name.

Edited to add: though it's always a good idea not to obilterate any designer signature for the future. This can be done when sizing the ring.

 

[get_cut_not_ripped]

I second that....I just purchased this Verragio setting b/c my girlfriend loved it. I found copies elsewhere, and believe me, at $3190 w/ 0.70 H/VS stones, I don't feel it's worth it. Unfortunately, this one was an older version of the same style, which I had posted about before. It has a raised stamp on the outside of the shank of the ring, with the Verragio logo. Hence, the purchase of the authentic one, as no one copies that feature. Was it worth the money? not at all. Was it worth getting what makes her happy because I care so much? Absolutely.

 

[JHeebner]

Vatche is a frequently mentioned name on this site, in terms of favorites for bridal jewelry. I don't know why. Their "designs" seem kinda' common, sort of like what the rest of the world is already doing/has done in bridal.
Some folks I find exciting as far as bridal designers: Ritani, in particular, his "Endless Love" Collection; Rina Limor, small design firm in New York, fresh classic-looking pieces, always with a twist; Gumuchian Fils, beautiful, delicate, sometimes innovative; Norman Silverman, stunning looks & craftmanship; Erica Courtney, dainty, gorgeous, uniquely her own look (though some try to knock her off, they can't seem to get the look quite right), and for her dazzling pieces, her prices are sky high; Daniel K., impressive works for his age (30); of course, these are all my personal favorites that I'm thinking of now. And there are so many other bridal jewelry designers that deserve credit for other reasons, and there are many more still to meet.

 

[Shay37]

Ritani is indeed one of my favorites as well. However, the Endless Love collection can only be sold as a unit. (their diamond) A lot of us are here at Pricescope because we are much more picky about our diamonds than that. (okay we're cut lunatics) Only the best quality cut will do. I do not want to leave that up to someone else to decide. (Unless I trust them implicitly, such as the opinions of the vendors here and a few others) Thank you anyway.

Shay

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/17/2004 3:06:08 PM JHeebner wrote:

Vatche is a frequently mentioned name on this site, in terms of favorites for bridal jewelry. I don't know why. Their 'designs' seem kinda' common, sort of like what the rest of the world is already doing/has done in bridal.
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Yeah, but their quality is pretty high. And, I like classic simple designs for rings, especially engagement rings. Heck, I'm a big fan of the four prong tiffany style setting. Some of the other more fussy settings take away from the center stone.

And, in the immortal words of my then to be "Your gonna *look* engaged". This was in a response my liking the three stone ring (a rather novelty 20+ years ago). Most everyone in my age group had a simple solitaire. As I noted in another thread, the plethera of setting choices were not available back then.

That Verragio setting is quite classic & nice. And, in the end, it is all about what she wants.

 

[Mara]

Woo I'm busy for a few days and look what happens!

I don't even want to bother reading all the responses, 6 pages?

Yes I feel comfortable replicating a ring. I wanted a Michael B ring but we didn't want to spend $2500 for .40ctw of diamonds that weren't even safely set into the ring. We had the same thing custom made with almost 2ce amount of melee in a safer setting for less $$. My ring ends up being slightly different but I would also never tell anyone it was a Michael B. I'd rather say it was custom, it sounds more EXPENSIVE. Hahaha..




Anyway, I saw people mentioning trademarks, infringements etc. Let's take Adobe for an example. I worked there a longgg time ago and I have friends who do now. My friend can get me the Photoshop package through Adobe's store for $40. It retails for what? $800? Yes research costs and the fine tuning, bug fixes etc do cost the company but they make ridiculous amounts of money off every software package they sell because they did it right. So for every download off Napster or whoever is the newest thing vs those who buy it in a store for $800...it all evens out. Personally I think anyone who buys software nowadays and pays retail is insane and should have their head examined. It goes against my grain to pay any significant amount of money for a CD with some stuff on it that costs all of $1.00 max to produce now. So when do their costs balance out against what it's really worth?




When I was wedding shopping, I found that many designers don't have pictures of their gowns online or let you take them in the store because they are afraid you can replicate it from a picture. So what's to stop me from using my cell phone to take a picture? Or using a great memory to build it from scratch elsewhere without a picture? Let's be realistic, people!!




