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Please Check My Logic

Markos

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
8
Hello- a first post for me. I had trouble registering so hopefully I used the meantime effectively to educate myself a bit before posting.

Engagement time, and even though this ring means I don't get a new Ducati, I'm pretty excited. I've done a lot of thinking and was hoping to get some help/thoughts on where I've panned out.

Diamond: I've been looking at loose diamonds online for about a month and it is incredible how much information/opinion there is. These are the specs I'm looking for in a round diamond:
- Carat: 1.42
- Cut: Excellent/Ideal
- Clarity: SI1/VS2
- Color: G
I'm weirdly specific on the carat because her favorite number is 42. I currently have a round diamond on hold at James Allen. Here's a summary on the specs:
- 1.42/G/SI1/EX-EX-EX
- 61.3%/55%/34deg/41deg = HCA 1.3

The clarity rating is the result of a large cloud inclusion primarily under the crown. I have read extensively on this forum on the opinion of SI clarity stones potentially being "sleepy" if the only flaw is a cloud. The main takeaway for me from those conversations is there is no substitute for a trusted professional actually seeing the stone in order to give an opinion on fire and brilliance. I don't know the density of the could at this point, nor how visible it is. I believe having the cloud under the crown keeps it away from the culet, which Garry has mentioned would have the most negative effect.

As such, it seems I need to buy the diamond, view it myself, and have it appraised locally to be as sure as I can be. In the meantime, I was hoping I could get advice here on whether people think the cloud as seen in the GIA certificate is likely to effect performance based on how it looks on paper- basically, if am I missing something obvious. I have requested an Ideal Scope and that should be emailed to me this week.

Setting: This one is easier but not simple. I'm sold on the Scholdt Fremont (it helps I'm from Seattle originally). Probably this one. I do have two questions though:
(1) In speaking with a local dealer, quoted prices were way over what I saw online at Pearlmans. Potentially $1000 more for platinum. The reason was due to the fluctuating prices of precious metals in the market. Is this reasonable? Do jewelers (even small ones like Scholdt) not have a stock of these materials that they are making jewelry from and therefore a buffer before a market spike should have an effect? As an aside, I've been speaking with Julian at Pearlmans and he is extremely helpful.
(2) I'm pretty set on including a tiny ruby and sapphire on the inside of the band (our two birthstones). The size will depend on what the ring can handle, but I'm hoping .05ct/2mm each (I'm trying to cram as much significance/thoughtfulness into this thing as I can, and 10 is my favorite number- .05ct x 2 = .10ct). Does anyone have experience with this? Does gem quality matter at all at that size?

Lastly, I'm really impressed with this community- people respond very quickly and honestly. I was surprised when my friends who have already bought rings didn't know about it.

Thanks in advance!
Markus
 

Regular Guy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
5,954
If SI and a cloud is the primary grade maker...I would be cautious.

Thing is, if you're going to inspect it for an effect, who will you trust for that evaluation?

The size is good on it's face...also missing a mark up from 1.5.

But, unless you have an evaluation strategy at the outset (who will you trust to see if light performance is effective), you really might keep looking.

My thoughts.

Ira Z.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
I'd be really careful of a grade setting cloud like that. I would keep looking for a diamond.

I think you should get a qoute from Pearlmans, they have a caveat on their site that their prices are subject to change. So Pearlmans prices may be fluctuating as well. That would help you decide on the setting.

I love the idea of the surprise stones.
 

LGK

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
2,975
tyty333|1313275624|2990288 said:
Did you have JA's gemologist look at it? They can tell you what they see.

BTW...my 2 cents :wacko: I like this setting better. It looks like liquid metal...really fluid lines.
http://www.pearlmansjewelers.com/jewelry-designers/sholdt-jewelry/rings/21ZZ1/
OMG, I so much prefer this one! It's so similar but the subtle changes really *make* it- the more integrated prongs, the more fluid cathedral sides- yep, totally concur. (And it's also part of the Fremont collection as well, if you like the Seattle-neighborhood reference :tongue: )

And, yes, grade setting clouds can definitely be a problem in SI clarity- if you're evaluating it yourself, make *sure* compare it to a similar size diamond with a similarly excellent cut. Personally, I'd keep looking or at least start looking for a really good appraiser. I've used Sterling Gemological Services in Everett for evaluating antique diamonds- the owner is quite helpful and, IMO, an excellent appraiser... for antique cuts. I don't know how she is with new RBs but I suspect she's good. This is her site: http://www.sterlinggemological.com/
 

centralsquare

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,201
LGK|1313287954|2990359 said:
tyty333|1313275624|2990288 said:
Did you have JA's gemologist look at it? They can tell you what they see.

