Please help - final decision and losing sleep ...

[mbf365]

Hi all,

I've posted here before about being torn between two diamonds, and I promise this is the last and final time I will ask for your advice!

We are deciding between two diamonds that are essentially "opposite" styles in terms of the crown and pavilion angles, as in they are at opposite ends of the ideal range. We are lost as to which style of proportions we like since we are shopping online and can't see them in person.

Essentially, we have one diamond with a 34 crown and 41 pavilion angle and the other is a 35.5 crown and 40.6 pavilion.

Which is more likely to produce better results?? We're not looking for perfect but simply the best bet out of the two. Here is a more complete breakdown of the specs (and please note that we do not have a preference for the carat size as they are close enough):

1.02
59% table
34 crown
41 pavilion
43.5 pavilion depth

1.12
57% table
35.5 crown
40.6 pavilion
43 pavilion depth

Thoughts? Which is the better cut or safer option?

 

[skypie]

I fear there isn't really a "correct answer" since it's merely a matter of preference between a 60/60 diamond and a MRB cut. You really need to see them in person to decide what you like better.

No one else can you tell you what you'll prefer.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Just going by the specs I'll pick the 1.12ct.

 

[mbf365]

I fear there isn't really a "correct answer" since it's merely a matter of preference between a 60/60 diamond and a MRB cut. You really need to see them in person to decide what you like better.

No one else can you tell you what you'll prefer.

Thanks for your response - even though I realllly want someone to just tell me which one to get haha!

Will they even look that different to the average person? If they were side by side, do you think the difference would be striking? Or would it be minor?

 

[rockysalamander]

1.12 for me. Get that one. I also think you'd see a difference in fire in the right light.

 

[Lorelei]

Hi all,

I've posted here before about being torn between two diamonds, and I promise this is the last and final time I will ask for your advice!

We are deciding between two diamonds that are essentially "opposite" styles in terms of the crown and pavilion angles, as in they are at opposite ends of the ideal range. We are lost as to which style of proportions we like since we are shopping online and can't see them in person.

Essentially, we have one diamond with a 34 crown and 41 pavilion angle and the other is a 35.5 crown and 40.6 pavilion.

Which is more likely to produce better results?? We're not looking for perfect but simply the best bet out of the two. Here is a more complete breakdown of the specs (and please note that we do not have a preference for the carat size as they are close enough):

1.02
59% table
34 crown
41 pavilion
43.5 pavilion depth

1.12
57% table
35.5 crown
40.6 pavilion
43 pavilion depth

Thoughts? Which is the better cut or safer option?

Hi Mb,

What's the clarity grades of these? If in the SI ranges, that might be the tie breaker depending if either are eye clean to your standards.

Otherwise, two different flavours with the proportions. For me, it would be the 1.12, falls within fiery ideal cut range and although you can't say for sure, it ' could' show additional fire or coloured light. The first stone could lend itself to be brighter looking at the proportions, so it depends what you want but for me the 57 table would be preferable also.

Could you get images such as ASET or a video to compare the two if they're at the same vendor?

 

[mbf365]

Hi Mb,

What's the clarity grades of these? If in the SI ranges, that might be the tie breaker depending if either are eye clean to your standards.

Otherwise, two different flavours with the proportions. For me, it would be the 1.12, falls within fiery ideal cut range and although you can't say for sure, it ' could' show additional fire or coloured light. The first stone could lend itself to be brighter looking at the proportions, so it depends what you want but for me the 57 table would be preferable also.

Could you get images such as ASET or a video to compare the two if they're at the same vendor?

Hi!!

The clarity grade of the 1.12 is VVS2 and the clarity grade of the 1.02 is VS2 so they should look the same in that respect to the naked eye (from what I've read).

The only reason I'm struggling with the 1.12 is because I keep seeing on the Internet that you should stay between 34-35 for the crown angle. So it scares me a little to go outside of that, even though I've checked on HCA and even the AGS grading charts and the 35.5/40.6 combo is said to be ideal.

