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Please help assess this idealscope image on a mounted ring

CLL

Rough_Rock
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Jan 20, 2020
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44
Hi,

Can someone help explain the below idealscope image? The ring is already mounted and taking a good photo with an iPhone is really difficult. I would like to know if that is the “ring of death.” And if there’s major issues/leakage? Is this image OK? It’s very hard to have the arrows aligned while taking a photo so please excuse the quality.

It’s in a bezel setting. It’s gia xxx.
Ring specs: table 56, crown angle 35.5 (steep and outside PS range), Pavillion 40.8, lower half 75%, star length 55%, depth 62.3%, medium faceted 3.5%.

Thank you in advance.
 

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Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
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looks good to me.
 

Karl_K

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There are a lot of nice diamonds that has some angles/%outside the range that's tossed around on here this appears to be one.
 

CLL

Rough_Rock
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Thanks Karl. I appreciate the feedback. I was nervous because it was outside the range for the crown angle. Also the HCA score is 2.5. I’m also just learning to read and use the idealscope. Not that easy for a novice.
 

Karl_K

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Thanks Karl. I appreciate the feedback. I was nervous because it was outside the range for the crown angle. Also the HCA score is 2.5. I’m also just learning to read and use the idealscope. Not that easy for a novice.
Same thing with the hca some of them that score in the 2.5 range are fine.
If the numbers are from a gia report they are grossly rounded which also makes a huge difference.
IS beats HCA most of the time.
IS is actual and HCA is predicted based on numbers that some times are not that accurate.
 

Krista Williams

Shiny_Rock
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Did you buy the tool, or did you take it to a professional jeweler?
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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That looks pretty good to me!
 

headlight

Ideal_Rock
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I bought a little Idealscope but it doesn’t make sense to me how to use it properly, let alone capture a photo!
 

Krista Williams

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 17, 2018
Messages
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I bought a little Idealscope but it doesn’t make sense to me how to use it properly, let alone capture a photo!

Where did you buy it? Can you use she idealscope to look at a diamond already set in a ring?
 

CLL

Rough_Rock
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Jan 20, 2020
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44
Where did you buy it? Can you use she idealscope to look at a diamond already set in a ring?

I bought it at David Atlas for $36 including shipping. I read from Gary’s website that you can use it on a mounted ring. Also I read from one of the post here that you can. It’s not easy to take photos. You have to be very patient. I also made my own ASET but my eyes are hurting from the idealscope images that I’ve decided to take a break for now. I’m just happy that the image is good and have received OKs from the peeps here.
 

CLL

Rough_Rock
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Jan 20, 2020
Messages
44
I bought a little Idealscope but it doesn’t make sense to me how to use it properly, let alone capture a photo!

I’m glad I’m not the only one. Capturing photos is another story.
 

headlight

Ideal_Rock
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3,293
I bought it at David Atlas for $36 including shipping. I read from Gary’s website that you can use it on a mounted ring. Also I read from one of the post here that you can. It’s not easy to take photos. You have to be very patient. I also made my own ASET but my eyes are hurting from the idealscope images that I’ve decided to take a break for now. I’m just happy that the image is good and have received OKs from the peeps here.
I purchased mine also from Dave Atlas.
 

headlight

Ideal_Rock
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I’m glad I’m not the only one. Capturing photos is another story.

From the way it looked to me, my diamond was total trash. I went back to my jeweler and he put my ring under his jewelers ASET and it didn’t look as bad as what I came up with, thankfully (I suppose for both of us).
 

Karl_K

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ASET is much easier to use on mounted stones.
If the setting is not generating enough darkness behind the diamond to generate enough contrast for leakage to show a bit of black tissue paper and your good to go.
Then you have ASET black or ASET with dark behind the diamond.
Where IS you need light behind the diamond.
 

Karl_K

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The easy way to use IS or ASET, if you dont have the light and tray or the stone is mounted is bring up a white ducument on your computer screen and use it for a backlight.
You can do the same with your phone but they are often over bright.
 

CLL

Rough_Rock
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ASET is much easier to use on mounted stones.
If the setting is not generating enough darkness behind the diamond to generate enough contrast for leakage to show a bit of black tissue paper and your good to go.
Then you have ASET black or ASET with dark behind the diamond.
Where IS you need light behind the diamond.

Karl, will any black paper work? Or instead of having my iPhone on white screen light, can I use a black or gray screen light to achieve this?

I know it’s a bit strange to be doing all this after the fact, but my only requirement from my SO was a bezel. Then I started researching about diamonds and I have started to nerd out.
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Karl, will any black paper work? Or instead of having my iPhone on white screen light, can I use a black or gray screen light to achieve this?