BTW...my 2 cents :wacko: I like this setting better. It looks like liquid metal...really fluid lines.
http://www.pearlmansjewelers.com/jewelry-designers/sholdt-jewelry/rings/21ZZ1/
OMG, I so much prefer this one! It's so similar but the subtle changes really *make* it- the more integrated prongs, the more fluid cathedral sides- yep, totally concur. (And it's also part of the Fremont collection as well, if you like the Seattle-neighborhood reference :tongue: )

And, yes, grade setting clouds can definitely be a problem in SI clarity- if you're evaluating it yourself, make *sure* compare it to a similar size diamond with a similarly excellent cut. Personally, I'd keep looking or at least start looking for a really good appraiser. I've used Sterling Gemological Services in Everett for evaluating antique diamonds- the owner is quite helpful and, IMO, an excellent appraiser... for antique cuts. I don't know how she is with new RBs but I suspect she's good. This is her site: http://www.sterlinggemological.com/
It's also a few hundred dollars cheaper, so another plus!
 

Markos

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
8
Thank you so much to all of you for your thoughts.

Ira- my thinking was that I could use any third party appraiser that comes with a reference or good reviews. If the appraiser knows I'm buying somewhere else, do I need to be concerned with bias?

tyty333- James Allen let me know they are running the Idealscope this week and I intend to speak with a gemologist on their end to look at it and explain any effect they might be seeing. Preferably they can view it next to a similarly cut stone without the same clouding. Either way, I know that I can only take so much from their opinion.

Gypsy- I should be hearing back from Pearlman's today on a quote from Sholdt's for the platinum setting. Maybe prices have gone up all around.

LGK- Thanks for the heads up on an appraiser. I actually live in San Francisco now, so I'm going to have to find somebody down here.

I definitely heard all your words of caution loud and clear. I'm getting a little frustrated with how long it is taking me to source a diamond, since I am trying to get this proposal done within a month, so I need to not let that have an impact on my decision making for such an expensive purchase. I'd really prefer to go the route of a well-cut (>2 HCA grade) gem with a reasonable color and then give a little on the clarity by going SI1, but i just haven't seen much with those characteristics in the almost month that I've been looking. This cloudy one would be perfect if the cloud was instead feathers or other flaws that would likely have less of an impact on light performance.

Anyway, thanks again for all your comments. Back to the search...
 

Regular Guy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
5,954
Markos|1313429678|2991316 said:
Thank you so much to all of you for your thoughts.

Ira- my thinking was that I could use any third party appraiser that comes with a reference or good reviews. If the appraiser knows I'm buying somewhere else, do I need to be concerned with bias?...

Markos, maybe you could.

Just have reference to further previous threads on the evaluation you're seeking to have done. I think from John P's point of view, the problem you're looking for is rare, but...he might say...to test for it, just do what any gemologst would do (?!), and take out some dish detergent, and do this somewhat exotic test he's talked about.

Identifying a problem that may only be thought about by cut geeks, rather than what I would assume to be a conventional gemologist is one thing. Another if finding one who could test for the possible problem, if they believed it exists.

I'd find the write up, if you're concerned enough, and ask the appraiser if he knows what you're talking about.

Being conservative, you might move on...but I hear you're under a time constraint. This one, right?

https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-search-results/105306

I've got a 16 year old, and just yesterday I was thinking about how to raise him. Now that he's about to go off to college...I'm plumb near out of time!

I would also consider going to some vendor you like, and asking them what they can find for you meeting your 1.42 requirments, plus anything else you're concerned about. It's worth a shot.

Ira Z.

P.S. (edited to add)...OK, here you go. See read this through:

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...n-si1-ideal-cut-affecting-light-return.73020/

and see if you find your neighborhood gemologist who knows what you're talking about, when you ask him or her if they'd recognize a "telltale shimmer".....
 

Regular Guy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
5,954
Markos|1313429678|2991316 said:
Thank you so much to all of you for your thoughts.


LGK- Thanks for the heads up on an appraiser. I actually live in San Francisco now, so I'm going to have to find somebody down here.
...

Ok, let's help you get started, and why don't you report back.

See your appraiser options here:

https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers/california

Nancy Stacy has a sound reputation, and occasionally pops onto this board.

I'd never before heard of Mervyn Cohn, but it seems he's been doing this long enough. Per John, he should know exactly what you need.

My suggestion: call at least these 2. Just run them by the hypothetical: a) have you ever heard of problems with an SI with a cloud constraining light performance? b) if so, are they sometimes good and sometimes not so good, c) can you tell the difference between the good & bad, and d) can you describe to me how you would do that?

Good luck!

Ira Z.
 

Regular Guy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
5,954
Being conservative, you might move on...but I hear you're under a time constraint. This one, right?

https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-search-results/105306

oops...

