Poll: Is it ethical/do you feel comfortable having a jeweler recreate a ring you like but can''t aff

[JHeebner]

Poll: Is it ethical/do you feel comfortable having a jeweler recreate a ring you like but can't afford or easily find locally?

YES

NO

 

[Hest88]

I don't think it's really ethical to re-create it exactly. You could also run into problems if the design is patented.

 

[treysar]

While I respect branding and realize how important brand recognition is, I od not feel guilty about attempting to re-create and existing design. #1, it's free advertising. Example - many people have a "tiffany" solitaire, but they don't have a REAL tiffany solitaire. it pumps up tiffany's elite status in my opinion. 2#, there are so many designs out there, it seems almst impossible not to be re-creating something that has already been done in 1 way or another.

I do NOT think that having a ring made and trying to pretend it's an existing brand is okay.

 

[ame]

As long as the person recreating it doesn't try to stamp that particular brand on it or copyright their version, its fine with me.

 

[kevinng]

I think it's not ethical, but I feel comfortable doing it.
I am not participating in the poll because there seems to be 2 questions put into one poll... which makes it difficult to answer.

Why do I feel comfortable? It's because the people to created the wonderful design refuse to set my wonderful diamond on their mounting, unless I buy the diamond from them.

Their diamonds are probably not as good as mine, and cost 30-40% more. Should I do it just for the mounting?

Since I really like the mounting, I took a photograph of the mounting to a good goldsmith and had it re-created.

 

[EdSkinner]

It may be unethical, but who cares. I sure don't. With all of the failed plumbers in this business that think that when they can solder a joint together entitles them to overcharge for their product because they are now "artists" I say, save as much money as you can and by the knock off, it is the american way.

 

[starfire]

So it is ok to ignore intellectual property rights if you feel like it. But it is not ok to ignore intellectual property rights if it is your own?

Sounds like hypocrisy and unethical to me. Seems to me like if Microsoft wants to find software pirates and the like, you guys are the kind of people to go for.

I certainly hope that those of you who are in favour of ripping off someone else's copyrights are not the general rule in this forum. To me, people who rip off copyrights are no better than pirates.

I had thought that Americans in general take a high moral stand on intellectual property. Perhaps I was mistaken. Then again, Abu Ghraib and Guantanemo showed the world the hypocrisy of American foreign policy, so why not intellectual property.

If you like something, don't be too cheap to pay for it.

Sorry, but I have to take a stand somewhere.

Stephen Tan
Charlotte Atelier

 

[EdSkinner]

Isn't that what Napster was all about?

 

[moremoremore]

This thread makes me giggle a little bit...are we dealing in hypotheticals here...b/c really, WHO CARES!

 

[moremoremore]

Isn't that what the entire fashion industry is about?

 

[moremoremore]

And Starfire...there is a difference b/w being "cheap" and being smart about money....

 

[questionsRus]

1) singapore is NOTORIOUS for ripping off dvd's, software, you name it. i have a friend that offered to bring back any dvd's we wanted for like $3 each.
2) you can't chew gum in singapore, HAHA. ok that was childish, but it's still funny.
3) a ring is such a small amount of surface area, unlike other forms of art, because of the size of the piece being made, there are far far fewer combinations that are possible. I don't think it's right for them to copywright or patent a setting or process, because, well, it's just not fair.
I would definitely get a ring recreated somewhere else. Especially because of HAMMER's "you have to use our diamond" point.

Seems to me like if Microsoft wants to get their software stolen, all they have to do is go to singapore.

 

[starfire]

Yes MMM, tell it to yourself more. Keep rationalising, like the way Bush repeats his mantra. I am sure that you convince yourself all the time.

It's ok to rip someone else, it is cheaper alright.

I am sorry, but it is more difficult for me to imagine ripping people off that way. Maybe it isn't for you.

This is not something we stand for here. Unless I am mistaken and Leonid feels the same way too, in which this forum is about buying stuff on the cheap and ripping intellectual property.

 

[starfire]

I am sorry questionRus, obviously you failed your geography.

The country you are struggling to name is Malaysia, which by the way is a different country from Singapore. Go back to your Geography teacher... I am not even sure you studied Geography. Do look it up in the dictionary, if you can find one.

And obviously you don't know a thing about international trade. The US just signed an FTA with Singapore (that's Free Trade Agreement for you), in which one of things that was agreed was that Singapore allows chewing gum from American gum makers.

You think that was funny, you poor soul. Obviously, you don't think about the poor cleaners earning minimum wage, cleaning the gunk off elevator buttons. But then, you are probably living so high above blue collar territory anyway. What do you care about minimum wage workers?

How typical, coming from a redneck who's probably never stepped out of his home state. Oh No, now I am coming down to YOUR level. I must restrain myself

Next time you feel the urge to flaunt your ignorance, please try to control yourself. I am struggling not to laugh even as I write this.