I know it’s a bit strange to be doing all this after the fact, but my only requirement from my SO was a bezel. Then I started researching about diamonds and I have started to nerd out.
ASET black works by no light or black right behind the diamond and light around the black area into the scope.
You dont want to use heavy paper and chance damaging the ring when your creating a light block behind it..
Honestly you dont need it, the IS image in this thread is good enough to tell the diamond is fine.
 

CLL

Rough_Rock
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Jan 20, 2020
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ASET black works by no light or black right behind the diamond and light around the black area into the scope.
You dont want to use heavy paper and chance damaging the ring when your creating a light block behind it..
Honestly you dont need it, the IS image in this thread is good enough to tell the diamond is fine.

Thanks Karl. I really appreciate your input and will be following your advice. Have a goodnight!!
 

headlight

Ideal_Rock
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3,293
Where did you buy it? Can you use she idealscope to look at a diamond already set in a ring?

I purchased from Dave Atlas, you can google him. Great man! From what I’m reading here, you can use with mounted by I’m not the person to ask! I will have to take what’s been explained here and try it again. I got both a little ASET scope and the little Idealscope.
 

sledge

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As already pointed out the IS image looks good @CLL.

Take proportions and the HCA with a grain of salt. With rounding and averaging that GIA does it gives us a ballpark but is not definitive.

The HCA then takes that manipulated data and makes generic assumptions/calculations and ignores minor facets as well. HCA is very useful to narrow the range when shopping but in your case has limited value add.

Also, if you pay attention to the wording even the HCA has wording that stones up to 2.5 can work if faceting is precise.

It appears your stone is well cut. So I would continue to do the happy dance and not worry about or question your stone.

For those asking, you can buy and use ASET, IS and H&A viewers on mounted jewelery. The caveat being you need a loose diamond to get the hearts image as it looks at the pavilion and the setting will interfere. The others examine the crown which you can work around in a setting.

IMO, the H&A viewers have limited value for mounted stones, as all you get is the arrows view. However, on loose stones the hearts image tells us quite a bit and is very useful.
 

ringo865

Ideal_Rock
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Your scope pic looks great. Good job with the photo, that is so hard to do. (Need three hands). Can you post a pic of the actual ring? I bet it is lovely. Congratulations on a great find!
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
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IMO, the H&A viewers have limited value for mounted stones, as all you get is the arrows view. However, on loose stones the hearts image tells us quite a bit and is very useful.

Please tell us what you get from hearts images that is "very useful". Using the IS and ASET have become understandable and very useful, but my own thinking for years is that hearts images are happy accidents and useful in marketing, but not diagnostic of anything of vast importance. Your thoughts would be appreciated by many readers, including me.
 

Krista Williams

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 17, 2018
Messages
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For those asking, you can buy and use ASET, IS and H&A viewers on mounted jewelery. The caveat being you need a loose diamond to get the hearts image as it looks at the pavilion and the setting will interfere. The others examine the crown which you can work around in a setting.

IMO, the H&A viewers have limited value for mounted stones, as all you get is the arrows view. However, on loose stones the hearts image tells us quite a bit and is very useful.

Im thinking about getting an ASET or IS for the diamond I will be getting next week from BN.. it will be mounted though so I am hesitant... I dont think it will be very cheap for me, with exchange and shipping to Canada.
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Please tell us what you get from hearts images that is "very useful". Using the IS and ASET have become understandable and very useful, but my own thinking for years is that hearts images are happy accidents and useful in marketing, but not diagnostic of anything of vast importance. Your thoughts would be appreciated by many readers, including me.
Oh my, that is a hardball question that is tempting me to write a book length post but I'm going to let @sledge field it.
 

CLL

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
Messages
44
As already pointed out the IS image looks good @CLL.

Take proportions and the HCA with a grain of salt. With rounding and averaging that GIA does it gives us a ballpark but is not definitive.

The HCA then takes that manipulated data and makes generic assumptions/calculations and ignores minor facets as well. HCA is very useful to narrow the range when shopping but in your case has limited value add.

Also, if you pay attention to the wording even the HCA has wording that stones up to 2.5 can work if faceting is precise.

It appears your stone is well cut. So I would continue to do the happy dance and not worry about or question your stone.

For those asking, you can buy and use ASET, IS and H&A viewers on mounted jewelery. The caveat being you need a loose diamond to get the hearts image as it looks at the pavilion and the setting will interfere. The others examine the crown which you can work around in a setting.

IMO, the H&A viewers have limited value for mounted stones, as all you get is the arrows view. However, on loose stones the hearts image tells us quite a bit and is very useful.

Thanks Sledge! I will continue to enjoy the ring. Will not be checking the ring with my diy ASET scope as I need to control myself. Ocd kicking in with all this new knowledge and data. Haha
 

CLL

Rough_Rock
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Jan 20, 2020
Messages
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Your scope pic looks great. Good job with the photo, that is so hard to do. (Need three hands). Can you post a pic of the actual ring? I bet it is lovely. Congratulations on a great find!