Replicas are the most sincere form of flattery. I'm not an artist nor would I ever have the patience to be one plus I like to EAT, so I can't really put myself in their shoes. But I do think most art in any way shape or form (rings, clothes, pictures) is severely marked up and most people do not want to pay markups. See a great picture in a restaurant for sale for $2500? When it looks like some kid went nuts with the crayolas? Please! Why should all the artist's failed paintings be amortized into the cost of this one I like? Again when does the cost balance out with the real value? This also relates to diamonds of course.

I won't be a hypocrite and say that it's okay to knock off other people's ideas but not mine. If I came up with a design or a picture or something, I would wholeheartedly expect people to knock it off or try to steal it. That's human nature!

Plus I'd probably just be really flattered...just like Garry!

 

[Superidealist]

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On 7/17/2004 7:52:38 PM Mara wrote:

So what's to stop me from using my cell phone to take a picture?
Hopefully, your conscience.

 

[Mara]

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On 7/17/2004 9:03:26 PM Superidealist wrote:

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On 7/17/2004 7:52:38 PM Mara wrote:





So what's to stop me from using my cell phone to take a picture?




Hopefully, your conscience.
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Such wit. Well, I'd have to have one first. In this case I actually snuck my camera in and took pictures of myself in the mirror while the salesgal was finding me another dress and my friend was keeping watch outside the room. My intention was never to knock it off (what a pain to knock off a wedding dress from just a picture!) but rather have something to look at later when final decision time came. But no way was I leaving without that picture. In the end I didn't buy the dress, it was too expensive for my taste. But I got tons of satisfaction from the clandestine picture.

 

[starfire]

Hi Mara,

Am I correct to deduce from your reasoning that that you would find it acceptable to do the following:

* it is alright to copy designs, and not credit the author
* it is alright to make and buy counterfeit products (based on your logic that it would "enhance" the brand, and make the brand owner flattered)
* it is alright, for example, to photocopy an entire book at Borders and read the copy at home for free
* it is alright to encourage DVD pirates to sell more pirated stuff, and you will support such vendors
* you would encourage people to record radio music, and share it will all their friends (bugger the recording artists who would still have to pay rent)

Would it be too far to deduce the next level of activity based on your logic that it would then be ok to:

* buy a carton of toothpaste, squeeze them dry and store it somewhere and return the carton within 30 days for a full refund.
* steal packets of sugar and cream from MacDonald's
* or worse, steal something from a store because it is insane to pay retail price for it (and they make profit from someone else anyway)

My point is this. If someone supports the ripping off of ideas because she is too cheap to pay for it. What's going to stop her from stealing something else outright?

By justifying shady behaviour, it is all too easy to go down that slippery path to criminal acts.

Can you imagine a thief pleading to a judge: I stole that $5,000 watch not because I am poor but because there is no way I am going to pay retail price for it.

Can you imagine what will happen to the economy and to society if such thinking is allowed to spread? What happened to individual responsibility? Is this the state of your society that such thinking is considered right?

Not attacking you personally Mara, but I think that your reasoning is based on flawed logic and on personal gratification at the expense of other people's rights.

The good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one. But it seems to me that you propose this thinking: the good of ME outweighs the good of the many.

I have trouble understanding how a logical, intelligent (no doubt you are) and otherwise reasonable person can think this way.

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On 7/17/2004 7:52:38 PM Mara wrote:




Replicas are the most sincere form of flattery. I'm not an artist nor would I ever have the patience to be one plus I like to EAT, so I can't really put myself in their shoes. But I do think most art in any way shape or form (rings, clothes, pictures) is severely marked up and most people do not want to pay markups. See a great picture in a restaurant for sale for $2500? When it looks like some kid went nuts with the crayolas? Please! Why should all the artist's failed paintings be amortized into the cost of this one I like? Again when does the cost balance out with the real value? This also relates to diamonds of course.

I won't be a hypocrite and say that it's okay to knock off other people's ideas but not mine. If I came up with a design or a picture or something, I would wholeheartedly expect people to knock it off or try to steal it. That's human nature!

Plus I'd probably just be really flattered...just like Garry!

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[Mara]

Star you have obviously put alot of thought into this. I am not going to answer each of your points, it would take too long. Suffice it to say that I am the type of gal who will buy vases for a party at a favorite retail store, then after the party, return them for store credit. I get store credit for my next purchase, they get to resell the vases (cleaned of course!) to some other customer.

Call it whatever you want, but I'm a "creative" gal. I've bought brand new items at 1/3 price on eBay and returned them to the retail stores for full price store credit. The outlet store the eBay seller got it from wins, the eBay seller wins, and the retail store wins because they still get my business (and I usually spend more). The retail store's return policy supports this model by not requiring a receipt.