 

[Lorelei]

Hi!!

The clarity grade of the 1.12 is VVS2 and the clarity grade of the 1.02 is VS2 so they should look the same in that respect to the naked eye (from what I've read).

The only reason I'm struggling with the 1.12 is because I keep seeing on the Internet that you should stay between 34-35 for the crown angle. So it scares me a little to go outside of that, even though I've checked on HCA and even the AGS grading charts and the 35.5/40.6 combo is said to be ideal.

Ok. The 34 - 35 crown angle range really is a guide and what you'd expect a Superideal diamond with top notch everything have. If you want THE best cut, all singing, all dancing diamond, then that crown angle range ( along with a strict set of other proportions) is the way to go. You won't find a SI diamond with a crown angle going either way past the 34/35 deg range usually.

Having said that, there are various proportion configurations that can work very well, case in point the 35.5/ 40.6 CP combo. The other proportions are good and on paper, it should be a beauty. If you want a true Superideal then the proportions need tightening a bit. There's considerable leeway with crown and pavilions, generally speaking, a shallower crown needs a steeper pavilion angle to balance - but you don't want the pavilion exceeding 41 deg as other issues can arise. A 32.5 crown angle can also be perfectly fine for example, it'll show less coloured light as a rule of thumb and more brilliance, but nothing wrong with that unless it's paired with a very thin girdle where there could be a potential durability issue and even then, it's on a case by case basis and if you have a trusted vendor, they can advise. For example, if the very thin part of the girdle is very small and only down into the microns, there might not be a problem at all.

Also reflector images are of immense help so you can see how well your proportion combo works.

But some don't like the idea of a shallower crown/ steeper crown/ angles outside the 34/35/40.6/41 but it depends on the buyer. A stone has to be ' mind clean' and if you want the very best bet for all round beauty and performance, the branded Super is the way to go. Otherwise, beautiful diamonds exist in all kinds of configurations and often for the average buyer or poster, it can pay to keep an open mind as we're just not seeing enough real life diamonds with a mix of proportions to truly be able to say what we definitely prefer - we think we know what we definitely prefer and that's ok. All you can do is read up, ask questions, view as many diamonds as you can then proceed as an informed buyer so your happiness is large and your regrets are small .

 

[stonewell]

If it’s any help @mbf365, I had a 33.5/40.8 stone and when I upgraded, I chose a stone that was 35.5/40.6 combo. While my first diamond was really bright, I am so much happier now with the display of fire - and I feel the stone is just as bright and sparkly. So, I voted for the 1.12ct.

I believe the 34-35 range is cited because it is safest to allow for leeway in rounding that GIA uses for the crown angles. However, if you have an idealscope and/or ASET image, you can be assured of a stone’s performance just as well. Actually, I’d also vet any that are 34-35 CAs too since GIA reports averages of all the angles.

For me, I would be more concerned that the 41 PA on the 34/41 combo may venture deeper. I’m no expert, but from what I’ve read, I believe the PA drives performance of a stone.

 

[MarionC]

I like the smaller table on the 1.12

 

[Lorelei]

If it’s any help @mbf365, I had a 33.5/40.8 stone and when I upgraded, I chose a stone that was 35.5/40.6 combo. While my first diamond was really bright, I am so much happier now with the display of fire - and I feel the stone is just as bright and sparkly. So, I voted for the 1.12ct.

I believe the 34-35 range is cited because it is safest to allow for leeway in rounding that GIA uses for the crown angles. However, if you have an idealscope and/or ASET image, you can be assured of a stone’s performance just as well. Actually, I’d also vet any that are 34-35 CAs too since GIA reports averages of all the angles.

For me, I would be more concerned that the 41 PA on the 34/41 combo may venture deeper. I’m no expert, but from what I’ve read, I believe the PA drives performance of a stone.