The one you actually have been tracking IS different, and a G.

This one, as you can see..is an I.

Not sure if you want to consider it, with the lower color. Also, as per usual, you'd want to ask if eye clean. But, especially inasmuch it is even the same dealer you've been working with, it may be easy to consider. Not sure how pricing compares, but I'd bet the G costs more. The I should be cut well. You could also ask JA to compare them, if you care. Sorry to have but in; I wish you well with this purchase. In finding this last one, I've accidentally discovered that at least some of Jim's True Hearts show up on the search by cut search template on Pricescope. It really would be good to know why some do and some don't.
 

Markos

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
8
Thanks for being so proactive on this, Ira.

Unfortunately, no one has picked up at Nancy Stacy's office (her answering machine is also full) and her email address says @gmail.com on her site but then links @appraiser.net, so I'm not sure I'll be able to reach her. Mervyn Cohn's phone number appears to be disconnected and his website is not working.

In order to try to get the ball rolling I contacted an appraiser in the south bay. She offered to look at the Idealscope when I get it and to look at the diamond online and give me her initial thoughts. Her basic take was that she would really want to see the diamond in-person and compare it to something similar in order to make the best judgment after looking at the ASET, Idealscope, etc. Which, at this point, is basically what I wanted to hear.

Also, I set up a James Allen gemologist to assess the diamond I have on hold, and they allowed me to select a similar diamond without a cloud to have an assessment so that the two could be compared. Pretty cool service, actually.

Lastly, I had read the thread(s) you directed me to, and I went in and read them again with the knowledge and opinions I've gained from everyone here. I won't pretend like everything is totally clear for how to approach this sort of potentially "sleepy" gem but I do feel more confident in how to ask questions of appraisers/jewelers.

Once again, thanks for the help.
 

Markos

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
8
While waiting for the reports from James Allen, I came across this stone on Blue Nile:
Carat: 1.52
Color: F
Clarity: SI1
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Very Good/Ex/Ex
HCA: 1.8
Dimensions: 62.7%/56%/36.0deg/40.6deg
Fluorescence: med blue

I've gone through and tried to read about HCA scores of under 2 for GIA VG cut graded diamonds and it sounds like thin girdles, out of range pavillion/crown angles, etc can have an effect. This diamond clearly falls within both the GIA and AGS outlines on the HCA graph.

Does anyone think these dimensions are out of whack? This looks like a great deal if it's eye clean (I wouldn't mind a little blue fluoro), but I'm assuming I'm missing something.
 

centralsquare

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,201
I would worry about how you'll be able to tell if it's eye clean...though BN does have a generous return policy
 

Markos

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
8
I've requested a gemologist at Blue Nile to evaluate whether or not the 1.52ct is "eye clean."

I just received a review and Idealscope from James Allen on the original diamond I posted about above. From the gemologist:

"I'm happy to say that diamond 1394123 has excellent light performance and its G color performs well. Its feather is very difficult to see and the gemologist feels that you will view this diamond as perfectly eye clean."

They are getting back to me with a review/Idealscope of a similar stone without a cloud shortly.

I know I have to see it to make the final call, but should I put some amount of faith in this review?
1394123id.jpg
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,404
Hi Markos,
My experience is that there's tremendous misunderstanding of clarity grading.
The size of an SI1 inclusion is very small.
An SI1, as graded by GIA, with a cloud being the grade setting inclusion may very well be identical to an Internally Flawless if viewed without a loupe.
In fact, it might be difficult to see a cloud of that size with the loupe.
In a very worst case scenario- say the cloud is in a spot where you can see it reflected off a large facet- it will be a very small cloud.
SO small that it's impact on the overall brilliance of the stone may be totally unaffected.
Such a stone might be preferable to an SI1 with a carbon spot- which might be far easier to see naked eye.

I am NOT speaking of any particular diamond- rather diamond grading in general.
It's of course essential to get a money back guarantee.
I would also say that getting a second opinion can't hurt- but the best an appraiser can do is:
1) assure you that the stone you got is the same stone on the GIA or AGSL report
2) tell you how much they like the stone. Which may not necessarily be the same opinion you have.
 

Markos

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
8
Thank you very much for the feedback. At this point, I think I'm going to go for it. I'll see it myself, have an appraiser take a look, and there's a 60-day return policy.

Again, I can't thank the community enough- so much of this is just creating a sense of confidence in at least knowing you are thinking about the right things.
 

Regular Guy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
5,954
The IS certainly looks great.

Though as I understand it, neither the IS nor the visibility of the inclusions are or were at issue, I don't blame you for pursuing what promises to be a lovely stone.

Best,

Ira Z.
 
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