As for counterfeit products, software, music etc...yes I believe in all of that. I will still go to the store to buy a CD, but I just as easily have downloaded music online. I've bought a fake Kate Spade on the streets of NYC. The horror!

I don't think any of this makes me the type of person who is likely to suddenly begin STEALING the party vases or my treasured LV purses, but if that logic suits you...then by all means wear it!

 

[starfire]

Mara,

Thank you for offering all of us such an illuminating glimpse into your psyche. Fortunately, I had an early lunch, so I shan't be running to the toilet to offload it after this.

To quote Frasier Crane: even if I were to use a scanning electron microsope, I still wouldn't find my interest in understanding your line of thinking.

But thank you for giving me an insight into your thinking. There is certainly one good thing that came out of your post. It illuminates to me what I shall be teaching my kids not to be like, and you are one hell of an example to use for this.

 

[Jenn]

Starfire...get a grip

You make things WAY too personal and that is totally out of line on an internet message board that is supposed to be about diamonds.

 

[starfire]

OK, grip gotten. I will be glad to forget about this thread.

Clearly, talking about ethics makes no headway to some people here. Its like playing Beethoven to cows.

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On 7/18/2004 3:59:28 AM Jenn wrote:

Starfire...get a grip

You make things WAY too personal and that is totally out of line on an internet message board that is supposed to be about diamonds.----------------

 

[barkus13]

Wow...I am just flabergasted to read that there is no extent to what a person will do to save a buck. I can't even imagine doing some these things neverless admit that I've done them. I have a sister-in-law that is cheap and will go to great resolve, almost to a obsessive-compulsive extent to pinch a penny but even she would not do any of the things mentioned here. Buying on discount and returning retail....creative? It is stealing, get caught and see what a court says.

I have asked my daughters who are in their 20s some of the questions brought up in this forum and I thank god they have the morals instilled to know what is right or wrong.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/18/2004 5:23:18 AM starfire wrote:


Clearly, talking about ethics makes no headway to some people here. Its like playing Beethoven to cows.

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You make incredible value judgements. IMHO, holding someone in judgement while on your high horse is morally wrong. What special moral compass do you have to pass judgement on one's total life?

And - you know what - music soothes the savage beast. It's more productive to play Beethoven to cows than to listen to your moral indignation created in a virtual vaccum.

Having a civil discussion on trademark infringement & the ethics thereof is one thing. Raising the discussion to morally judge someone's life (or an entire country for that matter) is another.

 

[get_cut_not_ripped]

GEEZ, Star....

After reading the way you've shredded some people on this thread, I can't believe that you would hold yourself in so much higher regard than them. There's a balance in life, and if everyone were squeaky clean, and perfect, there would never be any conflict, and the whole world would just be one euphoric loony bin. People need that positive and negative interaction to exist.

On a lighter note, in the event the world ever experiences a severe diamond shortage, I feel sure we can ship a few box cars of coal over to Starfire, for a quick replenishment of the diamond supply....

 

[glitterata]

I agree with F&I. You can think what Mara does is wrong without calling her a cow. Insults have no place here.

That said, I also think that buying discounted merchandise on ebay and returning it to the store for retail is obviously wrong. It's stealing. Blaming it on the store's return policy is like stealing your neighbor's silverware and blaming her for not locking her door--or for not searching your handbag when you leave her house after dinner. Our society functions because we agree not to do things like stealing, even if we know we won't get caught.

 

[Mara]

Hee I knew my post would get a rise!

I figured I'd get some sort of moral judgement from Star. He did not disappoint.




I definitely do not agree about this being stealing and those examples Glitter are really not relevant...but differences of opinion is what makes the world go round! It's not really about saving a buck either because anyone who knows me would laugh if you called me cheap or a penny pincher. But there are times where I think...why do I need 8 vases? Honestly what am I going to do with them? I'll eventually give them to Goodwill, but wait the store policy supports a return ANYTIME for store credit regardless of product condition, so I'll do that!




As for the eBay items, they are brand new, foolishly marked down to an outlet. If the company's return policy supports a model such as the one I created, that's really their problem. If they sell brand new items that others are buying in their catalogs for 3x the price, I'm ecstatic I am the one to find the cheaper items and get the REAL value for them at the store. Esp since I know people who work for them, and I know the ridiculous markup they charge while they get the products for pennies on the dollar in India and other countries.