You are quite right about the pavilion angle being crucial Stonewell. I like to think of it as an engine which has tremendous influence over how a diamond looks and behaves, add GIA rounding and it's prudent to insist on images especially if the other numbers are hovering around the potentially steep zone too.

A pavilion angle which is bordering on steep or is outright steep - even with a shallower crown which " can' compensate - it can't compensate once the pavilion starts nudging much over 41 deg in some cases. Because then, you can get issues such as leakage as we well know, the lesser known colour entrapment and it can cause a lacklustre, darkish and visibly tinted diamond as a result, especially in the lower colour grades. On a DEF it won't obviously have such an effect with colour entrapment, H and lower, possibly, probably depending on the main pavilion angle and the angle averages to further complicate things!

Think of it like a clock perhaps, a pendulum can only swing so far before the clock stops and so it is for pavilion angles to use perhaps a silly analogy. You just don't have as much leeway with pavilion angles as with crowns and like a pendulum, it can only swing so far before the clock stops or the diamond starts having issues.

 

[mbf365]

Ok. The 34 - 35 crown angle range really is a guide and what you'd expect a Superideal diamond with top notch everything have. If you want THE best cut, all singing, all dancing diamond, then that crown angle range ( along with a strict set of other proportions) is the way to go. You won't find a SI diamond with a crown angle going either way past the 34/35 deg range usually.

Having said that, there are various proportion configurations that can work very well, case in point the 35.5/ 40.6 CP combo. The other proportions are good and on paper, it should be a beauty. If you want a true Superideal then the proportions need tightening a bit. There's considerable leeway with crown and pavilions, generally speaking, a shallower crown needs a steeper pavilion angle to balance - but you don't want the pavilion exceeding 41 deg as other issues can arise. A 32.5 crown angle can also be perfectly fine for example, it'll show less coloured light as a rule of thumb and more brilliance, but nothing wrong with that unless it's paired with a very thin girdle where there could be a potential durability issue and even then, it's on a case by case basis and if you have a trusted vendor, they can advise. For example, if the very thin part of the girdle is very small and only down into the microns, there might not be a problem at all.

Also reflector images are of immense help so you can see how well your proportion combo works.

But some don't like the idea of a shallower crown/ steeper crown/ angles outside the 34/35/40.6/41 but it depends on the buyer. A stone has to be ' mind clean' and if you want the very best bet for all round beauty and performance, the branded Super is the way to go. Otherwise, beautiful diamonds exist in all kinds of configurations and often for the average buyer or poster, it can pay to keep an open mind as we're just not seeing enough real life diamonds with a mix of proportions to truly be able to say what we definitely prefer - we think we know what we definitely prefer and that's ok. All you can do is read up, ask questions, view as many diamonds as you can then proceed as an informed buyer so your happiness is large and your regrets are small .

Thanks for elaborating on the 34-35 range! I did think about just shelling out for a branded super ideal somewhere like Whiteflash with their "A Cut Above" or even that Astor Ideals on Blue Nile to be 100% certain of what we were getting, but the jump in price is too much for us and we would have to sacrifice too many other aspects (clarity, color, carat). So with that said, I'm perfectly happy with not a super ideal, but just an ideal . It's been pretty overwhelming though to find that actual ideal diamond among the hundreds online that claim to be ideal but then when I plug the numbers in HCA and check out the angles they show up to be satisfactory .

In any case, these two diamonds are the closest I've found to actually being ideal and within our budget with the other specs that we like. Unfortunately they are through Blue Nile, which doesn't provide ASET images or anything other than the GIA certificate and video/photos. There is a nice video of the 1.12 where it looks fantastic (scroll down past the reserve message as we have it on hold): https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD08322177

There's no video of the 1.02 but there is a photo where I think I can see some obstruction (I think?):

 

[Lorelei]

I wouldn't be too worried about obstruction with the first number combo, if the pavilion was shallower and had a crown angle to match, then definitely but for this, the darkness is probably the camera and the angle/ nearness of the equipment and or the photographer/ dark clothing. If interested in this one, ask one of BN's gemologists to have a look for you to see if it visibly darkens under some viewing conditions but I would expect usually not.