 

[verticalhorizon]

I see nothing wrong with copying your favorite setting designer. Brides do it with dresses all the time. People in the real world have budgets. (And if you don't have one, then maybe its time you make one!... or give me some money!)

You're not asking your jeweler to mass produce them so you can go into business. If the jeweler decides to do that, it's their neck on the line. Plus, I think someone mentioned, you're not stamping the tiffany or cartier name on it either. If people mistake it for a T or a C name, all you need to do is smirk and no one will be the wiser (or worse off).


Oh BTW: The problem with Napster was distribution. Quite simply, people were obtaining music they didn't pay for. Now clearly this is not as bad as professional pirates who copy CDs and DVDs in a warehouse and sell them on the street, but I can appreciate the artists' worry.

However, if more artists would give the old heave-ho to the multi-national conglomerate record company and went direct to consumer via the Web, then CD prices would have actually gone down since their release in the 1980s instead of going up. Thats the direct reason behind music sharing. Who wants to pay $20 for a CD that's made up of 1 or 2 singles and a bunch of filler?

Apple has the right idea with iTunes and hopefully will spark more selective and creative development of artists BEFORE making a whole album. Sorry about the rant.

 

[questionsRus]

yes, i know my geography. Like I said, I have a friend that lives in singapore, and have conversed with him at length about copied DVD's, and the like. So, don't try to lie. Even still, knowing a country does something has nothing to do with where it is geographically does it? i thought not, it's just the name. Singapore does X, who cares where Singapore is. I pitty you. Lastly, the gum chewing comment wasn't the point, however I was told that it's illegal to chew gum in public there. Keep laughing.

 

[moremoremore]

I've got more important things to feel guilty about and worry about starfire...

Oh yes, starfire you certainly have me pegged. How perceptive...WOW, you are amazing...

I never realized that one could equate political views with one's choice of ring shank...

I'm moving on to a new post...

Sorry your original post got side tracked JHeebner!

 

[starfire]

Really, last I checked, there WAS no law against the act of chewing gum specifically. Are you sure you did not know this from watching CNN? Trust me, I chew gum all the time!

And you can judge a country of 4 million people from one simple lengthy conversation with ONE guy? My god, you must be omniscient!

You sure accept "facts" pretty easily.

----------------
On 7/15/2004 2:00:08 PM questionsRus wrote:

yes, i know my geography. Like I said, I have a friend that lives in singapore, and have conversed with him at length about copied DVD's, and the like. So, don't try to lie. Even still, knowing a country does something has nothing to do with where it is geographically does it? i thought not, it's just the name. Singapore does X, who cares where Singapore is. I pitty you. Lastly, the gum chewing comment wasn't the point, however I was told that it's illegal to chew gum in public there. Keep laughing.----------------

 

[moremoremore]

I think it's too bad that a discussion and sharing of views can't be had...in an adult fashion...true ignorance comes out in many ways...

 

[starfire]

I know. I can't believe that I am reading from PS regulars that it is ok to be unethical and to rip off intellectual property. It is such a repugnant concept. that it takes a truly ignorant person to support such a stand.

I am curious... What part of "unethical" or "illegal" did you not understand?

----------------
On 7/15/2004 2:04:09 PM moremoremore wrote:

I think it's too bad that a discussion and sharing of views can't be had...in an adult fashion...true ignorance comes out in many ways...

----------------

 

[moremoremore]

Case in point.

 

[starfire]

Your point being??

----------------
On 7/15/2004 2:07:35 PM moremoremore wrote:

Case in point. ----------------

 

[questionsRus]

meh. he brings back dvd's, professionally made, bubble jet printed, with fake cases cases. each costs about $4. go through the logic yourself if you're so smart. and i would definitely never have a lengthy conversation with you, you are sarcastic, condescending to everyone that dared write their *opinion*, and you assume way too much. no law about against chewing gum specifically..."i didn't inhale". in addition, i spent hours every day with this guy, whereas it took me 5 seconds to read your post in which the first thing you do is bash. kind of easy to jump to conclusions, eh? bbc article cnn article

 

[Jolie]

I'm not a lawyer, but my impression of patents and trademarks is that (1) patents must be marked with the patent number, unless the patent owner can prove that notice of an infringement was given to the person charged with infringing the patent, who then continued after such notice to make or sell the patented product; and (2) tradmarks protect the owner from sellers whose infringment are likely to cause confusion to consumers. I'm not sure about copyright law, but I think it's like the patent, where the protected products have to be duly marked.

So I'm not sure if the ring designs I've personally looked at are really protected by copyright or patent protection - that is, I've never noticed a patent number on the few ring I've looked at (of course, I haven't been able to look at ALL ring designs in person). And if there is trademark protection (which seems more likely), then doesn't that protection only provide that a seller cannot cause consumer confusion? That doesn't seem to apply to situations where a consumer specifically requested a reproduction.

Anyway, I think a consumer who asks for a reproduction is not taking money away from the high end designer - if the consumer wasn't going to purchase the high end product anyway.