But change it a bit to...I bought it on eBay for a bed and realized I didn't like it after all. Would returning it then to the store be acceptable? Outlets do not take returns. eBay seller would not. What would highly moral people do since I am definitely not one of them?

Regardless of what some people think, this model comes in handy at times and I am thrilled to have thought of it. Greg was certainly impressed as well since then we spend less at this store so I am "allowed" more purchases. HAH!

 

[starfire]

Ha ha What would you have me do to the coal? sit on them?

Last time I checked I couldn't turn them to diamonds.

Ah well, I guess we are not going to be able to convince each other of our points of view. So let's leave it at that. I don't care to continue this discussion...

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On 7/18/2004 11:37:22 AM get_cut_not_ripped wrote:

GEEZ, Star....

After reading the way you've shredded some people on this thread, I can't believe that you would hold yourself in so much higher regard than them. There's a balance in life, and if everyone were squeaky clean, and perfect, there would never be any conflict, and the whole world would just be one euphoric loony bin. People need that positive and negative interaction to exist.

On a lighter note, in the event the world ever experiences a severe diamond shortage, I feel sure we can ship a few box cars of coal over to Starfire, for a quick replenishment of the diamond supply....

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[Superidealist]

"Model," huh? So that's what it's called these days.

 

[fire&ice]

A point of View?

That's just it. Isn't wasn't a point of view. It was a complete overall moral judgement of character. Big difference.

 

[Patty]

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On 7/18/2004 2:26:11 AM Mara wrote:



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Mara, surely you don't believe this. Everyone wins? You know who loses? The retail store owner loses. And the honest people in this world lose. Stores often institute stricter return policies to cut down on this kind of thing. They end up requiring honest purchasers to go through more of a hassle to return an item. And prices inevitably go up because of theft. Honest people end up paying more in the end.

 

[Mara]

This is really all such a gray-lined area and really not cut and dry. Patty, you note honest people. What exactly is an honest person? Is there a definition of such? Would an honest person return a $20 they see someone drop on the floor? Would an honest person go back to the store to return something that they accidentally left with (without paying?). Of course, and of course. I would do these things too though I'm quite obviously deemed morally bankrupt for my returning fetish.

The store owner does end up paying for theft. But I'm sorry, you will never convince me that this is theft. This retail store sells these items in their outlet stores for enough to cover their costs AND still make a profit. So they are already winning because they have their required profit margin. When the item is returned for a full price store credit, they are only out the cost of the next merchandise purchased (pennies) and most likely net more in revenue from marked-up additional retail purchases made at that time. So not only did they cover their costs and reap their profits the first time around in the outlet purchase, but by essentially giving a 'discount' on the store credit they got even more business.




I'm sorry, but I feel the onus is on the stores to close up their 'holes' if they are really concerned. Obviously they are not seeing a dearth of profits or else I'm sure their return policy would include not taking items back from outlet stores. If they really wanted to crack down, they'd nix the outlet stores selling the EXACT SAME merchandise that they sell in their retail stores and catalogs. Honestly, this is not rocket science for the big businesses and I know I'm not the only one who has noticed this discrepancy.




I am the queen of returns to favorite stores. Unworn clothes 2 years later for full store credit, pants I wore for a year where the zipper broke so they replace them for free, my infamous party vases.




Anyway, everyone may have a different opinion, but no one will convince me that returning items to the store they came from is so horribly wrong. Now if I was trying to pass them off as some other brand or store...heee. Oh the possibilities. Again, if the store feels a backlash, yes they will change their policies. As they should, I believe in strict policies for all, even 'honest' people.

Now I've gotta run and squeeze the toothpaste out of the tube, and then fill it with ice cream and return it to the store to get my $2.50 back.

 

[Patty]

Mara, I agree with you that it's a very gray area.

 

[just-ice]

Yes MMM, tell it to yourself more. Keep rationalising, like the way Bush repeats his mantra. I am sure that you convince yourself all the time."

"It's ok to rip someone else, it is cheaper alright."
"I had thought that Americans in general take a high moral stand on intellectual property. Perhaps I was mistaken. Then again, Abu Ghraib and Guantanemo showed the world the hypocrisy of American foreign policy, so why not intellectual property."
"Sorry, but I have to take a stand somewhere."
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So do I.......
How can you do this? What on God's good earth gives you the right to spew this garbage?? You have NO idea how we feel so how can you make such insulting comments?