But you know, you're streets ahead of the average diamond buyer and you're going to end up with a beautiful ring. It can be done most definitely, finding a beautifully cut stone which is non branded, as you've found, it just needs a bit of work.

The 1.12 does look stunning, still my pick.

 

[mbf365]

You are quite right about the pavilion angle being crucial Stonewell. I like to think of it as an engine which has tremendous influence over how a diamond looks and behaves, add GIA rounding and it's prudent to insist on images especially if the other numbers are hovering around the potentially steep zone too.

A pavilion angle which is bordering on steep or is outright steep - even with a shallower crown which " can' compensate - it can't compensate once the pavilion starts nudging much over 41 deg in some cases. Because then, you can get issues such as leakage as we well know, the lesser known colour entrapment and it can cause a lacklustre, darkish and visibly tinted diamond as a result, especially in the lower colour grades. On a DEF it won't obviously have such an effect with colour entrapment, H and lower, possibly, probably depending on the main pavilion angle and the angle averages to further complicate things!

Think of it like a clock perhaps, a pendulum can only swing so far before the clock stops and so it is for pavilion angles to use perhaps a silly analogy. You just don't have as much leeway with pavilion angles as with crowns and like a pendulum, it can only swing so far before the clock stops or the diamond starts having issues.

So keeping GIA rounding in mind, is it more risky to accept a 41 pavilion or a 40.6 pavilion? What if the 40.6 pavilion is actually closer to 40.5 ... that would be very bad, right?

 

[Lorelei]

So keeping GIA rounding in mind, is it more risky to accept a 41 pavilion or a 40.6 pavilion? What if the 40.6 pavilion is actually closer to 40.5 ... that would be very bad, right?

It's extremes really with this averaging business. If the 40.6 pavilion actually is a bit shallower than stated and the overall cut precision isn't there, then the stone might start showing issues such as obstruction but could be perfectly suited as a pendant or earring stone where obstruction isn't going to be an issue. Or if the overall cut precision is good, it might not be an issue at all, especially with a balancing crown angle. So as in all things, the proof of the proverbial pudding is in the eating, images for me are essential to evaluate these diamonds to see how well everything is working together plus the eye of a trusted vendor.

Same with a 41 deg pavilion angle, if it starts going much over, the issues I mentioned previously can start to show. Add to that a steeper crown angle and we could have the classic Steep/Deep angle combo which can show leakage, colour entrapment or even the dreaded Ring of Death in extreme cases.

That's why the very tight proportion combos are standard advice as with those, they'll get you on the putting green - if not a hole in one, which is handy for those who know they want the best cut they can get and also with the branded Superideals it makes it even easier to know you're getting a Lamborghini stone, especially if you enjoy all the analysis that goes with it and a lot of people do.

If you have time and the inclination, certainly there are other proportion combos which will get you a beautiful diamond, not up to the Lamborghini SI standards perhaps but still beautiful. The trick is to know where the lines should be drawn and if you decide to look more closely at a more ' risky' proportion combo, images and expert vendor advice are essential.

 

[mbf365]

I wouldn't be too worried about obstruction with the first number combo, if the pavilion was shallower and had a crown angle to match, then definitely but for this, the darkness is probably the camera and the angle/ nearness of the equipment and or the photographer/ dark clothing. If interested in this one, ask one of BN's gemologists to have a look for you to see if it visibly darkens under some viewing conditions but I would expect usually not.

But you know, you're streets ahead of the average diamond buyer and you're going to end up with a beautiful ring. It can be done most definitely, finding a beautifully cut stone which is non branded, as you've found, it just needs a bit of work.

The 1.12 does look stunning, still my pick.