Thanks Ringo865. My fiancé did well. Photos are not the best but here are the pics I have so far.

photo 1 was inside the hotel room. The diamond showed pastel looking colors if I’m describing it properly. Almost looked like it was painted. Photo 2 was from the beach. Honestly my fav was how the diamond behaved while hiking in the forest. It was magical but I didn’t capture that.

C4EC2B00-4D5F-4619-A904-10EA0CCD6095.jpeg 4ABBF66D-7697-44A7-AF34-4CC37DB99F46.jpeg
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Honestly my fav was how the diamond behaved while hiking in the forest.
Awesome ring!!! Congrates!!!!
How a diamond looks in sunlight under trees blowing in the wind can be very magical.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Please tell us what you get from hearts images that is "very useful". Using the IS and ASET have become understandable and very useful, but my own thinking for years is that hearts images are happy accidents and useful in marketing, but not diagnostic of anything of vast importance. Your thoughts would be appreciated by many readers, including me.

Sorry @oldminer I have been sick and slammed at work so took me a minute to get back to this thread. I'm sure I can't do the justice to this question that @Karl_K could, but I am happy to share my understanding on the subject matter.

First, I think we should clarify that it's possible for a stone to meet AGS0, which I think most of us would agree is the best cut quality to date. This generally means a stone will have ideal light return. But it doesn't necessarily indicate the stone will have perfect H&A symmetry. Just as it's possible for a stone to have H&A symmetry but not ideal light return.

In short, they may be related, but they aren't the same. So the ASET and IS images will confirm light performance, whereas H&A images will tell us about the symmetry of the stone.

Also I feel it's pertinent to define "symmetry". Lab reports identify "meet point" symmetry which defines how the various facets meet and align around the diamond. The symmetry associated with H&A is different and known as "optical" symmetry, or 3D alignment as a few vendors like to call it. So it's quite possible to achieve GIA excellent or AGS ideal symmetry and but still not have H&A optical symmetry.

When a stone has superior light performance & 3D optical symmetry it means each stone is fine tuned so that each facet has the same size, shape, angle and azimuth so they perfectly align & overlap with one another. This creates larger virtual facets or "compounding mirrors" that increase the size of the diamond's internal reflections which consequently produce larger white & rainbow colored flashes along with sharper & more distinct contrast patterns and scintillation. It's also worth noting that while a H&A image is a static view, the benefits of optical symmetry continue throughout a range of motion & tilt.

The heart image itself tells us quite a bit about the consistency, or lack, of the pavilion angle, which is the primary driver of light return. To illustrate this I will borrow some graphics. Essentially 1/2 of a heart is created from a pavilion main reflection, whereas the other 1/2 of the heart is composed from an adjacent pavilion main reflection. In the image below, you can see how the heart is composed of the green & yellow pavilion mains. Inconsistent pavilion mains will create uneven heart patterns.

1580078252295.png

The chevrons, part below the bottom of the heart labeled as A1 (good) and F1 (bad) in the image below, is created from both the pavilion main reflections and LGF's. The chevrons are also shown in pink in the above image.

The gap between the chevrons and heart (looks like V shapes) is defined by the lower girdle facets. Numerically lower LGF's will create a smaller gap, whereas numerically higher LGF's will create a larger space. Again consistences or deficiencies will be apparent as the gaps will be either be constant or variable. These gaps are identified as A2 (good) or F2 (bad) in the image below. Also, there should be a visible gap and not just run together.

The image below also focuses on rips in the clefts of the heart, A3 (ideal) and F3 (>8% variance). This is determined by the size of the LGF's as well. It appears if this gap is over 8% it is considered to not be "true H&A" although additional reading and studying leads me to believe there are examples where +8% has no performance defects, but rather just visual preference.

1580078582610.png

Exploring the clefts further, here are some additional image examples. This also shows the effect on the arrows, which I find important as people sometimes prefer certain patterns. While no one will see the hearts image, except under a H&A scope, they could very well see the arrows pattern in daily viewing. So finding and purchasing the desired pattern would be beneficial and pleasing, although maybe not more high performing (depending on specifics of course).

1580081543062.png

A = 85% LGF's
1580081624638.png


B = 78% LGF's
1580081665314.png


C = 70% LGF's
1580081576507.png

Lastly, the lobes off the heart are squared off according to table and upper girdle facets. I would defer to @Karl_K or others for more in depth explanation about how this may affect performance. It seems to me if the table, crown angle and consequently upper girdle facets are out of whack you won't get the squared off look and we know things like smaller tables = larger upper girdle facets, which is where you get more rainbow light. I just don't know the geek speak to pull it all together.

This is illustrated in images 4a and 4b below:

1580082232356.png

So while some of the things found in a hearts image may be aesthetically pleasing, I do also believe there are performance gains as well that the hearts image tells us.
 
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