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PLEASE Help Answer about Color and Clarity

Shadow88

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
2
Hello. I need help with this, so I am hoping to get answers. Thanks!!

I have 2 diamonds that I am contemplating but don't know which to go with.

One is an "F" VVS2, Triple Excellent, Ideal Cut, 1.16 cts. (Round-Cut), Faint Fluorescence;

the other one is: "H" IF, Triple Excellent, Ideal Cut, 1.17 Cts. (Round-Cut), NO fluorescence. Both diamonds have been graded by GIA.

Which one is the best choice? I am getting these online. I called and asked 2 jewelers. One said I should go with the "F" colored diamond, while the other jeweler said to go with the "H." I don't know what is the best choice.

The difference in price is only $600 more for the "F" with the VVS2 grading. So, it's no major difference in price.

Would the VVS2 not go up in value as much as the IF (Internally Flawless) in years to come? But, will the "F" look noticeably brighter/whiter? I always want a beautiful, sparkling, bright diamond. I saw the chart from GIA on both. The "H" has no flaws since it's Internally Flawless but the "F" has a 4 needles and 3 pinpoints. I just hope that will not affect the brilliance with those inclusions.

I would appreciate any help that anyone cares to offer! :angel:
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,283
There are zero clarity issues from VS1 and higher, so I personally would never pay for IF if I had other choices. I'd rather have a larger diamond.

Cut is the most important factor in a diamond's beauty, and there is a wide variation in the cut quality within GIA Excellent. So what we need you to list for each stone is:

table
depth
crown angle
pavilion angle

diameter

If you are buying the diamond with the idea of selling it later, since you asked about value, I will tell you right now that VVS and IF will be much slower to sell than VS1-SI1.
 

ADN

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Messages
311
Shadow88|1457912663|4004650 said:
Hello. I need help with this, so I am hoping to get answers. Thanks!!

I have 2 diamonds that I am contemplating but don't know which to go with.

One is an "F" VVS2, Triple Excellent, Ideal Cut, 1.16 cts. (Round-Cut), Faint Fluorescence;

the other one is: "H" IF, Triple Excellent, Ideal Cut, 1.17 Cts. (Round-Cut), NO fluorescence. Both diamonds have been graded by GIA.

Which one is the best choice? I am getting these online. I called and asked 2 jewelers. One said I should go with the "F" colored diamond, while the other jeweler said to go with the "H." I don't know what is the best choice.

The difference in price is only $600 more for the "F" with the VVS2 grading. So, it's no major difference in price.

Would the VVS2 not go up in value as much as the IF (Internally Flawless) in years to come? But, will the "F" look noticeably brighter/whiter? I always want a beautiful, sparkling, bright diamond. I saw the chart from GIA on both. The "H" has no flaws since it's Internally Flawless but the "F" has a 4 needles and 3 pinpoints. I just hope that will not affect the brilliance with those inclusions.

I would appreciate any help that anyone cares to offer! :angel:


Hi :wavey: - a few general points as I'm in the trade and can't comment on specific stones.
Colour is a very personal choice - F is pretty much guaranteed that you won't see any colour face up and when it's set in a ring - H is a fairly safe bet that you're not going to see any colour...but it is dependant on your ability to see colour, and your tolerance to it if you do - and remember, colour is a range...so while a top end H might be fine, you could possibly see some colour in a low end H that is maybe a borderline 'I' colour (speak to your vendor about this and see if they can clarify where it sits).
A VVS grading with needles and pinpoints will not have any effect on light performance.
Please do not buy a diamond in these sizes/qualities as an 'investment' that you think might "go up in value" in years to come! Investment diamonds are a whole different ballgame from what you're considering, so don't base your decision on this at all. If you are thinking about future resale/upgrade, it might be best to go with a vendor that has some sort of a buy back program.
While both stones are graded 3xEx, you might want to have a closer look at the parameters as not all 'triple excellent' grades are created equal (other non trade PS members can give you some guidance on what they consider the best measurements for cut).
Hope this helps
 

PolarBear2006

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
21
Neither the difference in color or the clarity between the two diamonds will be noticeable to you at all. The most likely scenario is you will not be able to tell the difference between the two diamonds after they have been placed into settings.