Hi Lorelei, when you say you wouldn't be too worried about obstruction with the first number combo, are you talking about the 1.02?

 

[Lorelei]

Hi Lorelei, when you say you wouldn't be too worried about obstruction with the first number combo, are you talking about the 1.02?

Yes indeed.

 

[jdljbt]

The 1.12 IMHO is incredible. It has an ideal table and depth and the crown and pavillion angles compliment eachother and will produce great fire. You have basically found a bluenile signature without the branding and paperwork, so therefore you get it at an awesome price. I would act fast, it's awesome. Here is another amazing option:

https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond...MONDS&track=viewDiamondDetails&action=sameTab

 

[mbf365]

The 1.12 IMHO is incredible. It has an ideal table and depth and the crown and pavillion angles compliment eachother and will produce great fire. You have basically found a bluenile signature without the branding and paperwork, so therefore you get it at an awesome price. I would act fast, it's awesome. Here is another amazing option:

https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond...MONDS&track=viewDiamondDetails&action=sameTab

I know it look so beautiful in the video! We need to scoop this up today if we're going to do it. But ... I am still struggling with the angles I am very worried that the 40.6 pavilion angle could actually be a shallower due to GIA's rounding and we've looked this up on the HCA and that would not be a good combination. It says the diamond would be best for a necklace or pendant!? This is for my engagement ring. So that makes me very nervous. I guess this is why AGS certified diamonds provide better peace of mind as measurements are more accurate (so I've read).

Ugh! I almost wish I was oblivious to all these factors! Now that I know, I can't let anything go...

 

[jdljbt]

I know it look so beautiful in the video! We need to scoop this up today if we're going to do it. But ... I am still struggling with the angles I am very worried that the 40.6 pavilion angle could actually be a shallower due to GIA's rounding and we've looked this up on the HCA and that would not be a good combination. It says the diamond would be best for a necklace or pendant!? This is for my engagement ring. So that makes me very nervous. I guess this is why AGS certified diamonds provide better peace of mind as measurements are more accurate (so I've read).

Ugh! I almost wish I was oblivious to all these factors! Now that I know, I can't let anything go...

I think if you are stuggling this much with the angles, you should keep looking. I don't think you will ever be okay with it. I do think it's amazing but it needs to be mind clean to you. In the video you can actually see the amazing fire coming off of the stone. If you look at other stones with different angles, they wont have that fire. I think it is so pretty, but I value fire over brillance. The diamond will still have amazing brillance though. Did you check out the one I recommended?

 

[Lorelei]

I know it look so beautiful in the video! We need to scoop this up today if we're going to do it. But ... I am still struggling with the angles I am very worried that the 40.6 pavilion angle could actually be a shallower due to GIA's rounding and we've looked this up on the HCA and that would not be a good combination. It says the diamond would be best for a necklace or pendant!? This is for my engagement ring. So that makes me very nervous. I guess this is why AGS certified diamonds provide better peace of mind as measurements are more accurate (so I've read).

Ugh! I almost wish I was oblivious to all these factors! Now that I know, I can't let anything go...

Maybe this stone won't ever be ' mind clean' for you and that's ok. If that 40.6 PA bothers you this much now, it won't go away once you buy the stone, it'll prey on your mind, no matter what we tell you. The HCA isn't meant for stone selection, so don't overthink that.

It depends on how your mind works and what makes up your ideal stone. You're obviously someone who needs to know the proportions are within a certain tight range - nothing wrong with that!

But as you say, this is your engagement ring and your feelings about it will remain once you've moved on from here and the ring is no longer new. I'd suggest put this one on the back burner and let's perhaps look more at the Superideals or stones with different proportions that might feel better to you.

We can tell you time and time again that the stone is going to be gorgeous as far as we can tell without images, a Sarine scan and all the rest but that's not going to make any difference if you're feeling this way.

Sleep on it.

And if you feel like answering, what will make you happy about your diamond and what might bother you?