But, I could be way off base on my understanding of intellectual property. As it is, I wouldn't feel morally guilty, because I'm not confident that it's illegal. But if it is illegal for a consumer to request a reproduction of a ring not marked as patented or copyrighted, then I stand corrected.

 

[verticalhorizon]

Starfire, your Microsoft example isn't completely the same thing.

If I COPY MS Office from someone, I am stealing actual property from Microsoft.

If I use MS Office as a basic template to program my own version of a software office suite, then I am NOT stealing.

If I reach behind a jewelry counter and take a Tiffany ring, I am stealing. But if I use a Tiffany setting as a template to create a similar ring, then I am not stealing.

Alternatively, if I buy a "Tiffany" setting out of some guy's trunk, then I'm likely to have been duped. Tiffany should be going after these 'piraters' b/c they are making money from fraudulent merchandise. This is the same as the street vendors who sell CDs and DVDs.

Ethics can be subjective. It is rarely back or white. This is just my opinion.

 

[questionsRus]

vh...i think that is the smartest thing i've heard all day

 

[starfire]

Um, forgive me if your stance on law and ethics is more fluid than mine.

I just feel that it is plain unethical and illegal to rip off intellectual property. When people get defensive and make ignorant remarks about my country, I can't help but give a geography lesson...

Trust me, I have been to Malaysia and Thailand a lot more than you have. The stuff is not made in Singapore, and it is acknowledged that Malaysia has a serious VCD/DVD piracy issue. So what logic are you referring to?

The logic of listening to one "lengthy" conversation and making a judgement about an entire country?

I didn't even have to assume by the way. Some of you guys are all for ripping off other people's work!

Talk about jumping to conclusions! Who started by attacking the country of the opposing writer? Take a guess.

----------------
On 7/15/2004 2:10:49 PM questionsRus wrote:

meh. he brings back dvd's, professionally made, bubble jet printed, with fake cases cases. each costs about $4. go through the logic yourself if you're so smart. and i would definitely never have a lengthy conversation with you, you are sarcastic, condescending to everyone that dared write their *opinion*, and you assume way too much. no law about against chewing gum specifically...'i didn't inhale'. in addition, i spent hours every day with this guy, whereas it took me 5 seconds to read your post in which the first thing you do is bash. kind of easy to jump to conclusions, eh?----------------

 

[kevinng]

Calm down...

Let me set it straight.

In the past, you could get pirated VCDs very easily in Singapore. However, the authorities have clamped it down. These VCD joints were raided, and they proprietors thrown into jail.

Anyone caught with pirated VCDs or DVDs in Singapore can be fined up to SGD1000 per item.

It is very difficult to buy pirated VCDs and DVDs from the streets now. Sometimes, these illegal vendors get minors to do their dirty work because the minors cannot go to jail. But hey... you don't see them very often.

It is very easy to get it in Malaysia. They sell them in the malls. You can buy DVDs for US0.60 in Indonesia.

As for my diamond, I did go to the shop and practically begged them to set it for me in the design I wanted. They absolutely refused. So, what was I to do? I cannot bring myself to buy their diamond. Just as an illustration of how ridiculous their diamond prices are, a 0.61 E VVS1 costs USD6080 after all sorts of discounts. Mind you, these are not very special diamonds. They are just good quality H&As.

I bought a 0.62 D VVS2 from Jon for USD3600 with shipping to Singapore. With tax, it comes up to under USD3800.

I hope you won't condemn me for my decision, Stephen. I have tried.

 

[starfire]

VH,

Who is creating the demand that these pirates are satisfying? It is easy for you to say that ethics is subjective, if you are not going to be the one arrest for doing something wrong.

How can ethics be rarely black or white?

This is such a strange conversation, in such a forum like PS.

----------------
On 7/15/2004 2:15:42 PM verticalhorizon wrote:

Starfire, your Microsoft example isn't completely the same thing.

If I COPY MS Office from someone, I am stealing actual property from Microsoft.

If I use MS Office as a basic template to program my own version of a software office suite, then I am NOT stealing.

If I reach behind a jewelry counter and take a Tiffany ring, I am stealing. But if I use a Tiffany setting as a template to create a similar ring, then I am not stealing.

Alternatively, if I buy a 'Tiffany' setting out of some guy's trunk, then I'm likely to have been duped. Tiffany should be going after these 'piraters' b/c they are making money from fraudulent merchandise. This is the same as the street vendors who sell CDs and DVDs.

Ethics can be subjective. It is rarely back or white. This is just my opinion.----------------

 

[moremoremore]

"The logic of listening to one "lengthy" conversation and making a judgement about an entire country?"

Starfire....just so I understand....but it's ok that you read one post about a ring shank and it's ok to make a judgment about one's morals and political beliefs? Just checking...

Guys, seriously, this is going no where and I reported it to leonid....let's get back on track!