For the average person, any color above an H will look the same in a setting. Any clarity grade higher than a VS2 will look the same in a setting.

So in short, do not worry about the brilliance or spark of the stone based on color and clarity. Since you have higher standards for the diamond, I would say look and make sure you are getting the a best cut. You have already selected triple excellent which is great, but even within Excellent there are still some better than others. If you have a link to the GIA certificates, I'm sure somebody will help guide you.

Happy Hunting!
 

ringo865

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
2,393
Curious on the grading report. How can it be triple excellent and Ideal cut? GIA uses triple excellent, while AGS uses ideal.

Who graded these stones? GIA, AGS, or the jeweler?
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
ringo865 said:
Curious on the grading report. How can it be triple excellent and Ideal cut? GIA uses triple excellent, while AGS uses ideal.

Who graded these stones? GIA, AGS, or the jeweler?
Haven't you noticed in recent times the two biggest online retailers have started using the Ideal term for GIA excellent cut diamonds as well. It's only natural a customer will follow suit.

Between F and H - Much will depend on the side stones of the setting - if the side stones are of G colour - you may not be able to tell the difference either way - however if side stones are of F colour and centre stone H - on looking very closely you may notice this.

I had a customer come in my office and showed him G next H. He wasn't able to tell difference. I'm not sure how would he react if it were F next to H though.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Round Diamonds 101:

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king. A vendor's designation as ideal of excellent is not enough.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. With round diamonds even a GIA triple Excellent is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only (HPD in Europe is good as well). EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones generally, though you can. In general, AGS0 trumps HCA though as one examines the actual stone and the other does not.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.

So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD,BE, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.

Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium. Some AGS0's are better than others though, so pay attention to any ASET or IS provided.

In general with rounds, you will want a table 60% or less. A depth between 59 and 62.4. Crown angle 33.5-35. Pavilion Angle: 40.6-40.8 (there is a little give on this). And the crown and pavilion angles must be complimentary which is what the HCA checks for you.

ON COLOR:

It is important to remember is that color is graded FACE DOWN. Where there is NO light return. Not face up where there is light return and refraction. You wear diamonds set. FACE UP.

Within one color grade, even the labs can't agree on the color grades of stones and something could be a "high" H or a "low" E. So... no. Not really. Within 2 color grades it is hard. Not impossible. But very hard. And it gets harder once set. If you are talking ideal rounds, or any stone with ideal light return and no sharp corners it gets harder still because the ideal light return masks body color.

Generally we say to be conservative stay above H in a round. But MANY people have happily bought white I or even J diamonds when trying to eek out a little more size.

This is how I think of it.

Ever gotten one of those HUGE paint fan decks? Where there are literally 100s of colors of whites? And when they are RIGHT next to each other you can TOTALLY tell that one is bluer/colder and one is a bit warmer and which one is one is TOTALLY warmer. One there's one that's slightly greener. One that's slightly pinker? But really. They are all white?

Then you pick one after agonizing over this white or that white and when it's on the walls and people are like: Oh. You painted again. And it's STILL white. Great.

And you're all... BUT it's BLUE white. Or it's a WARM white now. It used to be ____ white. It's TOTALLY different.

It's like that. You are talking about shades of white. D is colder... J is warmer. But it's all white.

YES. If you have an accurately graded F and an H THAT HAVE THE SAME PERFORMANCE you are going to be able to tell them apart when you compare them. Just like you would be able to tell if you painted your walls a warm white, but painted the crown molding a cold/straight white. But both are STILL white.


I want you notice all the qualifiers thought. I'm talking about stones with the SAME performance. An ideal H will out white an F that has compromised light performance from a poor cut.

NOTHING impacts the appearance of a diamond as much as cut. CUT is king.

You want the shinest whitest and brightest diamond out there: Cut is King. No other factor, not color or clarity or anything else impacts how white bright an shiny a stone is.

ON CLARITY:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/SI/ and http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/VS/ Generally we say that eyeclean SI1 and VS2 are as high as you need to go with round brilliants, have your vendor check the diamond for this. VS1 will always be eyeclean, but they do cost more and an eyeclean SI1 and a VS1 will look the same to the unaided eye.
 
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