"I have even seen people making drawings of our jewelry at our shop window, and not even bother to come in. I have also seen people snapping pictures of our jewelry with their mobile phones."
"Clearly, talking about ethics makes no headway to some people here. Its like playing Beethoven to cow's.
The fact is, the minute it is made public there is nothing on the market that won't be copied. A cake decorator in Florida was sued by Disney because she put Mickey Mouse on a cake...and rightfully so. Now the rule is that it is not copyright infringement if three things are changed...(hmmmmm what could Mickey have three of?)
I was at a craft show admiring a lamp and this lady(?) shoved in and blatantly wrote down how to make the item.
At a convention a gentleman created a system to handle a specific item with so much ease....another guy ordered his system....copied it and changed only one thing on it and sold it cheaper...
Food is copied, as are cars, houses, fabric patterns, jewelry designs....anything. It is the way it is, right or wrong.Companies want to give their customers the flavor of the year.
I had a patent stolen from me by the lawyer I hired to file....and the device is still used today.
Right or wrong.....it is the way it is.....but please don't bring all your venom to a this board.
Discussions are great....but your attacks are way out of line and the politics you brought here are seriously misplaced.... " OK, grip gotten. I will be glad to forget about this thread. " Me too....manners please to go along with your high morals.

fire&ice

Raising the discussion to morally judge someone's life (or an entire country for that matter) is another.
A point of View?

That's just it. Isn't wasn't a point of view. It was a complete overall moral judgment of character. Big difference.

Thanks F&I ,,,,,,,Better said then my expose'.

 

[questionsRus]

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On 7/18/2004 12:28:52 PM starfire wrote:

Ha ha What would you have me do to the coal? sit on them?

Last time I checked I couldn't turn them to diamonds.

Ah well, I guess we are not going to be able to convince each other of our points of view. So let's leave it at that. I don't care to continue this discussion..
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maybe because you have such a tight ^&* you could make diamonds from coal? i thought maybe you just had a problem with me, but i see now that you have a problem with everyone who has a differing opinion. maybe you shouldn't let your personal feelings get in the way so much, people respond a lot better to calm talking than getting talked crap to i think.

And Mara, I have gone over and over your buying on ebay and returning elsewhere situaiton, and can't find anything wrong with it. I agree, everyone wins. Except maybe the store you returned it to, but they don't lose either, and by allowing you to return it, you would do business with them again, am i right?

i wish i had a friend at adobe that could get me a copy for $40. if i had the money, honestly, i would buy the program. i also think they have the right to charge so much because they make such a great product. they also have definitely put the hours into making it, and deserve to be compensated. many users of photoshop are professional photographers who have huge amounts of business, and would gladly pay double their retail price for it, and many users of photoshop are home users who didn't even pay for it. Should adobe bring their price down so the average user can buy it, and lose money? prolly not, so they will continue being one of the most ripped off companies. it's too bad they don't sell it for $5 like microsoft does all their software at my school.

 

[fire&ice]

Mara,

The only thing that you should be proud of is your incredible creative rationalization skills.

But, on a humorous note, do you really think the stores don't see you coming?

. You are probably the talk of the break room. Having worked in a retail store in my early years, we knew lots of people like you. You add to our interest. Let's see - we had the wealthy socialite who would shop w/ her "companion". The companion would pay for all the stuff the socialite would stuff in her purse (this actually is not an isolated case - though I wonder if it's not crazy Southern stuff). We had the lady who would buy a dress, wear it to a function & return it. Thing about her is she had incredible B.O. We had to trash the dress. And, her social circle knew what she did. She thought she was just stylin. Actually, she wasn't the only one -just the most memorable smelling one.

Right or Wrong is sometimes a slippery slope. But, it's just not fair to return something a year later. Not only may the item be out of season. It probably is out of fashion. The store isn't making any money. It's chalked up to loss prevention. And, in the end, that loss is passed on to the consumer by way of higher prices. I pay for your inability to return an item in a timely fashion. Stores have return policies for the mass of their consumers. They don't tailor their return policies for the one person who takes advantage of it.

I'm not the moral police. I know I won't convince you that this isn't a win-win for the store. I worked in retail. I know it's not. So, your rationalizations are only working for you.

Sorry couldn't let it go. But, it doesn't make you a person of bad moral fiber. - just a bit of someone with a shopping (not returning) fetish.

But, who am I to talk? I love to shop so much - I turned it into a business.

F&I off her soapbox now.